Race,
I ran into the same problem the first time I used OA, I left my BB bearing cups in the frame..
I used a wire wheel and polished them back to good shape.
The reason this happened is OA removes rust by reacting with FE (iron) while the rust gets eaten away fast, over time with steel it will start to degrade (or etch as its known) the steel itself.
The reason its rusting again so fast is because now the outer layer of steel is porous and therefore more apt to oxidize.
OA works better on hard plated materials due to them not containing FE.
If your using it on a non plated surface I would use a very dilute solution as well as not letting it soak to long or at all. Maybe just put some solution on a brush and gently brush the rusted areas.
I have not tried it but vinegar *may* work better for this application.
Deme covered it pretty well.
But polishing will bring it back (The thread next door,
). In fact, pretty much any chemicals that will break loose rust, will also blacken iron.
Have you ever left a bunch of pop or beer cans in a cooler for a few days after the ice has melted? They start to turn black, or "Patina" and that is just melted ice water. They are aluminum alloy, and the blackening is one of the alloying metals, not the aluminum, but it's pretty much the same thing.
There are a lot of complicated reasons for these things happening. (a lot of chemical reactions) Some involving the hydrogen in the water, some involving the oxygen, some the coppers, and carbons, phosphates, and the chemicals themselves, and .....
It is actually a corrosion of it's own being formed of sorts in most cases. It's also (happily) a surface issue. It hasn't had a chance to go deep, (and may never go deep). Kind of like anodizing, or black oxide, and things like that. I've never fully researched it, but I believe what you are seeing is similar to a mild black oxide treatment.
I do know that I wouldn't stick my Kurt vice parts in it unless I really needed to. And I know that it can be polished back up to an even better finish than the ground finish they came with without too much trouble. Understanding (as you no doubt do too) that removing materials (scuffing and polishing) must be done carefully and judiciously with precision ground parts.
But chrome and nickel and low grade stainless steels, etc, are the best things to dip. Which is (once again) why we need to get that rust proofing inside the frames after they come out, as the insides are not plated.
Cheers
T
But polishing will bring it back (The thread next door,
). In fact, pretty much any chemicals that will break loose rust, will also blacken iron. Have you ever left a bunch of pop or beer cans in a cooler for a few days after the ice has melted? They start to turn black, or "Patina" and that is just melted ice water. They are aluminum alloy, and the blackening is one of the alloying metals, not the aluminum, but it's pretty much the same thing.
There are a lot of complicated reasons for these things happening. (a lot of chemical reactions) Some involving the hydrogen in the water, some involving the oxygen, some the coppers, and carbons, phosphates, and the chemicals themselves, and .....
It is actually a corrosion of it's own being formed of sorts in most cases. It's also (happily) a surface issue. It hasn't had a chance to go deep, (and may never go deep). Kind of like anodizing, or black oxide, and things like that. I've never fully researched it, but I believe what you are seeing is similar to a mild black oxide treatment.
I do know that I wouldn't stick my Kurt vice parts in it unless I really needed to. And I know that it can be polished back up to an even better finish than the ground finish they came with without too much trouble. Understanding (as you no doubt do too) that removing materials (scuffing and polishing) must be done carefully and judiciously with precision ground parts.
But chrome and nickel and low grade stainless steels, etc, are the best things to dip. Which is (once again) why we need to get that rust proofing inside the frames after they come out, as the insides are not plated.
Cheers
T
Thanks for the reply Ted and deme. I took one of the blackened pieces and started to hand polish it carefully and it did bring back the smooth/shiny chrome look back. It took a few minutes, but it did bring the OG finish back. I used some sooper dooper all metal polish that I bought at the Autorama last year. You can still see the shadows/scars where the rust was, but it's smooth and shiny.
And Ted, I think your right about what happened to me being like a "mild black oxide treatment". After looking at the pieces more, I remembered when I was a machinist we would black oxide our steel blocks and pins. When we sent them out to be done "professionaly", they would come back a nice deep, dark black color with a sort of glossy/smooth finish. Sometimes though, we would do it ourselves with a 5 gallon jug of black oxide we bought from the local industrial supply place. When we did it ourselves, the finish always came out like crap. The color was more greyish/brown and the finish was flat/matte and almost felt a little "gummy". And our do-it-yourself pieces always rusted super quick. And that's exactly what happened with the steel pieces I used the OA on. Learn something new everyday.
I still have some more steel pieces that have rust on them, but I may try just soaking them in oil and using a white Scoth-Brite or super, super fine steel wool soaked in oil and very gently rubbing on the rust. If that doesn't work, I'll do the OA and polishing.
Thanks again for your time and reply.
Brian
And Ted, I think your right about what happened to me being like a "mild black oxide treatment". After looking at the pieces more, I remembered when I was a machinist we would black oxide our steel blocks and pins. When we sent them out to be done "professionaly", they would come back a nice deep, dark black color with a sort of glossy/smooth finish. Sometimes though, we would do it ourselves with a 5 gallon jug of black oxide we bought from the local industrial supply place. When we did it ourselves, the finish always came out like crap. The color was more greyish/brown and the finish was flat/matte and almost felt a little "gummy". And our do-it-yourself pieces always rusted super quick. And that's exactly what happened with the steel pieces I used the OA on. Learn something new everyday.
I still have some more steel pieces that have rust on them, but I may try just soaking them in oil and using a white Scoth-Brite or super, super fine steel wool soaked in oil and very gently rubbing on the rust. If that doesn't work, I'll do the OA and polishing.
Thanks again for your time and reply.
Brian
Because of my initial involvement in this thread and it's subsequent controversy, I'd like to add a couple points to clarify my position and concerns. I apologize in advance to anyone who may feel offended as it is not my objective at all. To the contrary, I want to point out a few things which I feel are very important and may help people from hurting themselves or others.
Have an open mind and please consider the following to be written in earnest:
Removal of rust during BMX restoration projects is an excellent subject and has it's obvious merits. However, I feel that the dangers of using any poisonous or hazardous substance to do so, should not be overlooked or underestimated.
I commend Ted Carl for providing the idea of using Oxalic Acid to remove rust to anyone who was unaware of it's efficacy prior to his posts. In all fairness and without prejudice, I do believe some of the posts are at the very least, misleading. With the exclusion of all the satisfaction of OA proponents as a result of the general process and other helpful tips and information contained herein, I want to point out that some of the information is (although well intended, I'm sure) reckless.
In particular the following:
Post # 6: "It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge"
Post # 11: "The mixure is by experimentaion. I splash around in it without gloves."
Post #212: "Gloves, disposal, and mixture strength, etc...all been covered."
"I could add that it is similar to swimming in a pool. You shower off after a swim, and you still smell like a pool for a few hours. Same with the OA. Leaves your hands with a funky smell for a while. You have to decide for yourself."
"I don't feel its a health threat, much more than swimming in a pool with chlorine."
Post #238: Picture shows a bare hand scooping out Oxacilic Acid crystals from a container with a ruler.
Post #262: "So I guess if you accidentally eat a tablespoon full of the OA crystals, you shouldn't wash it down with milk..."
Without these particular statements having been included in this thread (and perhaps a select few other ones), I believe the general intent was an honest one.
I believe OA can be used safely with good results. However, in concern for the health and well being of any members (or guests) who read this thread, I want to stress the importance of the safety aspects when using OA.
First off, Post #314 Submitted by: 2Fresh from Helsinki, Finland, was by far the most informative of all the posts in my opinion, as to the proper safety requirements one must take into concern when using OA.
His post showed some excellent pictures that included most (if not all) the safety equipment one would need to use OA safely.
The only addition to his post that I would like to have seen added is: Any OA use should be restricted to well ventilated areas only. This is especially important as extended periods are often required to soak materials in an OA mixture.
Lastly, I want to provide some additional information regarding the actual chemical properties of Oxacilic Acid and further safety related information regarding it's use. These are not my "personal opinions". These are provided by several certifiable sources and are considered to be empirically accurate:
OXALIC ACID: A poisonous, colorless crystalline organic acid, HOOCCOOH·2H2O. Minute traces are found in many plants, such as spinach. It is sometimes used as a bleach and rust remover.
Warning: Oxalic Acid is a very powerful acid and should be treated with respect, do not be lulled into complacency. In its purified form, oxalic acid is a highly corrosive, poisonous and toxic substance.
Latex gloves should be worn at all times when using it and it should always be mixed and used in a well-ventilated area. The gasses given off are poisonous and have been suspected in causing serious health problems. Always protect your skin and wear a dust mask when mixing oxalic acid. Eye protection is a must.
A quote from a certified Bio-Chemist: "Be very careful when using oxalic acid especially in crystal form or concentrate because it is extremely poisonous. Unlike other organic acids like vinegar and citric acid which are also very effective in removing rust from metal, oxalic acid is considered a deadly poison. Yes, it is the basic substance that helps makes rubarb leaves poisonous. When using oxailc acid you should use it outdoors because it releases highly poisonous fumes. When handling or working with oxalic acid always use proper protective clothing. Rubber gloves must also be used as the toxins can be absorbed through skin contact. Prolonged exposure can result in serious health problems including kidney damage."
Have an open mind and please consider the following to be written in earnest:
Removal of rust during BMX restoration projects is an excellent subject and has it's obvious merits. However, I feel that the dangers of using any poisonous or hazardous substance to do so, should not be overlooked or underestimated.
I commend Ted Carl for providing the idea of using Oxalic Acid to remove rust to anyone who was unaware of it's efficacy prior to his posts. In all fairness and without prejudice, I do believe some of the posts are at the very least, misleading. With the exclusion of all the satisfaction of OA proponents as a result of the general process and other helpful tips and information contained herein, I want to point out that some of the information is (although well intended, I'm sure) reckless.
In particular the following:
Post # 6: "It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge"
Post # 11: "The mixure is by experimentaion. I splash around in it without gloves."
Post #212: "Gloves, disposal, and mixture strength, etc...all been covered."
"I could add that it is similar to swimming in a pool. You shower off after a swim, and you still smell like a pool for a few hours. Same with the OA. Leaves your hands with a funky smell for a while. You have to decide for yourself."
"I don't feel its a health threat, much more than swimming in a pool with chlorine."
Post #238: Picture shows a bare hand scooping out Oxacilic Acid crystals from a container with a ruler.
Post #262: "So I guess if you accidentally eat a tablespoon full of the OA crystals, you shouldn't wash it down with milk..."
Without these particular statements having been included in this thread (and perhaps a select few other ones), I believe the general intent was an honest one.
I believe OA can be used safely with good results. However, in concern for the health and well being of any members (or guests) who read this thread, I want to stress the importance of the safety aspects when using OA.
First off, Post #314 Submitted by: 2Fresh from Helsinki, Finland, was by far the most informative of all the posts in my opinion, as to the proper safety requirements one must take into concern when using OA.
His post showed some excellent pictures that included most (if not all) the safety equipment one would need to use OA safely.
The only addition to his post that I would like to have seen added is: Any OA use should be restricted to well ventilated areas only. This is especially important as extended periods are often required to soak materials in an OA mixture.
Lastly, I want to provide some additional information regarding the actual chemical properties of Oxacilic Acid and further safety related information regarding it's use. These are not my "personal opinions". These are provided by several certifiable sources and are considered to be empirically accurate:
OXALIC ACID: A poisonous, colorless crystalline organic acid, HOOCCOOH·2H2O. Minute traces are found in many plants, such as spinach. It is sometimes used as a bleach and rust remover.
Warning: Oxalic Acid is a very powerful acid and should be treated with respect, do not be lulled into complacency. In its purified form, oxalic acid is a highly corrosive, poisonous and toxic substance.
Latex gloves should be worn at all times when using it and it should always be mixed and used in a well-ventilated area. The gasses given off are poisonous and have been suspected in causing serious health problems. Always protect your skin and wear a dust mask when mixing oxalic acid. Eye protection is a must.
A quote from a certified Bio-Chemist: "Be very careful when using oxalic acid especially in crystal form or concentrate because it is extremely poisonous. Unlike other organic acids like vinegar and citric acid which are also very effective in removing rust from metal, oxalic acid is considered a deadly poison. Yes, it is the basic substance that helps makes rubarb leaves poisonous. When using oxailc acid you should use it outdoors because it releases highly poisonous fumes. When handling or working with oxalic acid always use proper protective clothing. Rubber gloves must also be used as the toxins can be absorbed through skin contact. Prolonged exposure can result in serious health problems including kidney damage."
Frankly, I am now thoroughly unamused at your continuing banter on this topic.
Yes, in pure crystal form, Oxalic Acid is very concentrated, and must be handled with care. We all get that. "Licking your fingers and dipping them into OA crystals might be an extremely unpleasant deal".
That's how you started into this, and you still are not satisfied that people that do vintage restorations have any ability to think for themselves.
Do you work for OSHA?
Or, maybe you are the "Natural deselection guy" that wants to be in charge of putting these decals on our VBMX bikes? Because without these decals, most of us would have never made it to our 18th birthday!
Honestly, you keep stirring up this pot, and now you are to the point of putting a disclaimer at the beginning of your posts.
But then you start poking away.
What? Are we potty training 2 year olds with autism? What part about "not licking your finger and dipping it into the crystals" can't people understand?
In fact, you have taken all my quotes completely out of context. That means you separated them from the whole paragraphs, which gives them new meanings, and separated them from the rest of the clarifications I made.
Yeah, I said that! But the rest of the sentence said
Have we had a rash of OA deaths in the community lately? Serious burns, and chronic illnesses from using it? What the hell are you after here?
I also said somewhere else, "That just because it doesn't bother me, and because I have no adverse reactions to it, doesn't mean I am going to reccomend to anybody here, that you shouldn't wear the safety gear to protect yourself."
But you conveinently leave these things out to make your case! What is your case, and your motives anyway? To save everyone from this evil chemical?
You say you are not trolling, but you are, and I am personally fed up with your passive aggressive BS. No more back pedaling, no more BS, what do you want from everyone here? To make sure people won't eat OA? Fine, thank you. Or do you want the glamor and fame that comes from being a hero and saving us all from ourselves?
Honestly, find something better to do other than saving us all from ourselves. The irony here, lies in the fact that there is more risk of injury or death to ourselves from actually riding the VBMX bikes we are building at our age!
...Riding a BMX bike is dangerous! So DON'T do it!
...Some of us in the real world deal with chemicals like isocyanates, MEK, Tri-chloroethylene, petroleum distillates of all kinds, Halons, et al, on a daily basis. You, with all your undies in such a bundle, apparently are afraid of Oxalic Acid to no end..... Then don't use it! It is just that simple.
...Personally, I could tell everyone here all about Terratogens, Mutagens, Carcinogens, Flash Point, Fire Point, Vapor Density, Lower Explosive Limits, Latent Heat of Vaporization, Volatile Organic Compounds, and I could tell them all about how to put a magnesium fire out using Purple K vs. Halons. I could also define the terms: Prolonged Exposure, Engineering Controls, Permissible Exposure Limit, Threshold Limit Value, and describe in great detail the differences between Acute and Chronic Exposures. I could define the difference between a vapor and a fume for everyone....
And you know what? I can also spell imbecile without looking it up!
.... But what would be the point of doing so? If you are not smart enough to be able to read the label on the product, and you want to eat the stuff, or take a bath in it, so be it! IF the USA, FDA, and OSHA mandated labels on the packaging are not to your satisfaction, then go lobby it to Congress.
It is no different than ANY of the MILLIONS of products you pass by in the hardware store, in fact, YOU BUY IT THERE! So move on down the aisle, and pick another product on the shelf, and start spreading all your wisdom about their hazards, and the proper use of PPE's,(That stands for; Personal Protection Equipment.) and warn everyone who uses them of all their hazards, but do it somewhere else.
Don't eat OA crystals, Don't get the crystals on you. Don't get OA in your eyes. Don't huff the vapors. How complicated is it? If you do eat it, or burn your skin with it, or feel dizzy from the vapors, or get it in your eyes, the call someone who cares, do this by dialing 911! Or.... PM Mongoosedrummer.
Jeeze man, I mean ...really.
Have you beaten this dead horse enough yet? Or, maybe with a few more smacks, maybe it will get the results you are after here?
Yes, in pure crystal form, Oxalic Acid is very concentrated, and must be handled with care. We all get that. "Licking your fingers and dipping them into OA crystals might be an extremely unpleasant deal".
QUOTE
Stay Away from Oxalic Acid - Seriously!, The hype is over
This Oxalic Acid hype has got to end, seriously... For the sake of the environment and your bank account!!!
This Oxalic Acid hype has got to end, seriously... For the sake of the environment and your bank account!!!
That's how you started into this, and you still are not satisfied that people that do vintage restorations have any ability to think for themselves.
Do you work for OSHA?
Or, maybe you are the "Natural deselection guy" that wants to be in charge of putting these decals on our VBMX bikes? Because without these decals, most of us would have never made it to our 18th birthday!
Honestly, you keep stirring up this pot, and now you are to the point of putting a disclaimer at the beginning of your posts.
QUOTE
I apologize in advance to anyone who may feel offended as it is not my objective at all. To the contrary, I want to point out a few things which I feel are very important and may help people from hurting themselves or others.
But then you start poking away.
QUOTE
I commend Ted Carl for providing the idea of using Oxalic Acid to remove rust to anyone who was unaware of it's efficacy prior to his posts. In all fairness and without prejudice, I do believe some of the posts are at the very least, misleading.
What? Are we potty training 2 year olds with autism? What part about "not licking your finger and dipping it into the crystals" can't people understand?
In fact, you have taken all my quotes completely out of context. That means you separated them from the whole paragraphs, which gives them new meanings, and separated them from the rest of the clarifications I made.
QUOTE
Post # 11: "The mixure is by experimentaion. I splash around in it without gloves."
Yeah, I said that! But the rest of the sentence said
QUOTE
but it doesnt burn you at that concentration....
Am I wrong? Does it chemically burn you when dilute? Have we had a rash of OA deaths in the community lately? Serious burns, and chronic illnesses from using it? What the hell are you after here?
I also said somewhere else, "That just because it doesn't bother me, and because I have no adverse reactions to it, doesn't mean I am going to reccomend to anybody here, that you shouldn't wear the safety gear to protect yourself."
But you conveinently leave these things out to make your case! What is your case, and your motives anyway? To save everyone from this evil chemical?
You say you are not trolling, but you are, and I am personally fed up with your passive aggressive BS. No more back pedaling, no more BS, what do you want from everyone here? To make sure people won't eat OA? Fine, thank you. Or do you want the glamor and fame that comes from being a hero and saving us all from ourselves?
Honestly, find something better to do other than saving us all from ourselves. The irony here, lies in the fact that there is more risk of injury or death to ourselves from actually riding the VBMX bikes we are building at our age!
...Riding a BMX bike is dangerous! So DON'T do it!
...Some of us in the real world deal with chemicals like isocyanates, MEK, Tri-chloroethylene, petroleum distillates of all kinds, Halons, et al, on a daily basis. You, with all your undies in such a bundle, apparently are afraid of Oxalic Acid to no end..... Then don't use it! It is just that simple.
...Personally, I could tell everyone here all about Terratogens, Mutagens, Carcinogens, Flash Point, Fire Point, Vapor Density, Lower Explosive Limits, Latent Heat of Vaporization, Volatile Organic Compounds, and I could tell them all about how to put a magnesium fire out using Purple K vs. Halons. I could also define the terms: Prolonged Exposure, Engineering Controls, Permissible Exposure Limit, Threshold Limit Value, and describe in great detail the differences between Acute and Chronic Exposures. I could define the difference between a vapor and a fume for everyone....
And you know what? I can also spell imbecile without looking it up!
.... But what would be the point of doing so? If you are not smart enough to be able to read the label on the product, and you want to eat the stuff, or take a bath in it, so be it! IF the USA, FDA, and OSHA mandated labels on the packaging are not to your satisfaction, then go lobby it to Congress.
It is no different than ANY of the MILLIONS of products you pass by in the hardware store, in fact, YOU BUY IT THERE! So move on down the aisle, and pick another product on the shelf, and start spreading all your wisdom about their hazards, and the proper use of PPE's,(That stands for; Personal Protection Equipment.) and warn everyone who uses them of all their hazards, but do it somewhere else.
Don't eat OA crystals, Don't get the crystals on you. Don't get OA in your eyes. Don't huff the vapors. How complicated is it? If you do eat it, or burn your skin with it, or feel dizzy from the vapors, or get it in your eyes, the call someone who cares, do this by dialing 911! Or.... PM Mongoosedrummer.
Jeeze man, I mean ...really.
Have you beaten this dead horse enough yet? Or, maybe with a few more smacks, maybe it will get the results you are after here?
Ted, this is your title: "Oxalic Acid. Removing rust from Chrome the very best way!"
IMO it should have read: "Using Oxalic Acid to remove Rust"
If you want to purport the benefits of using a poisonous acid (above all others) to the general public, you have a responsibility to explaine the dangers of the product first and foremost.
Innocent people were asking you if it was safe to use and you made serious mistakes in your advice. I'm not afraid to point that out and I've done that. The true poisonous nature of the product was very much downplayed in all your posts. You never once suggested wearing eye protection for instance... You've been downplaying the dangerous aspects of it all along. That needed to be addressed. Sure, I knew I would take some flack for it, but change is good.
This site has people of all ages reading it as you know. Imagine some 14 year old kid who reads your thread and then decides to try out some OA and starts "slashing around in it without gloves""? All because you said it was OK? Telling people "It's not toxic to the best of my knowledge"... Etc, etc, etc. You were so way off-base in that regard it's unbelievable. If my son was the person splashing around in OA without gloves because of your suggestions and got some in his eyes or whatever... Guess what? BINGO! I'd sue you and possibly the site. It's totally misleading information and you are not above being challenged on it. Was that explained in "layman's terms" enough for you Ted?
I've only tried to suggest some safer alternatives and not chastise you too harshly for the misleading and dangerous parts of this thread.
Again, both distilled white vinegar and citric acid powder work just as well and you know it. They are much easier to find too. Ask any beer can refurbisher these days. You surely still have friends in that business right? Are you still doing that? Anyhow, most of them have switched from using OA to Citric Acid. Again IMO, you're way out of date on your rust removal techniques and completely irresponsible in your delivery as to what is the safe/correct use of Oxalic Acid...
IMO it should have read: "Using Oxalic Acid to remove Rust"
If you want to purport the benefits of using a poisonous acid (above all others) to the general public, you have a responsibility to explaine the dangers of the product first and foremost.
Innocent people were asking you if it was safe to use and you made serious mistakes in your advice. I'm not afraid to point that out and I've done that. The true poisonous nature of the product was very much downplayed in all your posts. You never once suggested wearing eye protection for instance... You've been downplaying the dangerous aspects of it all along. That needed to be addressed. Sure, I knew I would take some flack for it, but change is good.
This site has people of all ages reading it as you know. Imagine some 14 year old kid who reads your thread and then decides to try out some OA and starts "slashing around in it without gloves""? All because you said it was OK? Telling people "It's not toxic to the best of my knowledge"... Etc, etc, etc. You were so way off-base in that regard it's unbelievable. If my son was the person splashing around in OA without gloves because of your suggestions and got some in his eyes or whatever... Guess what? BINGO! I'd sue you and possibly the site. It's totally misleading information and you are not above being challenged on it. Was that explained in "layman's terms" enough for you Ted?
I've only tried to suggest some safer alternatives and not chastise you too harshly for the misleading and dangerous parts of this thread.
Again, both distilled white vinegar and citric acid powder work just as well and you know it. They are much easier to find too. Ask any beer can refurbisher these days. You surely still have friends in that business right? Are you still doing that? Anyhow, most of them have switched from using OA to Citric Acid. Again IMO, you're way out of date on your rust removal techniques and completely irresponsible in your delivery as to what is the safe/correct use of Oxalic Acid...
Jesus dude, drop it and get over it. Just for that I'm going to double the amount of Oxalic acid crystals I put in my next bike bath.
QUOTE (Nighthawk @ Oct 24 2008, 12:07 AM) 
Jesus dude, drop it and get over it. Just for that I'm going to double the amount of Oxalic acid crystals I put in my next bike bath.
Blasphemy does not behoove you or anyone Light-squawk.
Notwithstanding the fact that you have added absolutely nothing of any perceptible value to this discussion, your health is just as important as anyone's.
If you are actually going to play around with OA, just make sure to wear latex gloves, proper eye protection, a mask, and make sure to use it outside where the poisonous fumes won't hurt you or your family.
Again, don't forget you can use Citric Acid powder (also called "sour salt") in the very same manner, it's easily obtained, it's just as cheap, even more effective and extremely safe by
comparison.
I'm sure you already know about vinegar. It's also just as effective and very safe.
God bless.
DO NOT QUOTE ME FALSELY!!! ......Just because YOU do NOT understand technical terms, do NOT try and falsely re-edit my quotes!
I DID NOT SAY THAT AT ALL!!! YOU ARE EDITING MY QUOTES FALSELY, AND PURPOSELY MISDIRECTING THEIR MEANING!
I NEVER said it was NOT TOXIC!!!!! You putz!
What I DID say' was that I did not believe it was classified as a HAZARDOUS MATERIAL! And we have PROVEN >>>>TO YOU<<< and provided links to the government sources, that the US government does NOT consider it a Hazardous Waste material, and they RECCOMEND you POUR IT DOWN THE DRAIN in smaller quantities! I DID NOT say that "OA is not TOXIC" as your FALSELY EDITED MY QUOTE, TO YOUR LIKING, ABOVE!!!!
I said this ON PAGE ONE! Cut and pasted EXCACLTY as it was stated!
....DON'T drink it. DON'T get it in your eyes! ....not ENVIRONMENTALLY unsafe!!!! You Putz!!!!
Why did I say this? Because the bottle said it was poisonous, and it is an acid that you should PREVENT it from getting into your eyes! So quit LYING about what you THINK you read. Read it again putz!
The term HAZARDOUS is a very specific term! Which you apparently have no clue about! Used motor oil IS toxic, IS a health hazard, CAN cause cancer in lab rats, but used motor oil is NOT considered a Hazardous waste by definition! Neither is Oxalic Acid! That doesn't mean that it is safe to eat!
The fact is, that WE HAVE been posting links to the MSDS on this thread since page 7 or before!
We debated discrepancies in the labels for cases of poisonous ingestion as early as PAGE ONE!
You also took MY REAL QUOTE and edited out >>>you removed<<<< the entire SAFEY part of it !! You conveniently left off the part where I said this!
When in doubt, gloves are better. THAT IS WHAT I SAID. You putz!
You also fail to include the many other member's contributions to the thread such as;
Do I need to repeat everything that is already said in a thread? A thread is a combined effort.
There are PHOTOGRAPHS of safety equipment being used with the OA baths on this thread!
Must I REPEAT every photograph that others contributed to the thread too before they become valid information on a thread!??
On PAGE 17 I went into great detail about storing and handling of potentially dangerous chemicals, and the importance of safely storing them in your home, and I even posted PHOTOS of safer cabinets that are well worth the money, and I even suggested they are kept locked! Not only to keep out little people, but to help contain hot expanding gasses if a fire should start inside by not allowing the doors to blow open! You putz!
Now you say that "I am completely irresponsible" and you throw threats of LAWSUITS AT ME AND VBMX!!!??? You sir, are a lying troll, and you do not belong in this fine community IMO.
And you even say "MY TITLE FOR THE THREAD IS WRONG!? What is wrong with you and your self righteous skewed antics !?
I have news for you, your kid can look up thousands of blueprints, and complete instructions, on how to make everything from pipe bombs, to thermonuclear explosive devices on the Internet! GET A CLUE! Nobody has misrepresented ANYTHING here, except YOU!
Now you suggest people use LATEX gloves for safety too! And you are completely ignorant on the topic of safety gloves!
Have you researched this?
Are you aware that there are DOZENS of types of rubber gloves, and that MANY of them will NOT protect you from many chemicals? Are you aware that MEK DOES penetrate a LATEX glove in SECONDS? Are you sure that a LATEX glove will protect you from Oxalic Acid? How thick of a glove should this LATEX GLOVE be? How long before the OA will penetrate into your SAFE glove and onto your skin? What if your glove accidentally gets filled with OA crystals that fall into the back of the glove, or if you accidentally submerge your glove too deeply into the solution?
Your QUALITY safety advice seems to be irresponsible and completely out of date!
Before you decide to burn someone down with a game of "Stump the Chump", I suggest you know your subject matter first.
For my LAST visual representation on this very annoying topic. (albeit probably very amusing to read, lmao!)
I shall title it: "Which would you consider more dangerous to use, and which one would you emphasize, more so, the importance of safety when discussing?" Which would you consider an extreme health hazard? A or B ?
2 spoons full of unknown crystals. Mixed in exactly one US cup of water. (One spoon is slightly fuller)
Riders ready pedals set! One set of Vintage BMX parts going in!
Fast forward ten minutes or so...
Removed from the mystery baths....Wow, one of them is smoking and giving off choking vapors! One of the parts is not looking so good either!
Hey, I know that dude, you're Mr Hand!.
.... Oh noooooh, it's Mr. Hand, run Mr Bill, run! ...... Tsssssss! You evil safety hazard you!
So what are these scary mixtures anyway?
Well, the one on the left (the one with the fuller spoon full of crystals) is a very potent mixture of Oxalic Acid, and the one on the right is ...Drain Cleaner? Do you mean we can pour that nasty one on the right, down the drain, and into the water system! and destroy the world? OMG!!!!! Say it isn't so! The one on the left is the topic of Mongoosedrummer's "destruction of ourselves, and our world, with the extremely dangerous OA chemical antics". This can't be!
Wait, I want to see that closer, this is trick photography, a ruse of some sort! Do you mean to tell me that LESS crystals of one substance can do MORE damage, and make a MORE potent mixture than another!? ....Well, gee Wally, let me think about that one for a minute.
Maybe a dilute mixture of Oxallic Acid is not extremely dangerous when dilute after all!? Maybe nobody has "downplayed" anything? Maybe the chemicals that we use, such as "Sodium Bicarbonate" or "Lye" that EVERYONE here uses, is FAR mor dangerous to use, and therefore we DON"T ever take it's use lightly, or without serious safety constraints employed!
How about you get on a Sodium Bicarbonate warpath! Ooooh, wouldn't that be fun!
NOW this thread has EVERYTHING! We have DRAMA! lol
For Sale: one set of almost NOS Sunshine hubs.
Cheers all....
I DID NOT SAY THAT AT ALL!!! YOU ARE EDITING MY QUOTES FALSELY, AND PURPOSELY MISDIRECTING THEIR MEANING!
QUOTE
Telling people "It's not toxic to the best of my knowledge".
I NEVER said it was NOT TOXIC!!!!! You putz!
What I DID say' was that I did not believe it was classified as a HAZARDOUS MATERIAL! And we have PROVEN >>>>TO YOU<<< and provided links to the government sources, that the US government does NOT consider it a Hazardous Waste material, and they RECCOMEND you POUR IT DOWN THE DRAIN in smaller quantities! I DID NOT say that "OA is not TOXIC" as your FALSELY EDITED MY QUOTE, TO YOUR LIKING, ABOVE!!!!
I said this ON PAGE ONE! Cut and pasted EXCACLTY as it was stated!
QUOTE
Pull the plug in the laundry room sink! It cleans the pipes on it's way out! lol
It is just an Oxidizer. Spray it on your deck, rinse it off. It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge. The container says nothing about it being environmentally unsafe.
Dont drink it, dont wash your eyes out with it, etc..
It is just an Oxidizer. Spray it on your deck, rinse it off. It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge. The container says nothing about it being environmentally unsafe.
Dont drink it, dont wash your eyes out with it, etc..
....DON'T drink it. DON'T get it in your eyes! ....not ENVIRONMENTALLY unsafe!!!! You Putz!!!!
Why did I say this? Because the bottle said it was poisonous, and it is an acid that you should PREVENT it from getting into your eyes! So quit LYING about what you THINK you read. Read it again putz!
The term HAZARDOUS is a very specific term! Which you apparently have no clue about! Used motor oil IS toxic, IS a health hazard, CAN cause cancer in lab rats, but used motor oil is NOT considered a Hazardous waste by definition! Neither is Oxalic Acid! That doesn't mean that it is safe to eat!
The fact is, that WE HAVE been posting links to the MSDS on this thread since page 7 or before!
We debated discrepancies in the labels for cases of poisonous ingestion as early as PAGE ONE!
You also took MY REAL QUOTE and edited out >>>you removed<<<< the entire SAFEY part of it !! You conveniently left off the part where I said this!
QUOTE
Chemical exposure creates many opinions, and the stubborn ones, that wont wear a respirator for painting usually die young.
I don't feel its a health threat, much more than swimming in a pool with chlorine. But I can't tell someone else that they wont get dermatitis from repeated exposure....Know what I mean?
When in doubt, gloves are better.
I don't feel its a health threat, much more than swimming in a pool with chlorine. But I can't tell someone else that they wont get dermatitis from repeated exposure....Know what I mean?
When in doubt, gloves are better.
When in doubt, gloves are better. THAT IS WHAT I SAID. You putz!
You also fail to include the many other member's contributions to the thread such as;
QUOTE
Wear some disposable autopsy gloves , eye protection , remove your watch too.
Wash your hands & forearms clean straight after all the "wet work" is done , you are not working with something as nasty as a caustic soda mix to strip annodising but it is considered "good practice" to always treat chemical with respect & work safe + clean with them.
Wash your hands & forearms clean straight after all the "wet work" is done , you are not working with something as nasty as a caustic soda mix to strip annodising but it is considered "good practice" to always treat chemical with respect & work safe + clean with them.
Do I need to repeat everything that is already said in a thread? A thread is a combined effort.
There are PHOTOGRAPHS of safety equipment being used with the OA baths on this thread!
Must I REPEAT every photograph that others contributed to the thread too before they become valid information on a thread!??
On PAGE 17 I went into great detail about storing and handling of potentially dangerous chemicals, and the importance of safely storing them in your home, and I even posted PHOTOS of safer cabinets that are well worth the money, and I even suggested they are kept locked! Not only to keep out little people, but to help contain hot expanding gasses if a fire should start inside by not allowing the doors to blow open! You putz!
Now you say that "I am completely irresponsible" and you throw threats of LAWSUITS AT ME AND VBMX!!!??? You sir, are a lying troll, and you do not belong in this fine community IMO.
And you even say "MY TITLE FOR THE THREAD IS WRONG!? What is wrong with you and your self righteous skewed antics !?
I have news for you, your kid can look up thousands of blueprints, and complete instructions, on how to make everything from pipe bombs, to thermonuclear explosive devices on the Internet! GET A CLUE! Nobody has misrepresented ANYTHING here, except YOU!
Now you suggest people use LATEX gloves for safety too! And you are completely ignorant on the topic of safety gloves!
Have you researched this?
Are you aware that there are DOZENS of types of rubber gloves, and that MANY of them will NOT protect you from many chemicals? Are you aware that MEK DOES penetrate a LATEX glove in SECONDS? Are you sure that a LATEX glove will protect you from Oxalic Acid? How thick of a glove should this LATEX GLOVE be? How long before the OA will penetrate into your SAFE glove and onto your skin? What if your glove accidentally gets filled with OA crystals that fall into the back of the glove, or if you accidentally submerge your glove too deeply into the solution?
Your QUALITY safety advice seems to be irresponsible and completely out of date!
Before you decide to burn someone down with a game of "Stump the Chump", I suggest you know your subject matter first.
For my LAST visual representation on this very annoying topic. (albeit probably very amusing to read, lmao!)
I shall title it: "Which would you consider more dangerous to use, and which one would you emphasize, more so, the importance of safety when discussing?" Which would you consider an extreme health hazard? A or B ?
2 spoons full of unknown crystals. Mixed in exactly one US cup of water. (One spoon is slightly fuller)
Riders ready pedals set! One set of Vintage BMX parts going in!
Fast forward ten minutes or so...
Removed from the mystery baths....Wow, one of them is smoking and giving off choking vapors! One of the parts is not looking so good either!
Hey, I know that dude, you're Mr Hand!.
.... Oh noooooh, it's Mr. Hand, run Mr Bill, run! ...... Tsssssss! You evil safety hazard you!
So what are these scary mixtures anyway?
Well, the one on the left (the one with the fuller spoon full of crystals) is a very potent mixture of Oxalic Acid, and the one on the right is ...Drain Cleaner? Do you mean we can pour that nasty one on the right, down the drain, and into the water system! and destroy the world? OMG!!!!! Say it isn't so! The one on the left is the topic of Mongoosedrummer's "destruction of ourselves, and our world, with the extremely dangerous OA chemical antics". This can't be!
Wait, I want to see that closer, this is trick photography, a ruse of some sort! Do you mean to tell me that LESS crystals of one substance can do MORE damage, and make a MORE potent mixture than another!? ....Well, gee Wally, let me think about that one for a minute.
Maybe a dilute mixture of Oxallic Acid is not extremely dangerous when dilute after all!? Maybe nobody has "downplayed" anything? Maybe the chemicals that we use, such as "Sodium Bicarbonate" or "Lye" that EVERYONE here uses, is FAR mor dangerous to use, and therefore we DON"T ever take it's use lightly, or without serious safety constraints employed!
How about you get on a Sodium Bicarbonate warpath! Ooooh, wouldn't that be fun!
NOW this thread has EVERYTHING! We have DRAMA! lol
For Sale: one set of almost NOS Sunshine hubs.
Cheers all....
I meant to say Sodium Hydroxide, BTW. But I was thinking about the Sodium Bi-carbonate which neutralizes the OA. The two usually walk hand in hand when I am playing with OA, so putting Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) in the same sentence didn't click in my brain until it was too late, and I mistyped that detail above... My bad.
BTW, I have something reallllly scary to add here. And Halloween is a great time for scary stuff!
Since the Oxalic Acid is an acid, and since Sodium Hydroxide is a base, I mixed the 2 together to bring them both closer to neutral. ...... before I diluted it heavily, and poured it into the earth.
Shhh, don't tell on me.
Oops, I almost forgot.....Always add the acid to the water. Otherwise the acid can splash you and get on your skin and also if it is a concentrated acid, as you dilute it, a lot of heat is generated, and you want the larger volume of water to be able to absorb that heat. Safety first.
And of course, "don't try this at home". EVER, "we are trained professionals".
BTW, I have something reallllly scary to add here. And Halloween is a great time for scary stuff!
Since the Oxalic Acid is an acid, and since Sodium Hydroxide is a base, I mixed the 2 together to bring them both closer to neutral. ...... before I diluted it heavily, and poured it into the earth.
Shhh, don't tell on me.
Oops, I almost forgot.....Always add the acid to the water. Otherwise the acid can splash you and get on your skin and also if it is a concentrated acid, as you dilute it, a lot of heat is generated, and you want the larger volume of water to be able to absorb that heat. Safety first.
And of course, "don't try this at home". EVER, "we are trained professionals".
back to the topic....
i finally tried it out and im hooked.... i got a tub for now that only fits 1/2 of a frame at a time.... im gonna get a better one this weekend.
1st try...... vector bars
before
after
im definately happy with the results...
i finally tried it out and im hooked.... i got a tub for now that only fits 1/2 of a frame at a time.... im gonna get a better one this weekend.
1st try...... vector bars
before
after
im definately happy with the results...
next up was a nasty, dirty, rusted kuwi..... it had bad rust. i dunked it for a few days and got some results that were better then anticipated
2Fresh from Helsinki, Finland was the one who posted the picture of proper safety wear for mixing OA, not you Ted. Give credit where credit is due. It took 314 posts for that to appear in your thread. He was the only one who properly addressed that issue by way of his picture. I've already stated that. You were coming from a completely opposite direction until I piped in here. You downplayed the dangers of Oxalic Acid up until now and were very wrong in your original advice. Not good...
BTW, what's up with all this "Putz" stuff? Calling me names? Hurling personal insults? I thought you were a grown man discussing restoration opinions? Is anger and abusive behavior another side effect of over use of OA? Did I really misquote a little word from one of your your reckless posts? Was it the word "Toxic"? Did you mean to say, it's is "Toxic" but certainly not "Hazardous"? Wow... That's really confusing Ted, just like your other misinformation.
Here's your exact quote again just to clarify, Post # 6: "It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge" But you now agree it is "Toxic"? Hmm...
Post # 11: "The mixure is by experimentaion. I splash around in it without gloves." Great advice to the general public. Not. Was that a misquote?
You can't change what you wrote Ted and you know you were dead wrong, no matter how desperate, abusive and verbose you become in your defense. It's interesting to see you now FLAMING wildly and calling me names. You seem to have totally lost your composure and what appears to be a good chunk of inflated ego over this, maybe that's not so bad... It's probably quite healthy. You needed to be corrected that's all. You are very far from being a scientist and you may want to stick within your boundaries for a while, polishing nuts and bolts, building model airplanes, collecting rusty beer cans and that sort of thing.
I'm glad I pointed out the true serious health risks of OA and everything else which was reckless and misleading in your posts regarding it's safe/proper use. No matter how many of your "fans" come to your defense or try to challenge or insult me, the change has been set. There are much better alternatives, period.
In complete fairness, I sort of like your polishing posts Ted (although I find them monotonous), but the OA misinformation just really needed to be addressed. Don't get too worked up about it, it's all just a correction on your delivery within one thread... Speaking of this thread, I would like to know more about your incredible methods for polishing paint (post #2)? What about your miracle product LPS-3? Where did you buy it and how do you use it again? Any pictures of when you used it and how?
Again, I know you really like collecting old rusty beer cans and cleaning them. Have you read this? It's another person who collects and cleans old rusty beer cans. He seems a little more up to date on rust removal methods and has also switched from using OA to Citric Acid powder: http://members.aol.com/mrbeercan/cleaning.html
BTW, what's up with all this "Putz" stuff? Calling me names? Hurling personal insults? I thought you were a grown man discussing restoration opinions? Is anger and abusive behavior another side effect of over use of OA? Did I really misquote a little word from one of your your reckless posts? Was it the word "Toxic"? Did you mean to say, it's is "Toxic" but certainly not "Hazardous"? Wow... That's really confusing Ted, just like your other misinformation.
Here's your exact quote again just to clarify, Post # 6: "It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge" But you now agree it is "Toxic"? Hmm...
Post # 11: "The mixure is by experimentaion. I splash around in it without gloves." Great advice to the general public. Not. Was that a misquote?
You can't change what you wrote Ted and you know you were dead wrong, no matter how desperate, abusive and verbose you become in your defense. It's interesting to see you now FLAMING wildly and calling me names. You seem to have totally lost your composure and what appears to be a good chunk of inflated ego over this, maybe that's not so bad... It's probably quite healthy. You needed to be corrected that's all. You are very far from being a scientist and you may want to stick within your boundaries for a while, polishing nuts and bolts, building model airplanes, collecting rusty beer cans and that sort of thing.
I'm glad I pointed out the true serious health risks of OA and everything else which was reckless and misleading in your posts regarding it's safe/proper use. No matter how many of your "fans" come to your defense or try to challenge or insult me, the change has been set. There are much better alternatives, period.
In complete fairness, I sort of like your polishing posts Ted (although I find them monotonous), but the OA misinformation just really needed to be addressed. Don't get too worked up about it, it's all just a correction on your delivery within one thread... Speaking of this thread, I would like to know more about your incredible methods for polishing paint (post #2)? What about your miracle product LPS-3? Where did you buy it and how do you use it again? Any pictures of when you used it and how?
Again, I know you really like collecting old rusty beer cans and cleaning them. Have you read this? It's another person who collects and cleans old rusty beer cans. He seems a little more up to date on rust removal methods and has also switched from using OA to Citric Acid powder: http://members.aol.com/mrbeercan/cleaning.html
Brian, I forgot to say your stuff looks great...
Not sure exactly if it was OA you said you had used. If it was, I'm glad to see you used it outdoors. As you may have heard... The fumes are poisonous.
No doubt OA works pretty well, but if you want to try something else just as good (without the poisonous fumes etc.), check out Citric Acid powder (or sour salt). You can find it easily even at grocery stores (Whole Foods always has it) and you will get the same results if not better.
Plus, you can use it indoors without the risks associated with OA.
Not sure exactly if it was OA you said you had used. If it was, I'm glad to see you used it outdoors. As you may have heard... The fumes are poisonous.
No doubt OA works pretty well, but if you want to try something else just as good (without the poisonous fumes etc.), check out Citric Acid powder (or sour salt). You can find it easily even at grocery stores (Whole Foods always has it) and you will get the same results if not better.
Plus, you can use it indoors without the risks associated with OA.
COKE vs. PEPSI ^^^^
IMHO.
Go and ride your bikes guys...this is silly.
No ones been hurt in a horrific Oxalic acid accidnet, have they?
That being said, I might try the other method based ONLY on the fact they are a little easier to find than OA.
IMHO.
Go and ride your bikes guys...this is silly.
No ones been hurt in a horrific Oxalic acid accidnet, have they?
That being said, I might try the other method based ONLY on the fact they are a little easier to find than OA.
FW, lmao...
For anyone who really does want to see an MSDS on DILUTE mixtures of OA, and not the ones that have been listed here for PURE OA crystals, here are 2 samples. Click links for the full deal. I have cut and pasted some of the pertinent data as it pertains to our use of OA .
If you ever want to look more of them up, the CAS number for Oxalic Acid is 144-62-7
MSDS for: 5% solution of Oxalic Acid and Water. (a fairly potent mixture for our uses IMO)
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/oxalic_acid-0.1M.htm
Hazards;
Eye: May cause eye irritation. May result in corneal injury.
Skin: Causes skin irritation. May cause irritation with pain and stinging, especially if the skin is abraded.
(Stings in open cuts, ...sounds familiar.)
Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract.
Remedies;
Eyes: Flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, occasionally lifting the upper and lower eyelids. Get medical aid immediately.
Skin: Get medical aid if irritation develops or persists. Flush skin with plenty of soap and water.
Ingestion: Do NOT induce vomiting. If conscious and alert, rinse mouth and drink 2-4 cupfuls of milk or water.
(Not known to cause cancer)
Carcinogenicity:
CAS# 144-62-7: Not listed by ACGIH, IARC, NIOSH, NTP, or OSHA. CAS# 7732-18-5: Not listed by ACGIH, IARC, NIOSH, NTP, or OSHA.
Clean Air Act:
This material does not contain any hazardous air pollutants. This material does not contain any Class 1 Ozone depletors. This material does not contain any Class 2 Ozone depletors.
Clean Water Act:
None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Hazardous Substances under the CWA. None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Priority Pollutants under the CWA. None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Toxic Pollutants under the CWA.
OSHA:
None of the chemicals in this product are considered highly hazardous by OSHA.
....Another MSDS for dilute Oxalic Acid mixed with water.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6043.htm
(Ratings; Provided here for your convenience by the manufacturer) (Not a required field)
Health Rating: 2 - Moderate
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 2 - Moderate
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; PROPER GLOVES
(You will notice here that THEY default to goggles, not safety glasses, and they also know there are many different kinds of gloves, and THEY don't want to go out on any limbs, they want YOU to do the research and choose which ones for yourself, so they use the word "Proper". If you file a claim on them, they can say; "Your gloves were not the "proper" gloves! They know better than to suggest safety gear details, only what is required by law for them to disclose. IOW, THEY won't tell you which gloves to use, therefore, I'm certainly not about to! It is in fact up to you guys to keep yourselves safe, and learn how it read and interpret the information available to us. )
Potential Health Effects
Health hazard information for dilute solution of this material is not available. The hazard information is based on that of pure oxalic acid (anhydrous and dihydrate). Hazards from dilute solutions are expected to be reduced.
Inhalation:
Inhalation of mist or vapor may cause irritation and burns to mucous membranes of the respiratory tract.
(NOTE: To inhale this, it either has to be used in very hot steaming water, which the label tells you NOT to do, sprayed into the air as a mist, or dispersed as a powder into the air.) (We are not doing any of the above.) Inhalation, therefore, really does not apply for our purposes.
Ingestion:
Corrosive. Toxic. May cause burns of the mouth and esophagus, nausea, gastroenteritis and shock. Absorption can occur causing systemic poisoning. Symptoms may include headache, weak pulse, and muscle cramps. May cause kidney damage. Severe poisoning may be fatal. Estimated fatal dose of oxalic acid is 5-15 grams.
Skin Contact:
An irritant to the skin. May cause redness, pain, and burns to the skin. May be absorbed through the skin.
(Yep, it may be absorbed through the skin, just like most everything else on the planet. However, eating rhubarb will cause ingestion of OA as well. The dosage you receive is proportional to the duration of the contact, and the potency of the mixture. Everyone must decide this for themselves. This is something that can be viewed as a chronic category)
Eye Contact:
Splashes may cause severe irritation and possible eye damage.
Chronic Exposure:
(Chronic means long term repeated exposures, such as working with it on a daily basis at your job.)
(Acute means instant),
Prolonged inhalation of mist may cause inflammation of upper respiratory tract (we are not breathing any mists). Skin contact may cause dermatitis. May cause kidney damage, dermatitis, cyanosis of the fingers, and possible ulceration. (These are all chronic conditions.)
(Dermatitis, funny, that possibility was mentioned on page one, lol)
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems or impaired respiratory or kidney function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.
I am also aware of some bogus information on OA producing Odorless, colorless FUMES.
Here is the definition of a Fume from the MSDS library: A fume or fumes refers to vapors (gases), dusts and/or smoke given off by a substance as a result of a chemical transformation such as reaction, heating, explosion or detonation.
"Fumes" generally conveys the idea that the cloud is an irritating, hazardous and/or toxic substance
Fumes come from welding, soldering, chemical reactions, etc... The Sodium Hydroxide reaction above is a classic example of noxious fumes. The OA bath is not.
Anyway, there is no more troll feeding allowed. lol.
School is out, back to building and restoring bikes with OA.....
Cheers, and thanks for all the great PM's and EM's you guys rock!
T
For anyone who really does want to see an MSDS on DILUTE mixtures of OA, and not the ones that have been listed here for PURE OA crystals, here are 2 samples. Click links for the full deal. I have cut and pasted some of the pertinent data as it pertains to our use of OA .
If you ever want to look more of them up, the CAS number for Oxalic Acid is 144-62-7
MSDS for: 5% solution of Oxalic Acid and Water. (a fairly potent mixture for our uses IMO)
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/oxalic_acid-0.1M.htm
Hazards;
Eye: May cause eye irritation. May result in corneal injury.
Skin: Causes skin irritation. May cause irritation with pain and stinging, especially if the skin is abraded.
(Stings in open cuts, ...sounds familiar.)
Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract.
Remedies;
Eyes: Flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, occasionally lifting the upper and lower eyelids. Get medical aid immediately.
Skin: Get medical aid if irritation develops or persists. Flush skin with plenty of soap and water.
Ingestion: Do NOT induce vomiting. If conscious and alert, rinse mouth and drink 2-4 cupfuls of milk or water.
(Not known to cause cancer)
Carcinogenicity:
CAS# 144-62-7: Not listed by ACGIH, IARC, NIOSH, NTP, or OSHA. CAS# 7732-18-5: Not listed by ACGIH, IARC, NIOSH, NTP, or OSHA.
Clean Air Act:
This material does not contain any hazardous air pollutants. This material does not contain any Class 1 Ozone depletors. This material does not contain any Class 2 Ozone depletors.
Clean Water Act:
None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Hazardous Substances under the CWA. None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Priority Pollutants under the CWA. None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Toxic Pollutants under the CWA.
OSHA:
None of the chemicals in this product are considered highly hazardous by OSHA.
....Another MSDS for dilute Oxalic Acid mixed with water.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6043.htm
(Ratings; Provided here for your convenience by the manufacturer) (Not a required field)
Health Rating: 2 - Moderate
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 2 - Moderate
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT; PROPER GLOVES
(You will notice here that THEY default to goggles, not safety glasses, and they also know there are many different kinds of gloves, and THEY don't want to go out on any limbs, they want YOU to do the research and choose which ones for yourself, so they use the word "Proper". If you file a claim on them, they can say; "Your gloves were not the "proper" gloves! They know better than to suggest safety gear details, only what is required by law for them to disclose. IOW, THEY won't tell you which gloves to use, therefore, I'm certainly not about to! It is in fact up to you guys to keep yourselves safe, and learn how it read and interpret the information available to us. )
Potential Health Effects
Health hazard information for dilute solution of this material is not available. The hazard information is based on that of pure oxalic acid (anhydrous and dihydrate). Hazards from dilute solutions are expected to be reduced.
Inhalation:
Inhalation of mist or vapor may cause irritation and burns to mucous membranes of the respiratory tract.
(NOTE: To inhale this, it either has to be used in very hot steaming water, which the label tells you NOT to do, sprayed into the air as a mist, or dispersed as a powder into the air.) (We are not doing any of the above.) Inhalation, therefore, really does not apply for our purposes.
Ingestion:
Corrosive. Toxic. May cause burns of the mouth and esophagus, nausea, gastroenteritis and shock. Absorption can occur causing systemic poisoning. Symptoms may include headache, weak pulse, and muscle cramps. May cause kidney damage. Severe poisoning may be fatal. Estimated fatal dose of oxalic acid is 5-15 grams.
Skin Contact:
An irritant to the skin. May cause redness, pain, and burns to the skin. May be absorbed through the skin.
(Yep, it may be absorbed through the skin, just like most everything else on the planet. However, eating rhubarb will cause ingestion of OA as well. The dosage you receive is proportional to the duration of the contact, and the potency of the mixture. Everyone must decide this for themselves. This is something that can be viewed as a chronic category)
Eye Contact:
Splashes may cause severe irritation and possible eye damage.
Chronic Exposure:
(Chronic means long term repeated exposures, such as working with it on a daily basis at your job.)
(Acute means instant),
Prolonged inhalation of mist may cause inflammation of upper respiratory tract (we are not breathing any mists). Skin contact may cause dermatitis. May cause kidney damage, dermatitis, cyanosis of the fingers, and possible ulceration. (These are all chronic conditions.)
(Dermatitis, funny, that possibility was mentioned on page one, lol)
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems or impaired respiratory or kidney function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.
I am also aware of some bogus information on OA producing Odorless, colorless FUMES.
Here is the definition of a Fume from the MSDS library: A fume or fumes refers to vapors (gases), dusts and/or smoke given off by a substance as a result of a chemical transformation such as reaction, heating, explosion or detonation.
"Fumes" generally conveys the idea that the cloud is an irritating, hazardous and/or toxic substance
Fumes come from welding, soldering, chemical reactions, etc... The Sodium Hydroxide reaction above is a classic example of noxious fumes. The OA bath is not.
Anyway, there is no more troll feeding allowed. lol.
School is out, back to building and restoring bikes with OA.....
Cheers, and thanks for all the great PM's and EM's you guys rock!
T
Ah... but we must remember that the Oxalic Acid industry is lining the pockets of OSHA... and hence the government coverup of the true hazards of O.A. ...
*puts on tin foil hat*
*puts on tin foil hat*
Faust, LMAO! Ted, more paste and copy still doesn't make you a scientist. Oh and thanks for the veiled insult... pathetic. Step away from your Kraft Dinner for a minute and read on in case you want to actually learn something new:
I recently found an almost perfect size commercial plastic container for my frames at Lowe's made by Rubbermade. It's much better than my old homemade "box/tray with plastic"...
It cost $17.00 has wheels and a lid (the lid doesn't really fit air-tight). You can see it on Rubbermaid's website:
http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/produ...Id=HPProd280059
I was able to fit a 20" rusty old Mongoose frame (on it's side), (1) slightly rusted Redline V bars and (1) rusty tube fork in it easily. I used some large rocks to take up the extra space and reduce the amount of liquid I needed to a minimum. Even with the rocks, it required exactly 13 gallons to fully submerge everything including the rear of the frame. I used white distilled vinegar. 10 x 1.3 Gallons (or 5 Litres)... It cost just under $30.00
Cost seems to be the big dilemma regarding what liquid/product to use for de-rusting parts for most people. Then it seems to be the toxicity. Of course, it also has to work well.
Cost, efficacy (effectiveness) and toxicity. These three factors really seem to be what matters most. Here's my comparison guide between Vinegar, Oxalic Acid and Citric Acid:
COST: Distilled White Vinegar @ $2.99 per 1.3 Gallons www.costco.com---------- straight to 13 Gallons = $30.00
COST: Oxalic Acid Powder @ $9.25 per 16 ounces http://www.cheap-chemicals.com ------------- 2.8 ounces per Gallon x 13 Gallons = slightly over 3 pounds = $27.75
COST: Citric Acid Powder @ $3.95 per 16 ounces http://www.dharmatrading.com/products/cit.html ----------------2.8 ounces per Gallon x 13 Gallons = slightly over 3 pounds = $11.85
EFFECACY: I've used all three and I can honestly say they are all very much equal. Depending on the severity of the rust and with plenty of intermittent scrubbing, all three work very well usually under a maximum time of 48 hours.
TOXICITY: Distilled White Vinegar is not poisonous. It does not smell pleasant.
TOXICITY: Oxalic Acid Powder is poisonous. Oxalic Acid gives off odorless poisonous fumes during usage.
TOXICITY: Citric Acid is not poisonous. It has no odor but smells faintly of lemon/oranges when diluted.
I recently found an almost perfect size commercial plastic container for my frames at Lowe's made by Rubbermade. It's much better than my old homemade "box/tray with plastic"...
It cost $17.00 has wheels and a lid (the lid doesn't really fit air-tight). You can see it on Rubbermaid's website:
http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/produ...Id=HPProd280059
I was able to fit a 20" rusty old Mongoose frame (on it's side), (1) slightly rusted Redline V bars and (1) rusty tube fork in it easily. I used some large rocks to take up the extra space and reduce the amount of liquid I needed to a minimum. Even with the rocks, it required exactly 13 gallons to fully submerge everything including the rear of the frame. I used white distilled vinegar. 10 x 1.3 Gallons (or 5 Litres)... It cost just under $30.00
Cost seems to be the big dilemma regarding what liquid/product to use for de-rusting parts for most people. Then it seems to be the toxicity. Of course, it also has to work well.
Cost, efficacy (effectiveness) and toxicity. These three factors really seem to be what matters most. Here's my comparison guide between Vinegar, Oxalic Acid and Citric Acid:
COST: Distilled White Vinegar @ $2.99 per 1.3 Gallons www.costco.com---------- straight to 13 Gallons = $30.00
COST: Oxalic Acid Powder @ $9.25 per 16 ounces http://www.cheap-chemicals.com ------------- 2.8 ounces per Gallon x 13 Gallons = slightly over 3 pounds = $27.75
COST: Citric Acid Powder @ $3.95 per 16 ounces http://www.dharmatrading.com/products/cit.html ----------------2.8 ounces per Gallon x 13 Gallons = slightly over 3 pounds = $11.85
EFFECACY: I've used all three and I can honestly say they are all very much equal. Depending on the severity of the rust and with plenty of intermittent scrubbing, all three work very well usually under a maximum time of 48 hours.
TOXICITY: Distilled White Vinegar is not poisonous. It does not smell pleasant.
TOXICITY: Oxalic Acid Powder is poisonous. Oxalic Acid gives off odorless poisonous fumes during usage.
TOXICITY: Citric Acid is not poisonous. It has no odor but smells faintly of lemon/oranges when diluted.
THe trolls are crawling out from under the rocks again.
QUOTE (BMXProducts @ Oct 26 2008, 05:59 PM)
THe trolls are crawling out from under the rocks again.
THe, THe THe, above post has no relative information. What can you add on THe THe process of rust removal BMX Products?
namedroppers abound...
insert "Skip Hess" anywhere it is relevant.
QUOTE
n. 1. Someone who pretends that famous people are his/her friends. Someone who namedrops.
insert "Skip Hess" anywhere it is relevant.
QUOTE
Name Dropper
by ComputerBob
March 5, 1998
Have you ever been in the presence of a true name dropper? I'm talking about someone who can't tell a story about any part of their life without casually mentioning that some famous person was somehow involved in it.
When I was working as a consultant at a local company a few years ago, there was a young man named Dan who worked in the same department who was the worst name dropper I've ever seen. At every meeting, no matter how big or small, he'd find a way to drop a famous name or two, on every occassion, even when asking a question. "I have a question. I was at the blah, blah conference last Friday, and I had lunch with Bill Gates, and Bill said to me, 'blah, blah', and that makes me wonder if blah, blah..." I was tempted to raise my hand and say "Was that YOU that had lunch with Bill Gates last Friday? When I had dinner with him on his yacht that night, he complained about how BORING his lunch had been!"
My father-in-law, Rev. Paul M., is a pretty humble man, but he has one of the best "brush with greatness" stories I've ever heard. While driving through the Princeton University campus one day in the 1940's he saw Dr. Albert Einstein walking along the side of the road. Paul pulled over to the side of the road and called out, "Hey, would you like a ride?" The great genius replied, "No, thanks!"
I am definitely not a name dropper. I freely admit that I've had very few direct brushes with famous people. As a matter of fact, I've only met two famous people in my whole life: Randy, the lead singer of the country band Alabama, and famous rock guitarist, Phil Keaggy.
I met Randy back in the early '80s, when I worked for a public television station in Toledo, Ohio, and Alabama was performing there one night. At a press conference in which our station's on-air personality didn't show up, the job fell to me, so I raised my hand to ask the band a question. Randy immediately expressed delight to the room that I was wearing jeans and a casual shirt, unlike all the other reporters who were in suits and ties. After the press conference, I went up and talked to him for a few minutes and he gave me a signed photograph, which I still have in an album.
I met Phil Keaggy three different times at three different concerts. That's no major coup on my part -- Phil often takes a break during his co-headliner's set and just walks out into the crowd to listen to the band and visit with anyone who sees that he's there. Anyway, the first time I met Phil was back in the mid-1970's in a gymnasium in Toledo, Ohio. I shook his hand and told him that his guitar playing was in such a different league than my own that I didn't even want to tell people that I played the guitar any more. Phil told me, "There's always going to be someone better than you and someone not as good as you. But you're the only you."
You know, now that I've thought this thing through, maybe I am a name dropper. Last week, while visiting friends with my wife, our hostess asked me if I'd like a cold drink. I casually replied,
"Well, as Albert Einstein once said to my father-in-law, 'No, thanks!'"
by ComputerBob
March 5, 1998
Have you ever been in the presence of a true name dropper? I'm talking about someone who can't tell a story about any part of their life without casually mentioning that some famous person was somehow involved in it.
When I was working as a consultant at a local company a few years ago, there was a young man named Dan who worked in the same department who was the worst name dropper I've ever seen. At every meeting, no matter how big or small, he'd find a way to drop a famous name or two, on every occassion, even when asking a question. "I have a question. I was at the blah, blah conference last Friday, and I had lunch with Bill Gates, and Bill said to me, 'blah, blah', and that makes me wonder if blah, blah..." I was tempted to raise my hand and say "Was that YOU that had lunch with Bill Gates last Friday? When I had dinner with him on his yacht that night, he complained about how BORING his lunch had been!"
My father-in-law, Rev. Paul M., is a pretty humble man, but he has one of the best "brush with greatness" stories I've ever heard. While driving through the Princeton University campus one day in the 1940's he saw Dr. Albert Einstein walking along the side of the road. Paul pulled over to the side of the road and called out, "Hey, would you like a ride?" The great genius replied, "No, thanks!"
I am definitely not a name dropper. I freely admit that I've had very few direct brushes with famous people. As a matter of fact, I've only met two famous people in my whole life: Randy, the lead singer of the country band Alabama, and famous rock guitarist, Phil Keaggy.
I met Randy back in the early '80s, when I worked for a public television station in Toledo, Ohio, and Alabama was performing there one night. At a press conference in which our station's on-air personality didn't show up, the job fell to me, so I raised my hand to ask the band a question. Randy immediately expressed delight to the room that I was wearing jeans and a casual shirt, unlike all the other reporters who were in suits and ties. After the press conference, I went up and talked to him for a few minutes and he gave me a signed photograph, which I still have in an album.
I met Phil Keaggy three different times at three different concerts. That's no major coup on my part -- Phil often takes a break during his co-headliner's set and just walks out into the crowd to listen to the band and visit with anyone who sees that he's there. Anyway, the first time I met Phil was back in the mid-1970's in a gymnasium in Toledo, Ohio. I shook his hand and told him that his guitar playing was in such a different league than my own that I didn't even want to tell people that I played the guitar any more. Phil told me, "There's always going to be someone better than you and someone not as good as you. But you're the only you."
You know, now that I've thought this thing through, maybe I am a name dropper. Last week, while visiting friends with my wife, our hostess asked me if I'd like a cold drink. I casually replied,
"Well, as Albert Einstein once said to my father-in-law, 'No, thanks!'"
I don't know where this troll gets his math from. I only need about two tablespoons of OA to create an effective bath. So, let's see, my quart container of OA cost $11 at the hardware store. So, 2/64ths of $11.00 = .35 cents. Oh yeah, I'm going to run out right now and buy 30 gallons of vinegar which isn't any safer or better for the environment. Vinegar is a (approx.) 5% diluted solution of acetic acid, which in higher doses can and will cause serious burns. Go ahead, splash some in your eye, tell me how wonderful it is. In either case regardless of what you use, all you need is a little baking soda to neutralize the solution before disposal and it is resolved.
What a tool. Someone find the rock this nut came out from under and lift it back up so he can crawl back in. Nothing you say is going to change anything.
which isn't any safer or better for the environment. Vinegar is a (approx.) 5% diluted solution of acetic acid, which in higher doses can and will cause serious burns. Go ahead, splash some in your eye, tell me how wonderful it is. In either case regardless of what you use, all you need is a little baking soda to neutralize the solution before disposal and it is resolved. What a tool. Someone find the rock this nut came out from under and lift it back up so he can crawl back in. Nothing you say is going to change anything.
It already has changed everything... That's why the TC sychophants are all whining away...
2 tablespoons to make an effective bath? LMAO!!! That's really funny. A bath for what? Your Barbie-Doll? Come on man, re-read the post. I'm talking about soaking an entire frame which I just did today, again. Go check out some of posts on OS-BMX. It's all there from what I did today. I have novel ways to safely remove rust from metal that would make your empty head spin... I've never even brought some of them up here. Light-Squawk have you really ever soaked an entire frame in anything? Your fantasizing bro... You're totally full of BS, get a grip.
You can call me names like little schoolboys, who cares? I don't even complain to the mods about it... I'm a man. I can handle the name calling... It's actually quite funny. I'm in the UFC Championships of rust removal and people are tapping out everyday. I opened with a huge Vinegar round-house right to the head and I'll stay with my ground and pound use of Citric Acid Powder for now. Don't turn your backs because I have more moves on the way...
Basically, I'm changing the idea of OA being the BEST way to remove rust. I love the challenge because I know I'm right and that in the end, many people will have learned a better way. BTW, the calculations I used were actually from Ted Carl because I knew the weak minded followers would challenge me on it. Replace OA for Citric Acid Powder and you will be amazed!!! It's totally safer, cheaper and works better. Vinegar works just as well but may cost around the same as an OA bath of the same amount. I'm really all about the Citric Acid being the absolute BEST way to remove rust. It is actually better than vinegar, which is better than OA.
"BMX Products" you are the absolute biggest troll I've ever seen around here.. You have come to this thread to play little head games and throw insults. You have added zero to the subject. That places you well below anyone here I've encountered. You are a newbie (or a former member who wanted to change his ID most likely) hiding behind some weird anxiety over who knows what. Try adding some insight or at least debate regarding the subject at hand. At least "Night-Squawk" has focused some of his words back to the point of rust removal. I'm starting to like the guy...
Anyhow, I don't mind scrapping with anyone on this subject, anyone at all. Why? I find it important to let people know that OA is not the best way to remove rust and that it is very toxic and poisonous. If only a handful of people get the point, well then that's the seed of change I'm after. I'm planting the change and I won't give up. I always fight for change for the better. If I take some girly man flack from faceless internet cowards during the process, that's totally fine with me.
2 tablespoons to make an effective bath? LMAO!!! That's really funny. A bath for what? Your Barbie-Doll? Come on man, re-read the post. I'm talking about soaking an entire frame which I just did today, again. Go check out some of posts on OS-BMX. It's all there from what I did today. I have novel ways to safely remove rust from metal that would make your empty head spin... I've never even brought some of them up here. Light-Squawk have you really ever soaked an entire frame in anything? Your fantasizing bro... You're totally full of BS, get a grip.
You can call me names like little schoolboys, who cares? I don't even complain to the mods about it... I'm a man. I can handle the name calling... It's actually quite funny. I'm in the UFC Championships of rust removal and people are tapping out everyday. I opened with a huge Vinegar round-house right to the head and I'll stay with my ground and pound use of Citric Acid Powder for now. Don't turn your backs because I have more moves on the way...
Basically, I'm changing the idea of OA being the BEST way to remove rust. I love the challenge because I know I'm right and that in the end, many people will have learned a better way. BTW, the calculations I used were actually from Ted Carl because I knew the weak minded followers would challenge me on it. Replace OA for Citric Acid Powder and you will be amazed!!! It's totally safer, cheaper and works better. Vinegar works just as well but may cost around the same as an OA bath of the same amount. I'm really all about the Citric Acid being the absolute BEST way to remove rust. It is actually better than vinegar, which is better than OA.
"BMX Products" you are the absolute biggest troll I've ever seen around here.. You have come to this thread to play little head games and throw insults. You have added zero to the subject. That places you well below anyone here I've encountered. You are a newbie (or a former member who wanted to change his ID most likely) hiding behind some weird anxiety over who knows what. Try adding some insight or at least debate regarding the subject at hand. At least "Night-Squawk" has focused some of his words back to the point of rust removal. I'm starting to like the guy...
Anyhow, I don't mind scrapping with anyone on this subject, anyone at all. Why? I find it important to let people know that OA is not the best way to remove rust and that it is very toxic and poisonous. If only a handful of people get the point, well then that's the seed of change I'm after. I'm planting the change and I won't give up. I always fight for change for the better. If I take some girly man flack from faceless internet cowards during the process, that's totally fine with me.
treehugger
Is anyone else fed up with this inflammatory trolling?
Now we are all sychophants.
Use spell check next time before throwing insults in attempt go gain a following. .....
Quit posting usless trolls on this thread! Stop, stop, stop posting here. We get it. You want to be a hero and change the way everyone does things. Whatever.
Dude, I don't know what your problem is but you have managed to turn a great thread full of wonderful restorations into a freak show.
You change your story every post. Now it's not vinegar, but Citric Acid that you want as your claim to fame. Nobody cares. All of these options have been discussed years ago here. But if nobody will listen, you just attempt to keep beating the dead horse and ruining a great thread, which we all enjoy.
Now you call everyone "Weak Minded" followers. Way to insult everyone here.
You don't get it.
All you have done is start fights, and try and beat people into submission, and try to use scare tactics, misinformation, and even lies to prove something for your "cause".
And you can't even have the decency to go about it on a thread that you started. Are you afraid nobody will follow your infinite wisdom on your own thread?
Dude, you just won't give it up. All these wonderful "new" techniques of yours have been discussed years ago here, and quite frankly they were discussed at the beginning of this thread! Evaporust has been tried, vinegar has been tried, citric acid as been tried, toilet bowl cleaners, and a whole list of other products, a long time ago. I have ALL of them right here in my cabinets, and I have tried them all! People like this OA technique, and so do I. Get over it. It's not a contest.
The real problem, is your falsehoods, and lies, and your complete lack of responding to facts point for point, and complete turnarounds and diversions to other issues of your choice. Every time we address one of your allegations, you change the subject and bash something else. Now you bash me and my lackey followers. And you also are dropping my name all over the place. Get over it dude.
And stop posting the trolling garbage on this thread! Go start your own thread topic. Get over it. Jeeze..... .
This is a positive thread, started by a positive guy, who likes helping others, with many great contributions taken in along the way. Either it can continue to be that way, or it stops here. This garbage is not constructive. Bring it to your own thread.
Now we are all sychophants.
Use spell check next time before throwing insults in attempt go gain a following. .....
Quit posting usless trolls on this thread! Stop, stop, stop posting here. We get it. You want to be a hero and change the way everyone does things. Whatever.
Dude, I don't know what your problem is but you have managed to turn a great thread full of wonderful restorations into a freak show.
You change your story every post. Now it's not vinegar, but Citric Acid that you want as your claim to fame. Nobody cares. All of these options have been discussed years ago here. But if nobody will listen, you just attempt to keep beating the dead horse and ruining a great thread, which we all enjoy.
Now you call everyone "Weak Minded" followers. Way to insult everyone here.
You don't get it.
All you have done is start fights, and try and beat people into submission, and try to use scare tactics, misinformation, and even lies to prove something for your "cause".
And you can't even have the decency to go about it on a thread that you started. Are you afraid nobody will follow your infinite wisdom on your own thread?
Dude, you just won't give it up. All these wonderful "new" techniques of yours have been discussed years ago here, and quite frankly they were discussed at the beginning of this thread! Evaporust has been tried, vinegar has been tried, citric acid as been tried, toilet bowl cleaners, and a whole list of other products, a long time ago. I have ALL of them right here in my cabinets, and I have tried them all! People like this OA technique, and so do I. Get over it. It's not a contest.
The real problem, is your falsehoods, and lies, and your complete lack of responding to facts point for point, and complete turnarounds and diversions to other issues of your choice. Every time we address one of your allegations, you change the subject and bash something else. Now you bash me and my lackey followers. And you also are dropping my name all over the place. Get over it dude.
And stop posting the trolling garbage on this thread! Go start your own thread topic. Get over it. Jeeze.....
.This is a positive thread, started by a positive guy, who likes helping others, with many great contributions taken in along the way. Either it can continue to be that way, or it stops here. This garbage is not constructive. Bring it to your own thread.
You ought to see the PM's he has been sending me.
Go ahead and post them BMX Products! Are there one or two? Stop whining and insulting... I have no fear, go right ahead... I stand behind everything I write even when it's wasting time on the trolls like you...
Ted, you show me one single post written anywhere on this website from anyone before me on Citric Acid powder vs. OA and I'll stop posting right now. You have my word. Go ahead... You won't be able to because you are BSing again... Stop BSing and desperately trying to defend your mistakes. Suck it up big guy. You made serious errors in your postings that most likely have already harmed others and you're upset and panicky because I pointed them out.
Calling OA the "VERY BEST" way to remove rust just isn't true. It's just nasty toxic and hazardous crap that you had left over from your "Beer Can Cleaning Club". This is 2008 and you are out of touch.
Vinegar and Citric Acid Powder win... They're both safer and better and you just can't admit it.
Here's another one that beats OA: Ever use Aluminum foil to scrub rusted metal parts with a little clear oil? Do you think it could possibly remove rust within minutes and have no toxic fumes etc. like OA? Have you ever tried it?
There are many things you don't know. That's why I'm here!
Ted, you show me one single post written anywhere on this website from anyone before me on Citric Acid powder vs. OA and I'll stop posting right now. You have my word. Go ahead... You won't be able to because you are BSing again... Stop BSing and desperately trying to defend your mistakes. Suck it up big guy. You made serious errors in your postings that most likely have already harmed others and you're upset and panicky because I pointed them out.
Calling OA the "VERY BEST" way to remove rust just isn't true. It's just nasty toxic and hazardous crap that you had left over from your "Beer Can Cleaning Club". This is 2008 and you are out of touch.
Vinegar and Citric Acid Powder win... They're both safer and better and you just can't admit it.
Here's another one that beats OA: Ever use Aluminum foil to scrub rusted metal parts with a little clear oil? Do you think it could possibly remove rust within minutes and have no toxic fumes etc. like OA? Have you ever tried it?
There are many things you don't know. That's why I'm here!
QUOTE
Oxalic acid is a naturally occurring component of plants, and is found in relatively high levels in dark-green leafy foods (relatively high, though, is just that).
ie.. spinach, rhubbarb and in all of these foods..
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html
All acids, including citric and acetic are toxic to humans in high enough does. Aspirin (Salicylic acid) will also do a number on you if you take enough.
Acetic acid
http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32883
oxalic acid
http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35203
Salicylic acid
http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34312
There you go..treehugger.
And with today's contributions, it's time to put this thead on pause for a while.
Enjoy this muted musical interlude while the tape rewinds.
M
Enjoy this muted musical interlude while the tape rewinds.
M
I know I'm new here, so I'll probably regret saying this, but maybe our fighters could take a 10 post recess. All this reading is hurting my eyes. How about some more pictures of peoples results, using whatever method they choose. I like pictures 
***No offense intended toward anyone. You all have a lot of useful information and I am now very excited to begin my first resto.
David
***No offense intended toward anyone. You all have a lot of useful information and I am now very excited to begin my first resto.
David
This thread has been locked since late last year. I PM'd Mike and asked that it could be re-opened due to the fact that it is very useful still.
I hope those that feel the need to disagree take it to PM's and leave it out of this thread.
I hope those that feel the need to disagree take it to PM's and leave it out of this thread.
UUUhhh.....
BEFORE
AFTER 6 hours
BEFORE
AFTER 6 hours
The next morning-
Sensational save! great job.
Ted's OA and polishing threads certainly completely changed the way a lot of us looked at those old rusty parts!
Ted's OA and polishing threads certainly completely changed the way a lot of us looked at those old rusty parts!
before 
:
after :
:after
:
Has anyone (Ted?) figured out how to get rid of yellow oxalic acid "pollen" once it embeds itself into pitted chrome?
I've been pretty vigilant with my last OA bath, cleaning the rust and pollen from the parts every 90 minutes or so, yet some of my parts are still picking up the yellow pollen from the bath water.
Is it just a matter of completely changing the bath every few hours? I'd prefer to avoid that, because for this particular project (a heavily rusted old Schwinn) I'd end up going through about $50 worth of OA...
Any tips on this?
Thanks!
I've been pretty vigilant with my last OA bath, cleaning the rust and pollen from the parts every 90 minutes or so, yet some of my parts are still picking up the yellow pollen from the bath water.
Is it just a matter of completely changing the bath every few hours? I'd prefer to avoid that, because for this particular project (a heavily rusted old Schwinn) I'd end up going through about $50 worth of OA...
Any tips on this?
Thanks!
QUOTE (Dave Muggleston @ Apr 8 2009, 11:45 PM)
Is it just a matter of completely changing the bath every few hours? I'd prefer to avoid that, because for this particular project (a heavily rusted old Schwinn) I'd end up going through about $50 worth of OA...
Tip? Only financial. Two years ago I bought a 7 lb tub for about $40 from chemistrystore dot com. I only use a couple of tablespoons of OA each time. Had some rough stuff come out great. I've dipped four frames, about the same number of forks, multiple wheels and a good number of small pieces and I estimate I have 5-6 lbs left.
hi new to forum
i have 24" cruiser frame that im trying to find info on (another topic), i think this is a hand built prototype , its been hand brazed , was wondering if OA bath would effect the brazing in anyway, its pretty rusty so would need a long soak or possible strong solution? any help much apreciated and by the way these restoration threads are the most usefull threads ive seen, great
i have 24" cruiser frame that im trying to find info on (another topic), i think this is a hand built prototype , its been hand brazed , was wondering if OA bath would effect the brazing in anyway, its pretty rusty so would need a long soak or possible strong solution? any help much apreciated and by the way these restoration threads are the most usefull threads ive seen, great
It shouldn't hurt even raw brazing at all.
Many of us do Stings all the time. They are brazed.
Although, it may (may) oxidize it and darken raw brass/brazing, just as time does to brass. It's not potent enough to eat away at it though.
The acid dip they use at a chrome plating shop, which they use for stripping chrome, is another story though.
Dip away. Post up some B & A pix!
Many of us do Stings all the time. They are brazed.
Although, it may (may) oxidize it and darken raw brass/brazing, just as time does to brass. It's not potent enough to eat away at it though.
The acid dip they use at a chrome plating shop, which they use for stripping chrome, is another story though.
Dip away. Post up some B & A pix!
QUOTE (Ted Carl @ Apr 28 2009, 05:14 PM)
It shouldn't hurt even raw brazing at all.
Many of us do Stings all the time. They are brazed.
Although, it may (may) oxidize it and darken raw brass/brazing, just as time does to brass. It's not potent enough to eat away at it though.
The acid dip they use at a chrome plating shop, which they use for stripping chrome, is another story though.
Dip away. Post up some B & A pix!
Many of us do Stings all the time. They are brazed.
Although, it may (may) oxidize it and darken raw brass/brazing, just as time does to brass. It's not potent enough to eat away at it though.
The acid dip they use at a chrome plating shop, which they use for stripping chrome, is another story though.
Dip away. Post up some B & A pix!
thanks for the responce i was thinking along the same line with the brazing tought id better check with you first, as i said new to forum, is there a section where i can post pictures to try to id the frame? not sure which section to use , ill post some b & a here to , thanks again
Have been looking for a suitable tub for larger jobs for some time - last week ordered this industrial one. I was looking for a tub I could lay complete frames flat in, to avoid those "high tide"marks you can get from partial dips. Also wanted a tub that would do from 20" - 26" frames. It's much deeper than I need, but I'm very happy with it's capacity. Must way at least 50lbs too! Few projects still yet to do, so it'll get plenty of use!
Here's some of my OA success! 
There are alot of different methods.
QUOTE (harossa @ May 9 2009, 10:54 PM)
There are alot of different methods.
While there are many methods, that one is a lot more work. The OA (or CAP) bathes require much less effort. Most people will have enough rubbing to do when the rust is gone so every bit of polishing you can save yourself helps.
"That's not a tub. *That's* a tub!"
Really pleased with how the Kos fits so easily in my new OA tub! Looks like a pit!
Really pleased with how the Kos fits so easily in my new OA tub! Looks like a pit!
Wow! That's a KOS? Crazy!
Where did you order that beast (the tub)?
Where did you order that beast (the tub)?
Local supplier of hygiene & hospitality equipment. It's aimed at industry - has the holes marked on the bottom if you want to drill and add heavy duty castors. Wasn't cheap - translates to about $200 USD, but it's great heavy duty quality, and will last forever. Also useful as a massive party beer cooler, or for jelly wrestling!
This photo was taken during one of my recent projects and just thought it looked cool. The magic of OA.
Cool pic Timmo.
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