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guest_070901
MW, please pin this to the top of the forum. I don't think you'll find anyone on this site that disagrees this is the number 1 restoration thread of all time. I'm serious, man. smile.gif


Recently helped a friend start restoring a 60s 2 seater Schwinn. The bike looked like an absolute solid rust disaster ready for the scrap heap. After some broken bolts to get the bike stripped and a good bath, some of those same parts are very pretty, it's gonna make an easy re-assembly.
Kurt.
Gotta agree - if any thread deserves to be pinned it's this. And Ted's polishing thread....
n2o
Okay, I recently found a chrome 1982 Redline Proline II that had light surface rust. I wanted to try giving it the acid bath but was very hesitant because it still had the original stickers, although faded. I decided to give it a go anyway and it turned out pretty nice with ZERO damage to the stickers. I didn't take any before/after pics because the rust wasn't bad, but I do still have the tub of acid in the garage and I'm gonna try some parts in worse shape. BTW, I found a gallon sized jug at Home Depot in the plumbing section. Can't remember the brand name right now.

Thanks Ted Carl!

Next, I'll tackle some polishing.
Ted Carl
...Bump for the PM questions.....

MikeCarruth
Nice recco. Consider it pinned.

Please PM me the link for the polishing thread and I will pin that as requested.

Best,

M

QUOTE (BridgeCity @ Apr 8 2008, 05:22 PM) *
MW, please pin this to the top of the forum. I don't think you'll find anyone on this site that disagrees this is the number 1 restoration thread of all time. I'm serious, man. smile.gif

DitchWeed
Found these beauties in a bird poop covered barn on a dairy farm of all places!!!! According to the guy I got em from ( For a dollar, no less!) He said they were bought new when a local shop closed years ago and have never been mounted.

Heres the before:


And the after:
monocoquemike
Ted,

I've read the post from beginning to end and I don't believe that I've seen this question, so here it goes...

I have a powdercoated frame that has very lil' rust on it, but I want to clean it up...It has a few very, very small knicks in the powder from rocks or whatever else could have done it from normal riding. Those small knicks in the powder have some light rust on them as well as where the wheels were mounted in the dropouts. Here's my question....

After the OA bath, do I need to treat those small spots with the Met-Al polish or a similar product to protect the bare metal that will be exposed? I am planning on doing a polish job on the frame afterwords and I'm hoping that it will turn out like your bike from the original post...(those pics were amazing by the way!)

I was wondering if the that I use on the frame will be enough to protect those small knicks in the powder or if I need to take it that extra step...Obviously, I don't want the metal to be polished to a show shine, I just want to make sure that it's protected and won't rust again...I hope you all understand this question....haha...

Thanks in advance Ted...
Mike
RUSSD
I am going to do this on my Mongoose two/four. It has a lot of rust on it. I'll post before and afters of it when I am done. I found a gallon jug of stuff called Deck Wash at Lowes. It is OA, says so in the ingredients biggrin.gif ) . Now I just got to convince my wife that it wont hurt the tub HA HA HA HA, that is truly going to be the hardest part of this smile.gif .
Ted Carl
Regarding the paint question. Touch up paint is the best way to protect it afterwards. I know some like to keep them as "Survivors", however, bare metal is bare metal, the steel exposed in a chip is going to be tough to keep from re-rusting, unless it is painted over and sealed as such.
RUSSD
Well here it is. The Goose was dipped for about 18-20 hours in the OA bath. I have to say, this is one product that lived up to the hype biggrin.gif . The frame is not perfect now, but it looks a lot better. There where a few spots that the rust got all the way to the Chr-Mo so it is permanently damaged (unless I want to do a re-chrome) . But I think it is wayyyyyy better.




had to soak the frame in 2 stages...




not perfect but a HUGE improvement....
masterstint
heres a Cook Bros i was lucky enough to come into recently that i posted in another thread,,,it didnt have really bad rust but i figured why not bring her back to life and back to her glory days!(and why not just one more for the stable,lol) The frame actually came from a local bike shop about 3 miles from my house, cant wait to show the current owner the bike shop stickers that i left on it,,,,,oh yeah, one other thing, Ted, YOU WIN,,,whatever there is to win you win it! LOL, send me your shipping address i have something you will enjoy, thanks for this thread!, Claude
BEFORE:





TRUSTY ASSITANT:


AFTER:




djrocker1007
QUOTE (Pauly @ Jun 13 2006, 08:56 AM) *
I haven't used anything on the inside yet. I was thinking about giving them a good douse of WD-40... not sure how long that protection would last though.



PB Blaster is Awesome! Much better than WD
agentheinz
Started dipping parts from that old tandem...can you tell which end of the fender went in?



Front bars lost a lot of chrome, from heavy rusting, but the back bars/seatpost turned out a little better. Gotta consider, this stuff was RUSTY!
Ted Carl
Awesome!

That fender really tells the story doesn't it? laugh.gif

Keep up the good work boys!

cool.gif T
Bob Poffinbarger
I see that alot of items have been dipped with decals on. I've got some chrome reverse wheels for my '57 chevy p/u on tiers that need dipped. has anyone dipped rubber in this stuff? grant it, the tires aren't anything special but didn't know if it would hurt it.
MiyataMia
I'm cleaning up my old Miyata and have researched rust removal quite a bit.

If you do any cooking, here's the 33 cent solution: get that roll of aluminum foil out of the drawer, tear off a foot or so and crumple it up to make a scouring wad, open a can of classic coca cola, dribble coke on the rusty part or in crinkles of wadded foil. Scrub along the long axis until it shines. Rinse, repeat*. If that does not work. You may have to spend a bit more than 33 cents. When de rusted, I'll polish with"wenol" metal polish and wax it up.

Couple of shoots after 33 years of foolish neglect and first scrub with foil only. It got dark after today's foil and coke rub. I'll send later pix.Click to view attachment

(i have a package of brass wool from Home depot, very fine weave, to use but not done yet)


* that's where the profits are for the Cola boys.
shadrach
Wow, I just spent the last hour reading this entire thread. Exceleent info!
I just 'unearthed' my 85 FST from my parent's basement tonight, which I thought was lost a decade ago. Although the frame is not rusted as bad as some of the examples here, I'm going to go track down this stuff tomorrow and start dipping! And to think I was just going to try some Mother's polish and a rag, ROFL!
Kurt.
Aaaah. Miyata Mia, did you actually read this thread before you jumped in. Do yourself a favour mate - have a read...
PreDone
I have an '82 Laguna with extensive rust under very chipped white paint, but it looks to be salvageable...should I strip the paint before dipping in OA or just put it in paint and all? I'd like to eventually powder coat.
Ted Carl
Paint strippers are usually very acidic.

The strippers are also moist and gooey, and you use them outside, and then you end up washing it off with the hose, etc....

What happens when you strip paint to bare metal, is you usually wind up with flash rust all over the place on your "freshly exposed bare metal" part. The stripper isn't going to remove any rust, but it will likely add to it.

So I'd say if you are absolutely sure that it is going to be re-painted/re-powdered/re-whatevered, then strip it first, then get all the rust in one felled swoop with the dip afterwards.

But if you think there is a chance at saving the paint, I'd say dip it first, and try to save it. If that plan falls flat on it's face and you find out it is just too rough to save the paint, then you can always strip it, and give it another quick dip after.
PreDone
Thanks Ted, that's exactly the answer I was looking for...strip the paint, rinse it off, immediately dip in OA to remove as much rust as possible, then coat with LPS-3 until I take it in for a fresh powdercoat. Any thoughts on different types of paint strippers? How do you like the citrus stuff?

The paint is in pretty bad shape (chipping, peeling, bare in some places) so I think a fresh powdercoat might really bring this back to life...then again, I'd hate to get all the paint and rust removed, then punch holes in it with the sand blasting, thus ruining the frame altogether...any thoughts on this?

I know this thread on OA's is primarily targeted to removing rust from chrome, however after reading all 21 pages over the last 2 days I didn't find much clarity for this type of situation, even though I'm sure many folks are in the same boat.
Brisben
QUOTE (Ted Carl @ Aug 13 2008, 04:40 PM) *
Paint strippers are usually very acidic.

The strippers are also moist and gooey, and you use them outside, and then you end up washing it off with the hose, etc....

What happens when you strip paint to bare metal, is you usually wind up with flash rust all over the place on your "freshly exposed bare metal" part. The stripper isn't going to remove any rust, but it will likely add to it.

So I'd say if you are absolutely sure that it is going to be re-painted/re-powdered/re-whatevered, then strip it first, then get all the rust in one felled swoop with the dip afterwards.

But if you think there is a chance at saving the paint, I'd say dip it first, and try to save it. If that plan falls flat on it's face and you find out it is just too rough to save the paint, then you can always strip it, and give it another quick dip after.



Ted

Would you ever consider electrolytic removal for a case like this ?

I have used it on some vintage hand tools and it works wonders and will also strip paint as well as rust at the same time - but you HAVE to coat it immediately with a rust preventative once it is rinsed off - I use camelia oil until I decide what I need to do next


dUrTwErXdEsIgNs
QUOTE (Pauly @ Apr 12 2006, 11:25 PM) *
Stopped by a hardware store on the way home from work.... got a couple parts soaking. pics tomorrow!
$7.30 for 1 lb. of powder... not bad.


What is the brand name of this powder stuff?
And what is it sold as? A rust remover?
dUrTwErXdEsIgNs
10lbs for $41.00 shipped on ebay .
ShaggySheld
Hi,

Can anyone tell me where to get the UK equivalent for Met-All please?

Closest I have found is this, but it's well pricey compared to Met-All:

QUOTE
http://www.johnswax.co.uk/acatalog/Washing_and_Cleaning.html
Metall Britework Polish *NEW*
Chromed or plated surfaces need to be treated gently, so Zymol Metall Polish was developed specifically for automotive brightwork. Common brightwork metals include stainless steel, aluminium, nickel and others, all of which are susceptible to damage by salt corrosion, engine oils, acids and other environmental exposure. Zymol Metall Polish has a special blend of oils that gently remove the tarnish and discolouration caused by exposure to the elements.
Each container is supplied complete with 4 disposable towelettes fully saturated in Zymol Metall Polish, gloves and a buffing cloth.

Price: £26.00


Would BRASSO be the equivalent?????

Cheers
ShaggySheld
Actually, I think I've found the equivalent..

It's AutoSol.

For all you UK peeps
COASTY
Autosol is a lot more abrasive than Brasso. Be careful with it.
PUSH2VERTICAL
I have dipped every part since the start of this thread (thankyou for this idea!) but something happend to my daughters mini viper.

8 hour dip and the fork had "staining" the chrome was perfect with rust spatters and rust around the weld marks etc.

Now the chrome on one side of the fork looks cloudy/hazy and will not polish up. Did I do something wrong? anybody else have this problem? no pic to post, I'm at work now.

If you go back a few pages, Masters Cook Bros frame is very typical of my results - but the viper came out looking more like RussDs' goose (2nd pic) BUT I didn't have the rust damage to start with and the chrome is still smooth perfect without damage but it's cloudy?
RobinsonAmtrac
will this method work for spokes & rims too? They are oxidized pretty bad, they are a light goldish color. It comes off pretty easy with some regular chrome polish, but 96 spokes is going to take alot of time and labor to polish up. The rims polished up real easy along with the outsides of the flanges. It'd be a pita to polish the insides of the flanges and the main part of the hubs.
hillzofvalp
I have been referred to this forum from bikeforums.net. I have read everything in this thread (but do I remember it all?).

I have a chromoly road frame with very little rust on the outside but a lot more on the inside. I plan on treating it with framesaver when I'm finished with the OA bath.

So here's my question:

There are holes in the frame where the tubes are welded together (you can only see the hole on the inside of the frame). So using OA, will I absolutely have to brush all of the yellow product off from the inside in places I cannot see? what happens if you leave yellow and then use framesaver?

How much do I need to rinse the inside to get rid of acid? Should I neutralize it with baking soda?

I think I have the ability of brushing off what I cannot see with a brass instrument cleaning brush (long peace of flexible metal or plastic with a little brush on the end).



Input is greatly appreciated.. the results people are getting are just great. biggrin.gif I just don't want to make my frame worse.
Ted Carl
You can really only get what you can from the insides.

It will generally turn yellow, and a lot of it will wash right out. But there is still going to be some that gets left behind inside there. Especially since circulation is weak inside there during the bath.

I tend to believe that once you coat it down with rust preventative after it is loosened and turned into the yellow powder, and most of it is washed out, the rust preventative should keep it from being able to re-bond, and is far better than just letting it go as it was.

On the other hand, rust never sleeps (someone said that once, lol) . So nobody is ever going to totally stop corrosion on the insides of a frame, unless it is stopped at the production of the bicycle during manufacturing. Even if you painted the insides of the tubing right out of the mill, as soon as it got welded, corrosion would have already started in there. Rustproofing a brand new frame would still not keep it pristine inside there. The day it's manufactured, rust has started in there.

Get as much as you possibly can out of there. Rust proof it as soon as it comes out of the bath. Then quit getting it wet and dirty inside there (even low humidity helps a lot) (feeding the rust). And that is about all you can really do, and that will make it last many, many years longer than it would have otherwise.

Even if you have something re-plated, the (much stronger) acid they use in the stripping and in the chroming process, will have lots of rust forming on the insides before you even get it home.

Don't worry about neutralizing it. Rinsing it good, and coating it, will stop any leftover reaction right away.

Other than cutting a hundred old frames in half, and bisecting all the tubing, and experimenting with it for years and years, and subjecting it to every different rust proofing, and testing all the results, we will truly never know exactly how long the rust proofing lasts, how long it slows it down for, etc.... It's pretty safe to say that getting as much as possible, and coating it right up, is better than leaving it packed solid with rust, and leaving it to it's own devices to run free though.

Cheers. sun_bespectacled.gif
masterstint
ok i just bought 5lbs of oxalic acid on ebay for about $29...should last a minute...he has 397-- 5lb containers left,LOL,,,claude

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230190382898
hillzofvalp
Thanks for the info, sir, but should I dry it before I coat it with framesaver? Or just right away inject the frame with gobs of the stuff and shake it around until satisfied even though I left moisture in there? I suppose you just dry it as much as you can. Someone on bikeforums suggested blasting it with pressurized nitrogen.

smile.gif
Ted Carl
Personally, I just dry it with pressurized air pretty good, and then spray it in, and I leave the frame hanging on a bike stand. Every so often I rotate it. Sometimes refilling it, and sometimes letting it drain out, but coating all sides of the tubing.

Eventually I stuff paper towels into the head tube, seat tube and BB, and some on the floor below, and let the extras drain.

Oil will almost always displace any water (rustproofing is usually some combination of parafin wax, oils, and other petroleum stuff) , so even if it's still soaking wet, it will coat the tubing and the water will run off and out.
Wayne R.
A question for you guys:

I saw a TV programme once where a guy was stripping paint from a table leg. He soaked cotton wool or wadding in paint stripper and laid it on the wood, then wrapped it in clingfilm. He left it overnight, and next morning years of paint came off in one nasty-looking flaky 'skin'.
Not all of us have the space or the large plastic vats for dipping a frame into. Anyone think the wadding/film idea's possible for oxalic acid cleaning?
hillzofvalp
should I use a degreaser like pedro's to get rid of all oil and grime from the inside of the frame before I soak in OA?
mongoosedrummer
This OxalicAcid hype has got to end, seriously... For the sake of the environment and your bank account!!!

Many professional metal finishers know very well, pure vinegar works just as well as Oxalic Acid (or even better) to remove rust from Chromed and Nickel plated metals/parts.

It costs pennies compared to OA and can be used several times even after it's dirty...

Why all this harsh chemical stuff? Flushing that garbage into our toilets = flushing into our eventual drinking water supply...
Dumping into sewers/drains = Dumping into streams and rivers

That sucks, really bad.

Just soak your parts in plain old white vinegar for at least 48 hours... Scrub, rinse and wipe with clear oil to protect... No WD-40 either! It eventually eats away at metals... Use frickin' Canola or Corn oil! Easy peasy.

Acid is for old stoners!!! Stay away!

VINEGAR!!! VINEGAR!!! VINEGAR!!!


mongoosedrummer
QUOTE (Ted Carl @ Apr 1 2006, 07:45 PM) *
Pull the plug in the laundry room sink! It cleans the pipes on it's way out! lol

It is just an Oxidizer. Spray it on your deck, rinse it off. It is not a hazardous material to the best of my knowledge. The container says nothing about it being environmentally unsafe.

Dont drink it, dont wash your eyes out with it, etc...


That's just not right, plus it's harsh on the environment:

Emergency Overview for Oxilic Acid:

Danger! May be fatal if swallowed. Corrosive. Causes severe irritation and
burns to the skin, eyes and respiratory tract. Harmful if inhaled or absorbed
with skin. May cause kidney damage.

Routes of Entry: Inhalation, Ingestion, Eye Contact and Skin Contact

Target Organs: Eyes, Skin, Respiratory System and Kidneys

Skin Contact: Skin contact may cause irritation with symptoms of redness, swelling, itching
and pain.

Eye Contact: Eye contact may cause irritation with symptoms of redness, swelling, itching
and pain. May cause Corneal injury.

Inhalation: Inhalation of Oxalic Acid produces irritation of respiratory tract, cough and
vomiting.

Ingestion: Oxalic Acid is toxic. As little as 5 gms may be fatal. Ingestion may cause
Gastroenteritis, burns, nausea, vomiting, shock and convulsions. Oxalic Acid
removes Calcium from the blood as Calcium Oxalate. Calcium Oxalate thus
formed might precipitate in the kidney tubules.

Chronic Exposure: Inhalation of Oxalic Acid over a long period of time may cause inflammation
of respiratory tract and might result in weight loss. It may also result in
Urolithiasis (the formation of urinary stones).

Hazards Identification
--------------------------
POISON! DANGER! MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE IRRITATION AND BURNS TO SKIN, EYES, AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. MAY CAUSE KIDNEY DAMAGE.

SAF-T-DATA™ Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 4 - Extreme (Poison)
Flammability Rating: 1 - Slight
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 3 - Severe (Corrosive)
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: White (Corrosive)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oxalic acid is corrosive to tissue. When ingested, oxalic acid removes calcium from the blood. Kidney damage can be expected as the calcium is removed from the blood in the form of calcium oxalate. The calcium oxalate then obstructs the kidney tubules.

Inhalation:
Harmful if inhaled. Can cause severe irritation and burns of nose, throat, and respiratory tract.
Ingestion:
Toxic! May cause burns, nausea, severe gastroenteritis and vomiting, shock and convulsions. May cause renal damage, as evidenced by bloody urine. Estimate fatal dose is 5 to 15 grams.
Skin Contact:
Can cause severe irritation, possible skin burns. May be absorbed through the skin.
Eye Contact:
Oxalic acid is an eye irritant. It may produce corrosive effects.
Chronic Exposure:
May cause inflammation of the upper respiratory tract. Prolonged skin contact can cause dermatitis, cyanosis of the fingers and possible ulceration. May affect kidneys.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired kidney or respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.


mongoosedrummer
Again, vinegar works just as well or better. This Oxlic Acid B.S. has got to end. The bicycle in it's essence is an awesome, healthy, non-polluting machine... Cleaning/restoring them shouldn't be so toxic... negative.gif

I hate to think the "inside word" around here for restoring our beloved bikes has led to mass quantities of Oxlic Acid being flushed down drains, toilets, sewers etc. all over America and elsewhere... It's dumb, dangerous and a waste of money.

Sorry, but that's my 2 Abes. wink.gif

Ted Carl
Well sir, you are welcome to go and buy a 55 gallon drum of vinegar, but the proof is in the pudding, and it will cost a whole lot more than a few ounces of OA.

You can trash the OA, and play the expert on the environmental effects of it.. Buuuut, ....The fact is, it is a naturally occurring element and it is in the food we eat. Just like Acetic Acid is in foods everywhere. (Acetic Acid is vinegar). So if I understand your aggressive, angry, and flaming posts here correctly.... Oxalic Acid should be banned, but Acetic Acid is harmless? Methinks you should look up the MSDS on Acetic Acid!??? WOW, Vinegar is some NASTY STUFF according to the MSDS which rates the PURE Acetic Acid, as well as the PURE Oxalic Acid! rolleyes.gif

Water is a deadly toxin if you drink too much of it. In fact, look up Baby Powder, Chlorine, Flouride, Baking Soda, etc on the MSDS sheets. Funny, Baby Powder can cause pulmonary fibrosis (scarring of the lungs) yet we sprinkle it on our babies! hmmm. You have to understand how the MSDS's actually work, how they are created, and what it is you are reading and why.

Wow, you come in here after thousands of bikes have been reclaimed and restored that in the past have been discarded and left for dead, and you slam it and call it dumb and dangerous. sarcastic_blum.gif


Oxalic acid and oxalates are abundantly present in many plants, most notably fat hen (lamb's quarters), sorrel, and Oxalis species. The root and/or leaves of rhubarb and buckwheat are listed being high in oxalic acid.[8]

Other edible plants that contain significant concentrations of oxalic acid include—in decreasing order—star fruit (carambola), black pepper, parsley, poppy seed, amaranth, spinach, chard, beets, cocoa, chocolate, most nuts, most berries, and beans.

The gritty “mouth feel” one experiences when drinking milk with a rhubarb dessert is caused by precipitation of calcium oxalate. Thus even dilute amounts of oxalic acid can readily "crack" the casein found in various dairy products.

Leaves of the tea plant (Camellia sinensis) contain among the greatest measured concentrations of oxalic acid relative to other plants. However the infusion beverage typically
contains only low to moderate amounts of oxalic acid per serving, due to the small mass of leaves used for brewing.

Dude, it's deck cleaner. You are supposed to spray it on your deck and let it sit. It reacts and gets used up. Just like chlorine, which they put into our drinking water. When an orange tree drops rotten oranges into the ground it puts Citric Acid into the soil. When you dump vinegar down the drain you are dumping Acetic Acid in the drain. Look up the MSDS on Citric Acid, and Acetic Acid, and see how dangerous they are!

The reason Oxalic acid is such a health hazard (in pure form, or strong mixtures) is because it binds with calcium. So if you drink a glass of milk, and drink Oxalic Acid, it will bind with the calcium and make kidney stones.

Oxalic acid can also be produced by the metabolism of ascorbic acid (vitamin C). (So what this is saying is that you can eat an orange, and when your body metabolizes it, it will create Oxalic Acid IN your body!)

If you eat Rhubarb pie, and drink milk with your pie, it will taste grainy in your mouth. Because the Oxalic Acid in the Rhubarb will combine with the calcium in your milk while it's in your mouth...Again, kidney stones are the risk!

Instead of coming in from behind and sideswiping us with facts that were already presented in the beginning of the thread, (such as the MSDS). You should research the facts in greater detail instead of succumbing to the "Green Planet" hype before gathering the facts. OA is green and naturally occurring item in nature.

I have an idea, how about you go positive, instead of negative, start a fresh thread of your own, and show us how to dip a frame in vinegar for less than the "Expensive" OA bath. sarcastic.gif Did you even read the whole thread regarding how it only takes a few ounces of OA to clean an entire bicycle's worth of parts? You probably pour 100 times more bleach, (which is chlorine, and does much the same thing as OA) into your laundry every year, than anyone uses OA for bicycles! lol.

Or are you just angry that this thread may have changed the way the entire bicycle collectors world is restoring bikes, (Because it works so well), and Al Gore told you the earth is being destroyed by it? Honestly, you make it sound like we are dumping drain oil from our cars down the drain! lol. De-greasing and re-greasing your bicycle parts, and throwing the petroleum soaked rags in the washing machine, or into the garbage is the real crime! ohmy.gif lol.

If vinegar works so well, then start a how to thread. Maybe it will change the way the world restores rusty bikes. Then again, maybe this thread has already done that, and there is no turning back? lol.

So go heat up some water, and dip some tea leaves in it, and make yourself a cup of tea, and feel warm and fuzzy, because you are about to ingest a substantial amount of Oxalic Acid in your fresh beverage.

Posing the questions of risk, and hazards is not a bad thing. But flaming away, before you understand what you are flaming is unwise.

Cheers all.

And FWIW, I don't think anyone wants a thread this good, with this many positive results in the communities everywhere, to be degraded to flaming and wild accusations of destroying the earth, and references to our own stupidity, without basis. I'm pretty sure everyone would rather see it get locked and remain archived, as opposed to the former. If it goes south, I will simply have Mike lock it up. And most would agree with that decision as well. (But not unless it does, to be clear)
Kurt.
Don't sweat it Ted - a lot of this guys posts seem to be hating on something for no good reason. Troll negative.gif
Ted Carl
..... I just thought I would add some interesting empirical data which I/we have learned since the start of the thread here as well.

From a USA government web site: Disposal: Small amounts of oxalic acid can be flushed down a sink with a large quantity of water, unless local rules prohibit this. Large amounts should be neutralized before disposal.



Also....

Oxalic Acid is not a listed RCRA hazardous waste
.

Also, since OA is used in upholstery cleaners and carpet cleaners, one website suggests that if you have a "Large" amount of it to dispose of, to mix it with baking soda in water, (neutralizing it) then letting it dry out. Crushing it back into dust, and sprinkling it onto your carpet and vacuuming it up! Supposedly, it makes really fresh clean carpet... lol. (I'm probably not going down that road myself, lol)

Water 101. (Layman's terms). Water is rich in calcium. The harder the water, the more Calcium there is in it. (Calcium hardness, Carbonate hardness, re-dox potential, etc...)


Calcium is naturally present in water. It may dissolve from rocks such as limestone, marble, calcite, dolomite, gypsum, fluorite and apatite. Calcium is a determinant of water hardness, because it can be found in water as Ca2+ ions. Magnesium is the other hardness determinant.


When Oxalic Acid combines with Calcium, which is abundant in hard water (everywhere), it forms Calcium Oxalate. ( A fact already established from scientific data published all over the place.)

Calcium oxalate forms a major component of beer-stone, a brownish precipitate that tends to accumulate within vats, barrels and other containers used in the brewing of beer. Beerstone is composed of calcium and magnesium salts and various organic compounds left over from the brewing process.

This "brownish precipitate" they speak of is essentially the brownish stuff in the bottom of our OA pans! Beerstone! (I've been sitting on this one for a while to learn more about it, but now is a good time to let the cat out of the bag, lol) It has a name! lol.

So when OA reacts with, and removes the calcium from the water, it essentially softens the water, and lowers the pH. (An acid has a low pH).

In contrast, A University of Minnesota study showed that the Twin Cities metropolitan region now uses an astounding 260 pounds of road salt per person every winter. This goes directly into the water. This also increases the hardness of the water. ...Therefore, (a messed up VBMX sick analogy, that is actually pretty much correct, lol) if 693 vintage bicycle restorers use 6 ounces of Oxalic Acid, and they all dump it down the drain, we can effectively neutralize the environmental effects of "One person's" quota of road salt (In the Twin Cities are only), by binding up the calcium increase that was induced by 260 pounds of road salt, by turning that extra calcium into "Beerstone" ....A byproduct of making beer, and the yellowish brownish stuff that settles out in our OA containers.

...In short, it reacts with calcium in the water, in the rocks, in everything that has calcium in it which it comes into contact with, and turns it into calcium oxalate, which is a bad thing to have in your kidney tubules, but OK to have in our beer vats, .....and then a clam uses it to make a nice hard shell for himself.... .


Global scale, global effects. ... Everyone in the country dumps 120 pounds of salt in their water softener to create an ion exchange and remove the calcium carbonates and soften the water without concern for altering the pH of the water system. ...Hey that's cool with me! We dump dump-truck after dump truck load of salt on the roads and don't bat an eye at the chlorides added to the water system. A guy dumps 4 ounces of dilute Oxalic Acid in the drain which creates an ion exchange and removes the calcium from the water and lowers the pH of it and creates a few ounces of beerstone.....OMG!!!!

It started with beer can collecting, and is ending in beerstones. Does everyone see the common denominator here? Yes, beer is good. sun_bespectacled.gif So is OA. .... sun_bespectacled.gif

Any more than that, one is free to hire a Nobel prize winning chemist and invoke a congressional committee.... sarcastic_blum.gif



mongoosedrummer
QUOTE (Kurt. @ Sep 23 2008, 10:43 AM) *
Don't sweat it Ted - a lot of this guys posts seem to be hating on something for no good reason. Troll negative.gif


Kurt, don't insult me. I've read all your posts... You can go back to bashing American politicians from "down under" and posting stuff about people's heads being stuck up an elephant's butt... All your topics and contributions speak for themselves... Just don't insult me son. I have something to say here about restoration. You obviously have nothing to say about anything, your posts and insult to me here added nothing.

Ted, I am restoring someone's bike right now who is disabled and I have a legitimate concern about the stripping and cleaning of the frame using non-toxic chemicals as much as possible due in no small part because that person asked me to use non-toxic products as much as possible. That's all.

I honestly believe Vinegar works as well as Oxilic Acid and is far less toxic. Plain and simple. I wouldn't need 55 gallons of it either as you suggest... Only the minimal amount required to cover the object I'm de-rusting... You had suggested to someone in the past on this thread to simply pour the used OA mixture once used, down the laundry drain. You said it helps clean the pipes... I believe that is wrong.

Both Vinegar and OA are derived from "natural acids" true, yet OA is way may toxic as you know, because to use it as you suggest, requires the concentrate, not a little residual amount found at the bottom of a tea cup...

I am sorry if you feel I flamed you, became aggressive or angry on this post. Read it again, I did not. I think you are wrong in that regard. I know you are quite proud of the popularity of this thread by way of your reaction (perhaps over-reaction is a better way of putting it) but I still say Vinegar works just as well OA and is far less toxic "in the same required volume" and concentrate needed to remove rust from metal. It's cheaper too (in the same volume required to perform the same effect).

No big deal, just a tip for those who may want to try an alternative.

Hopefully the following health hazards regarding OA will not be removed from this post as they are true and required by law to be attached and understood prior to use of any OA product:

Emergency Overview for Oxilic Acid:
--------------------------
POISON! DANGER! MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE IRRITATION AND BURNS TO SKIN, EYES, AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. MAY CAUSE KIDNEY DAMAGE.

SAF-T-DATA™ Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 4 - Extreme (Poison)
Flammability Rating: 1 - Slight
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 3 - Severe (Corrosive)
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: White (Corrosive)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oxalic acid is corrosive to tissue. When ingested, oxalic acid removes calcium from the blood. Kidney damage can be expected as the calcium is removed from the blood in the form of calcium oxalate. The calcium oxalate then obstructs the kidney tubules.

Inhalation:
Harmful if inhaled. Can cause severe irritation and burns of nose, throat, and respiratory tract.
Ingestion:
Toxic! May cause burns, nausea, severe gastroenteritis and vomiting, shock and convulsions. May cause renal damage, as evidenced by bloody urine. Estimate fatal dose is 5 to 15 grams.
Skin Contact:
Can cause severe irritation, possible skin burns. May be absorbed through the skin.
Eye Contact:
Oxalic acid is an eye irritant. It may produce corrosive effects.
Chronic Exposure:
May cause inflammation of the upper respiratory tract. Prolonged skin contact can cause dermatitis, cyanosis of the fingers and possible ulceration. May affect kidneys.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired kidney or respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.









deme
Hey guys I'm new here.
I work in the chemical/plating industry.
I've used OX acid at work and home and it works very well but there are alternatives that are safer although they may be harder to come by.

Sulfamic Acid is a rust inhibitor by nature and a WEAK acid.
Sulfamic acid is used as an acidic cleaning agent, typically for metals and ceramics. It is a replacement for hydrochloric acid for the removal of rust. In households, it is often found as a descaling agent in detergents used for removal of limescale.

here is the msds
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/S7586.htm

and the msds for Oxalic
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm


It produces none of the Yellow sludge like material that you get with OA. OA also tends to release gas Carbon dioxide as well as carbon monoxide.

I've been using a Sulfamic bath for 4 months now (without changing) with no problems. The tank does not have that yellow hue you get with OA. The rust seems to just collect at the bottom of the tank with the Sulfamic.

As far as disposal Sulfamic is NON RCRA as well.
And can be nuetralized with a weak base (baking soda) to a neutral pH (5-10) then poured down a drain. No need to let dry out. Much easier to dispose of than OA.

I use a 15 gallon tank that will fit a 20" frame forks handle bars in it at one time.

As always when using chemicals use the proper PPE

Ted you seem to have a wonderful knowledge of OA, take a look at Sulfamic, if your in the SoCal area I can get you as much as ya need.
Kurt.
QUOTE (mongoosedrummer @ Sep 24 2008, 01:38 AM) *
Kurt, don't insult me blah blah blah.


Here's an idea for you drummer - start your own thread about the wonders of vinegar, rather than your ill informed ranting on Ted's OA thread.
mongoosedrummer
QUOTE (Kurt. @ Sep 23 2008, 10:53 PM) *
Here's an idea for you drummer - start your own thread about the wonders of vinegar, rather than your ill informed ranting on Ted's OA thread.


Here you go again Kurt... Posting nothing about nothing and trying to insult me. Very weak. BTW, what have you added to this subject? Evidently, nothing at all. Why can't you just go back to your Australian based bashing of American Politicians and other non-BMX related nonsense... That's your niche and it suits you.

"Ranting" is reserved for bored, political confused neophytes such as yourself. I spoke here truthfully and honestly about the subject at hand. I am fully informed on the benefits of an alternative to OA. I've used it and I posted about it. That's all... You (sadly), are taking the thread sideways and turning it personal because you have nothing intelligent to add. Everything I have written (save an except addressing your annoyance) is perfectly applicable to this subject and will ultimately help inform a few people (who have open minds) of another way to remove rust from metal. You on the other hand, have nothing to add here (again) and are just repeating what Ted said and trying to bug me. In that respect alone, you have succeeded. If I had an alternative cleaning compound that I could use to get rid of your ignoramous postings, I would have already successfully marketed it all across America and proudly purported the benefits of it as well.

Lastly, I have no problem at all with Ted Carl. He has contributed much information to this site on many subjects including restoration. He is a bright guy and passionate about his convictions... However, that does not exclude anyone from adding their own opinions on the same subjects he talks about. I actually do look forward to starting my own thread on this alternative to OA as he suggested, again, before you re-suggested it. Think before you type. Think of something to add to a subject instead of turning it into something it's not. If you really want to engage me in any sort sort of trash talk (which you seem to be limited to) come on over to OS-BMX. It will be my pleasure to tune you up publicly over there. This is not the right place.
Kurt.
Well we agree on one thing - This is not the place. I apologise to the long term followers of this excellent thread for provoking the above. Back to OA!
Ted Carl
I copied this post, as I found it to be very well thought out. (I hope you don't mind)

Thanks for the help deme, this plastic knife in my back was starting to hurt....lol. wink.gif


deme

QUOTE
Group: Members
Posts: 2
Joined: 18-March 08
Member No.: 15,005




I'll post this here as well.
Not to stir the pot but it may...
pouring anything down the drain goes to the same place in most states. Your local POTW (privately owned treatment works).
And gets treated before being reused or sent to the sewer. So if you pour vinegar down your household drain it goes to the same place as OX would. They would both be treated the same (as they are both acids). The POTW could care less if you dumped 15-20 gal of dilute OX or vinegar down the drain as long as it doesn't contain lead, copper, nickel, chromium, silver, or cadmium. This is what you should be worried about when cleaning metal with vinegar or OX.
but that ok I did the leg work already. Cleaning a chrome frame in OX yielded:
lead ND
Nickel ND
silver ND
zinc ND
Cadmium ND
copper ND
Chrome ND

ND= non detect by my atomic absorption machine which is accurate to 0.001 ppm

I cant imagine vinegar yielding any different results.


Now that 20 gals that your poured down the drain gets diluted 1000x over by everything else sent down the drain by everyone in that POTW's service area.

Both Vinegar and OX should be neutralized before disposal. Seeing as they have almost the same pH (1.1 for vinegar and 1.3 for OX when in liquid)
Now is OX more toxic to you or your family? YES and NO
why?
If used correctly with the proper PPE it is a very low risk chemical.
If I had a choice between vinegar or OX I would use OX. But that's just me.

Most metal resto/finishing shops now use Sulfamic acid. for rust removal and cleaning. Its less odours that both OX and vinegar about as harmful as vinegar and much less reactive.

Sulfamic is in most of your houshold descalers or lime removers as well.

This is what I use solely (sulfamic) the bath I currently have has been working for 4 months. Takes about half the time to clean a frame than vinegar and doesn't stink either.
I have access to pure sulfamic acid powder i use 4 lbs to about 15 gas of water. Which gives you about .44% by weight for the total bath.
You may be able to get this through your local chemical supplier. Or if your in the so cal area hit me up i can get ya some.

When running a tank of OX i used 1 gal wood bleach to 15 gal of water. Much more cost effective than using pure vinegar for big parts.

And if your wondering I work for a water treatment/metal finishing/plating shop.


Great post man!

I believe sulfamic was among the items that were suspected of being in the product "evapo-rust" in a thread a couple of years ago (and mentioned on page one here), along with vinegar, and other key suspects. And yes, there are indeed other things that will work. But the best results, and best bang for the buck, are king.

I do want to point out a few things that could be very confusing about that posting as well though.

First, this thread focuses on using OA crystals. Deme's mixture of 1 gallon of "premixed OA deck cleaning solution in liquid form" to 15 gallons of water could be very confusing here. Using 1 gallon of "pure OA crystals" to 15 gallons of water would yield a wicked potent mixture. A very dangerous mixture even. So lest ye readers not get the two confused! He was talking about pre-diluted OA in a bottle, NOT pure crystals.

Second, I believe your pH numbers are technically correct for Oxalic Acid, as well as for Vinegar, however I think that those numbers are very confusing, and misleading to most people here. Those look like numbers from an MSDS. Which are very much incorrect in what we are doing here.

So, not to prove anything, but to make sure people don't get mislead, or hurt, or otherwise, I will share more of what I know, and why and where these things get misleading.

(Please, anyone in the KNOW, who may shed light to any errors here, please feel free to set the record straight!)

I've been trained in the use of MSDS's once or twice a year for about 16 years. MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) have "Safety" as the cloak they wear. And it's kinda true. However, it's far more complicated than that.

In an age where new chemicals are being born at a rate never seen before in mankind's history, the government needed a place to start keeping track of them all, to protect humanity in general (in the big picture), they are doing so by forcing disclosure. Their actual use in practice is far more complicated than that now.

Because of forced disclosure....Science finds them handy for knowledge. Science finds them handy for discovery. Businessmen hire scientists to take the information in them and steal it for profit....Employees find it handy to discover what their employer's are killing them with. Employees find them handy to use to force employers to take steps to prevent having the chemicals kill them (such as providing protective equipment, ventilation, etc) . Employees have found them useful to use in court to sue employers for.... Etc...

Also they give emergency medical technicians the ability to diagnose, evaluate, and treat chemical injuries, illnesses, threats, burns, etc...

They give fire departments the ability to assess chemical threats, and allow them to train, and ultimately safely battle fires involving chemicals.

They give the EPA information on how chemicals may affect the environment...

Etc...

In short, they are designed to be INDUSTRIAL documents, not "over the counter" back yard remedies. Just like medical journals, and Physician's Desk References (PDR), in the hands of your average Joe, they only lead to misdiagnosis.

Also, in the hands of corporations who don't want to disclose their secret formulas, they tend to be "bent" to their liking as much as possible.

But there are certain standards that must be complied with when generating them. Some can be bent, some can be broken, and some are usually not worth bending, so they are accurate.

I "BELIEVE" that the standard for measuring the pH of a chemical for the purpose of an MSDS, is to measure it at the ABSOLUTE WORST it can be. Chemistry 101. Mixing crystals in water. There are unsaturated mixtures, saturated mixtures, and supersaturated mixtures. A saturated mixture is when water is at a standard temperature (70 degrees F??) and you add as many crystals as you can dissolve in water. If you take a cup of water, and dissolve as much sugar as you can in it, eventually you will get to a point where it just will not dissolve any more, and it will just lay on the bottom. That is a saturated mixture.

If you cool the water it will hold less of them, if you heat the water it will hold more. If you heat the water, and then saturate it, and then cool it, it will become supersaturated.

If you only add a pinch of crystals to the water, it is grossly under-saturated.

So if any meaningful information is to come of a "Standard" or from an MSDS, everyone has to do it the same. In the name of safety, a "Worst case scenario" is desirable. If a truck load of Oxalic Acid tips over and it is raining, just exactly how powerful can that mixture be when someone comes into contact with it?

Therefore, I BELIEVE ALL MSDS measurements on "PURE" chemicals are done at "Saturated Mixtures". It represents HOW BAD it CAN get, so the firemen, EMTs, and workers in the factory know what to do, and how hazardous it can be if things get out of control. This does NOT apply to premixed solutions that are being marketed and branded. IOW toilet bowl cleaner brand "X" may have Oxalic Acid as the primary ingredient, but it is diluted to a pH of "whatever", "as is".

So.... the numbers above, stating a pH of 1.1, and a pH of 1.3 are the absolute worst it can be at complete saturation of the chemical.

What does this all mean exactly?

For starters, we are using a very unsaturated mixture of Oxalic Acid to clean our bike parts. We are only adding "a pinch" of crystals, to a "lot" of water. We are by no means dissolving as much of they crystals that will physically dissolve in the water.

A pH refresher course (Power of Hydrogen). Distilled water is neutral. Neutral is a 7 on the pH scale. As the numbers get lower, the mixture is more ACIDIC. As the numbers go up, the mixture is more BASIC, or ALKALINE.



An important thing to understand is that the scale is logarithmic. This means that for every number away from 7 (neutral) the jump is 10 times greater! So, 8 is ten times more potent than 7, 9 is 100 times more potent than 7, 10 is 1000 times more potent than at 7. So by the time you get near the ends of the scales, you are messing with some REALLY nasty stuff!

Here is the reality of what we are doing. Our tap water is usually between a pH of about 7.5 to 8. (ballpark). It is usually fairly hard water, and contains lots of calcium and such. Sea water is almost always around 8.4 because of the salt. ( I have done a LOT of stuff with aquaria, and I am pretty good with water conditions of the tap, and what is in the lakes, and seas, etc..)

So, assuming my tap water is at 7.5, If I start adding some OA crystals to my tap water, it will start becoming more acidic. But we are starting with water that is alkaline, so the first few pinches of OA crystals will only bring the water to a pH of 7 or neutral pH which is what distilled water is. I have to add more crystals to actually tip it to the acid side of the scales.

Being that we are only adding a few ounces of crystals to a gallon of water, we are not going anywhere near a pH of 1.3! I have never measured one of my mixtures of OA, (though now I may do so sometime) but I can always put my hands in it, and the worst damage I incur is some mild stinging in open wounds. Much like the stinging of orange juice in a hangnail, only not quite as bad.

So, without taking any actual pH measurements, my best guess as to what the pH is of the mixtures we are using would be a little less than orange juice. Maybe a 3 to a 4 on the pH scale (It would be interesting to know for sure, but I think I'm close, and I am out of pH testing chemicals) . Vinegar as it is marketed, is about a 2.

If you were to use "premixed deck cleaner", the bottle may be premixed to a pH of 2, and then diluting it with 15 gallons of water, may bring it to a 3 or 4. (I am only guesstimating here).

So, the OA mixtures we use are very mild, and take very little to bring the solution back to a neutral condition. In fact, after it is used in the bath, and after it starts reacting with things in your pipes such as calcium deposits, it is probably almost neutral by the time it hits the street pipes! I don't sell the stuff, I'm not in it for the money, I'm just telling it like it is to the best of my ability, and not wanting anyone to get confused nor hurt by having no clue about what we are mixing up here.

If we were in fact dealing with an actual pH of 1.3, that would be almost 1 million times more potent than neutral! Indeed, that is the cartoon mixture that can dissolve the spoon mixing it! lol. That could do some damage, for real. The danger increases exponentially at the ends of the scales. The old saying, watch that last step, is a big one!

Enough science for one day. lol.

As for price....One still can't call this procedure "expensive" as it was argued.

Page 9 spelled out the last price I paid for OA crystals.

$3.91 USD per pound of pure OA crystals (16 ounces), shipped (to the US). (It would be less than half of that price if you picked it up, and didn't have to pay more than the price of the OA in shipping and handling!)

16 ounces will mix about 5 gallons of water (or more) of the mixture concentrations we need to do our parts.

I don't think you will find 5 gallons of vinegar for $3.91. Still much cheaper.
deme
Ted,
Plastic knife lol,
I agree with just about everything you said. I just don't want to stray from the intent of my post..
OA is inexpensive and not toxic to the environment if disposed of correctly. I think Drummer took the MSDS to literally.

Where you buy your OA they also carry Sulfamic.
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_...mic_Acid_1.html
It seems only in 50lb bags though. But if you can get some try it out.


All,
OA is safe. Plain and simple (just dont ingest it) so if your using it and like the results keep on using it.

Vinegar works as well although a bit slower and if your worried about safety and have kids running around you can use this instead.

Sulfamic is the same as OA. I prefer it just because I have easy access to as much as I want. And I find it to be "cleaner" (none of that yellow gunk) than OA.

RACEINC43
Hi there Ted. I have a question about Oxalic Acid that I'm hoping you might have an answer for. I've seen how awesome the Oxalic Acid works on chrome plated and nickel plated surfaces. What about steel pieces such as 0-1 and high grade "tool" steels that have been precision ground and have a shiny/chrome-like surface? As an example, the jaws of a Kurt vise or a Starrett machinist square.

Here's the deal. I used to be a machinist and put my tool boxes away in storage. I got them out of storage and some of my angles and vises had rust on them. I used the Oxalic Acid method and it did get the rust off, BUT, it turned my shiny precision ground surfaces to a black/very, very, dark grey color. It also made the smooth feeling surface feel slightly rough or like a matte finish. And while it did remove the rust, you can still see the marks/scars where the rust was. And I did coat everything in that LPS 3 as soon as I dried them off, but it seems like the rust is already starting to come back already.

So my question is, should Oxalic Acid only be used on "plated" surfaces like chrome and nickel since the surface is hard and not pourus? If it can't be used on unplated, raw, or ground metals/steels, any ideas on how to remove the rust "gently" so I don't mess up the ground surfaces? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'll try to take some pics of the few pieces I've done so you can see what I'm talking about and the before and after. Thanks much.

Brian


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