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Full Version: We're not talking about the Tulsa Epicenter thing?
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Elvis
Link to Tulsa World article at bottom of BMXnews link

http://www.bmxnews.com/2015/08/usa-bmx-epi...-land-in-tulsa/

JMLVMI
A few hot (and slightly cynical) takes from the article while I'm at work:

QUOTE
“The minute they open the doors, their impact is $20 million to $30 million a year,” Hoyt said. “And we’d be home to USA BMX and an Olympic training facility.”

I think this is supposing that the Grands would be held here because of this facility...but they are held in Tulsa already. Would the Grands be held outside...in Tulsa in November (Avg. temp = 48*F)?

I don't think there is any track that brings in that amount of money (real or "economic impact" money). What is Rock Hill predicting that the Worlds are going to bring in 2017


QUOTE
“And we’d be home to USA BMX and an Olympic training facility.”

USABMX would move here from Chandler? Is that part of the deal?


If USABMX isn't moving their headquarters...

QUOTE
A move also would bring 55 jobs to Tulsa, he said.

This must include the construction contractor to build the thing. 55 jobs...to run a BMX track and facility? Man, TOs around the country will be SUPER jealous.

I would love to have a mega facility, and any city council who is jazzed about BMX makes me super happy...just think some of these numbers might be a little too good to be true.
Bumpy
The presentation to the council begins at 5:00:

http://tulsa-ok.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.p...mp;clip_id=2831

It appears to be little more than an attempt by a design/construction firm to get a hold of tax money. The presenter didn't seem to understand BMX and was exaggerating much of what he was saying.

Although a nice design, I can't see this as a viable project to the Tulsa voters.

Someone else proposed a monorail! Lol.
bmxundergrounddotcom
I'm really opposed to this type of stuff from the onset. I don't like tax dollars going to sports venues and the like. The "jobs" they create are often minimum wage or temporary, as in construction or project management. But, I guess if the money has to go somewhere, it might as well be a BMX track.
99BMXican
Pretty sure that is the same picture they used when trying to get Gilbert to build the epicenter. Gilbert said NO to taxes
thebondtrader55
LOL.

These things remind me of the way a speaker at a convention seminar described my business years ago. He said, "The LBO business is like sex. When it's good its fantastic. And even when its bad its still pretty good.

It seems to me that the owners of our sanction are just doing what they should be doing - trying to move their business forward. Whats wrong with that? And they are doing their dead level best to do it with OPM. No problem with that at all.

One thing that is often overlooked in these affairs is that the people have legally elected their reps to make these decisions for them. If the voters lose faith in their reps and/or think that these "pay to play" deals aren't a good thing for the community the option is always there to vote them out. And to attend public meetings and scream bloody murder while waiting on election day.

Its hard for me as a bidnezz guy to find fault with someone who is getting up every morning and pitching ideas. I for one will be watching and hoping it goes through.

Why not see what happens?

WillMurray
Pretty much what every major company looking for tax breaks and public money does when they don't get their way. They leave and go somewhere that will 'accommodate' them. Take that Gilbert......
thebondtrader55
That's true Will.

Down here in deep South Texas we have Dow Chemical building a huge new complex.

The CEO currently in place is known for his no nonsense, blunt approach. He makes no bones about what the company expects in the way of tax breaks and concessions. The penalty for not doing this is that the company WILL WITHOUT DOUBT build somewhere else.

It seems to me that the voters have made their peace with this type of thing. It is after all their option to do so. Business and government are now firmly joined at the hip and this may possibly be only the natural progression. Not sure if this is permanent or just an era we're going through.

It is for sure a great thing for the businesses that receive the funding. The jury is out on whether or not it is a good thing for the citizenry. Many studies over the last decade have pretty much shown that the economic benefits aren't nearly what was touted decades ago when this was new. Its why there is so much push back now from voters for new stadiums and things like that. It is not nearly so much a slam dunk as it used to be to obtain funding. The "Golden Age" of this is no doubt past.

If it goes through this could be a good thing for BMX in general. It could also be a very good thing for Tulsa which after all isn't a garden spot that people all over the world are trying to get to.

Lets wait and see if this can go through and actually be built.

If so many kudos from here for the leadership of USABMX.

John De Bruin
As Wisconsin has trended from blue to red over the past few years, we've kept Harley Davidson and Mercury Marine from leaving (just to cite two recognizable names). In fact, shortly after the deal was done, Mercury Marine announced they were closing their Texas(?) facility to bring it all together up here. Both were facilitated by tax breaks.

As for tax breaks, it's not like we don't have room to give these out to corporations. The United States has the highest corporate tax rate of any developed country in the world at 39.1%. So if there is a justifiable tool to work with, that's certainly it.

The reality with business is that it needs to be run like a "business", but our government should be run like a business too. In terms of states vying for corporations that add jobs, it's fair game and game-on in Wisconsin...and I am very cool with that.

As for "bicycle friendly", Wisconsin is constantly comparing itself to Washington State for bicycle friendly, with Madison and Appleton leading the charge.

Geographically-speaking, Wisconsin wouldn't work for USABMX. But we are a state that would see enormous value in a venture like this from both the blue and red side of the table. Hopefully USABMX will find that in Oklahoma.
Bumpy
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Aug 14 2015, 08:02 AM) *
If it goes through this could be a good thing for BMX in general. It could also be a very good thing for Tulsa which after all isn't a garden spot that people all over the world are trying to get to.

Lets wait and see if this can go through and actually be built.

If so many kudos from here for the leadership of USABMX.


The response to the question of "If the facility is built will USA BMX move their headquarters to Tulsa?" was "I can't speak for their CEO". I don't see how USA BMX is much involved in this.

As depicted, the full cost of the facility is estimated at $45M. As a comparison our local minor league ballpark cost $25M (in 2003) and its operation consistently generates ~$10M a year in revenue. Does anyone believe $45M is a reasonable investment for a BMX Hall of Fame, a BMX track, and some office space for a small business?

I don't feel the same level of optimism as others do. If too many of these things are built, and fail, it will cause damage that the BMX industry will have a hard time absorbing.
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Bumpy @ Aug 14 2015, 04:12 PM) *
The response to the question of "If the facility is built will USA BMX move their headquarters to Tulsa?" was "I can't speak for their CEO". I don't see how USA BMX is much involved in this.

As depicted, the full cost of the facility is estimated at $45M. As a comparison our local minor league ballpark cost $25M (in 2003) and its operation consistently generates ~$10M a year in revenue. Does anyone believe $45M is a reasonable investment for a BMX Hall of Fame, a BMX track, and some office space for a small business?

I don't feel the same level of optimism as others do. If too many of these things are built, and fail, it will cause damage that the BMX industry will have a hard time absorbing.

Good points all.

Any updates on the future of this idea and proposal?
Elvis
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Sep 4 2015, 09:24 AM) *
Good points all.

Any updates on the future of this idea and proposal?


Looks like Mom's getting on Tulsa time

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vision-pa...coming#stream/0
System
Mike is doing a podcast with John David today and he will confirm the mother ship will be relocating to Tulsa within the next 3 years.
ANT DOG 3:16
Did not see above link
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Elvis @ Apr 6 2016, 12:58 PM) *

Very happy to see this for the organization and the sport. Many kudos to the men/women who's hard work made this possible.

Good Job, USABMX.
Bumpy
I was so skeptical and wrong about this but was just as excited to hear that it is happening.

It's going to be pretty awesome pulling in to this place for the first time and riding the track.
Capt. Caveman
As a person who lives just a few miles from the fairgrounds in Tulsa. I always looked forward to the Grands, and Sooners coming to town. Now I am super excited. I have never sat in front of a tv watching vote results before, and every time it updated that it was passing, I got a little more happy. I don't know exactly how its going to change the local BMX Racing scene, but I can only imagine it to get better. Tulsa voters really came through on this one.
MikeCarruth


BMX News podcast with John David


Listen now on BMXNEWS.COM


Enjoy!

M
Capt. Caveman
Thanks for posting that Mike
Stromania
If the total expected cost is $45 million, where does the remaining $30 million come from?
MikeCarruth

Where did it say $45 million? The highest estimate I saw (when they were planning for Gilbert) was $21MM, but that included a purpose-built HQ and training building which they do not need in Tulsa, hence $15MM from the city.


Best,

M
reedhamilton
A huge credibility boost for the sport. These are the type of things you can accomplish post-merger (ABA/NBL).

Congratulations USA BMX!
Stromania
QUOTE (MikeCarruth @ Apr 7 2016, 08:34 AM) *
Where did it say $45 million? The highest estimate I saw (when they were planning for Gilbert) was $21MM, but that included a purpose-built HQ and training building which they do not need in Tulsa, hence $15MM from the city.


Best,

M



The link below, which also has the power point presentation, lists an estimated cost of $45 million. It also lists the 5yr economic impact as $10 million, but some articles are stating an ROI of $20-$30 million per year. There is another article I read yesterday which mentions $45 million cost, but I'm having trouble finding it now.

http://www.batesline.com/archives/2016/01/...-simulator.html


Just found this
https://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/430584/BMXForm.pdf
Bumpy
QUOTE (MikeCarruth @ Apr 7 2016, 08:34 AM) *
Where did it say $45 million? The highest estimate I saw (when they were planning for Gilbert) was $21MM, but that included a purpose-built HQ and training building which they do not need in Tulsa, hence $15MM from the city.


Best,

M


I believe in the original presentation to the Tulsa board it was stated that total cost of the design as it was presented (with a roof and auxiliary buildings) was $45 million.
BMX56
QUOTE (reedhamilton @ Apr 7 2016, 10:41 AM) *
A huge credibility boost for the sport. These are the type of things you can accomplish post-merger (ABA/NBL).

Congratulations USA BMX!



What has been the over all impact of the Manchester UK facility 5 years on?
Elvis
QUOTE (BMX56 @ Apr 7 2016, 02:11 PM) *
What has been the over all impact of the Manchester UK facility 5 years on?


Well, off the top of my head, a bunch of people voted in a BMX-o-plex in a major American city (which has an oil rig on state capitol ground, true story).




Capt. Caveman
the 45 million was in original proposal. Like Mike said with the fact of a building already in place for the headquarters and such. 15 million should be total cost of this.
Bumpy
QUOTE (Capt. Caveman @ Apr 7 2016, 10:18 PM) *
the 45 million was in original proposal. Like Mike said with the fact of a building already in place for the headquarters and such. 15 million should be total cost of this.


Hard to say what the total should be at this point. $15MM is for sure a great start.

For reference, a typical Costco building is ~$11MM for just the 150,000 square feet of warehouse, and are built with the most efficient means possible. The Manchester BMX arena cost ~$33MM for 110,000 square feet.
BMX56
QUOTE (Bumpy @ Apr 8 2016, 12:29 AM) *
Hard to say what the total should be at this point. $15MM is for sure a great start.

For reference, a typical Costco building is ~$11MM for just the 150,000 square feet of warehouse, and are built with the most efficient means possible. The Manchester BMX arena cost ~$33MM for 110,000 square feet.



Some of that price tag for Manchester included infrastructure such as a bridge.

I always felt that having the money more widely distributed in the grass roots would have had a greater long term impact, but the money is tied to a location as in the Manchester case. If you look at the UK 2012 Olympic investment, overall it made a short term difference but went into decline soon after. The best bang for your buck is probably to be found in increasing trainers and improving club management, plus upgrades of established facilities, better overall facility design and execution coupled to innovation.
thebondtrader55
I think that the plans in Arizona were for new construction. Obviously the large construction costs in Tulsa are done because the buildings are extant.

Also the building costs in Tulsa should be quite a bit cheaper than building in Phoenix.

As far as the effect this will have five/ten years down the road I would expect none at all. Why should it? Why should anyone care in the least where BA and John David hang their hats? It's a given that the sanction has a headquarters somewhere.

The people in this whole thing who will/should care the most are the employees of USABMX. If someone made the announcement that I was expected to move from Phoenix, Arizona to Tulsa, Oklahoma my next move would be polishing my resume.

My wife fought this for years as Dow Chemical continually tried to promote her from Houston, Texas to Midland, Michigan. YIKES!!! - no thank you.

But it is exciting that the management of the sanction is out there pursuing and pitching ideas. They aren't resting on their laurels. And management that is thinking outside the box is demonstrating that they aren't afraid of new ideas and new procedures.

Now if some of this movement can just turn into dollar generation!
Brett Middaugh
It's surprising to me that in this time in the country, tax payers are ok with using public funds to help out private companies.
I always thought that the tenant of capitalism was that business should succeed, fail, grow or shrink upon its own demand for its product without help from taxpayers. The market decides.
As a conservative, I cannot support this idea. It's sort of shocking to me that in OK, a red state, that voters are ok with putting their tax dollars into private enterprise. It's very anti-capitalist.
As a liberal, I can't support this idea because the funds that were voted in are not being used to help the general populace.
As an independent, my head just exploded, LOL.

As a BMXer, good for USABMX for using the system to their advantage.

As me, I'd rather see a public skatepark, ramp park, dirt jump, pump track, cycling path facility that everyone could use for that 15 million. But then again, I'm a round peg on flat level surface with no holes in it.
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Brett Middaugh @ Apr 8 2016, 09:22 AM) *
It's surprising to me that in this time in the country, tax payers are ok with using public funds to help out private companies.
I always thought that the tenant of capitalism was that business should succeed, fail, grow or shrink upon its own demand for its product without help from taxpayers. The market decides.
As a conservative, I cannot support this idea. It's sort of shocking to me that in OK, a red state, that voters are ok with putting their tax dollars into private enterprise. It's very anti-capitalist.
As a liberal, I can't support this idea because the funds that were voted in are not being used to help the general populace.
As an independent, my head just exploded, LOL.

As a BMXer, good for USABMX for using the system to their advantage.

As me, I'd rather see a public skatepark, ramp park, dirt jump, pump track, cycling path facility that everyone could use for that 15 million. But then again, I'm a round peg on flat level surface with no holes in it.

Yep.
thebondtrader55
Just to be clear.

I have no problem with the sanction pursuing this deal.

All they can do is play the board as they find it.

This whole "municipalities in bidness" is controversial to say the least.

It has many unexpected detractors and supporters.
FaithBMX
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Apr 8 2016, 02:33 PM) *
The people in this whole thing who will/should care the most are the employees of USABMX. If someone made the announcement that I was expected to move from Phoenix, Arizona to Tulsa, Oklahoma my next move would be polishing my resume.

Any word on who is willing to move and who isn't?
MikeCarruth
While it IS on the horizon, it's still three years away--and with construction delays always possible on a project of this scale, maybe longer. Lots of time to either get the family ready to move, or to train-up for a new job in AZ.

I think the USA BMX staff are almost cult-like in their loyalty to the company (and I mean that in the best possible way). It strikes me that the overwhelming majority will be sticking around long enough to get them a new cell phone with a 918 area code.

Just a guess, of course.

M
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (FaithBMX @ Apr 8 2016, 11:50 AM) *
Any word on who is willing to move and who isn't?

LOL.

It'll be interesting to see!


QUOTE (MikeCarruth @ Apr 8 2016, 02:57 PM) *
While it IS on the horizon, it's still three years away--and with construction delays always possible on a project of this scale, maybe longer. Lots of time to either get the family ready to move, or to train-up for a new job in AZ.

I think the USA BMX staff are almost cult-like in their loyalty to the company (and I mean that in the best possible way). It strikes me that the overwhelming majority will be sticking around long enough to get them a new cell phone with a 918 area code.

Just a guess, of course.

M

I would think thats probably true.

Big change for sure.
bnd
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Apr 8 2016, 08:54 PM) *
LOL.

It'll be interesting to see!



I would think thats probably true.

Big change for sure.


Iv'e been to Tulsa 3 times and the last was in 2002, unless the town has changed ALOT, you couldn't pay me enough to live there.

b.
System
From thrillist.com: Most Underrated Places in Each State

Oklahoma

Tulsa
Why you need to go: At just under a million people in its metro area, Tulsa is the smallest American city with its own ballet, opera, and symphony. And while it was once an oil hub, it has reinvented itself with burgeoning aerospace and finance industries and is routinely ranked as a top destination for young professionals thanks to its low cost of living and commute times. It's also just a short drive to Natural Falls State Park and the Talimena National Scenic Byway -- one of the top drives in the nation for fall colors. Next year, Tulsa will welcome the Gathering Place, a 100-acre Downtown park along the Arkansas River and the largest private land grant for a park in US history. Seriously, a visit to Tulsa will give you a whole new perspective on this proud plains state. You will not be disappointed.

Must-do: Oktoberfest, if you can make it there in time. Tulsa’s is ranked among the top 10 in the world. Also, grab a slice from Umberto's on South Harvard Ave -- do it!
g-mo
QUOTE (MikeCarruth @ Apr 8 2016, 12:57 PM) *
It strikes me that the overwhelming majority will be sticking around long enough to get them a new cell phone with a 918 area code.

Just a guess, of course.

M


My cell still starts with 314, wink.gif
edwards
I'd do it in a heart beat. Living in NY is horrible with our taxes.

HinkDog411
Hmmmm....and here I am packing for my move to Tulsa (made that decision last month) and this happens....
Capt. Caveman
Hink I think you have been on the down low this whole time. You knew this was happening hahaa see ya in a couple of weeks
Elvis
QUOTE (Brett Middaugh @ Apr 8 2016, 09:22 AM) *
It's surprising to me that in this time in the country, tax payers are ok with using public funds to help out private companies.
I always thought that the tenant of capitalism was that business should succeed, fail, grow or shrink upon its own demand for its product without help from taxpayers. The market decides.
As a conservative, I cannot support this idea. It's sort of shocking to me that in OK, a red state, that voters are ok with putting their tax dollars into private enterprise. It's very anti-capitalist.
As a liberal, I can't support this idea because the funds that were voted in are not being used to help the general populace.
As an independent, my head just exploded, LOL.

As a BMXer, good for USABMX for using the system to their advantage.

As me, I'd rather see a public skatepark, ramp park, dirt jump, pump track, cycling path facility that everyone could use for that 15 million. But then again, I'm a round peg on flat level surface with no holes in it.


He typed, on teh Internets, originally created with public funds, and expanded with further public funds. Private industry didn't come 'til much later

Later we can fly out to a race, using federal airways by commercial aviation, which didn't exist until the government funded it, essentially creating it. Or, instead, drive, on the Interstate, created to facilitiate Interstate commerce using private federal funds.

While the "don't spend money" thing has been popular in various circles of late, the fact is government spending is what kicks most things in the rear (examples abound. Sitting around waiting for private money to do it and you'd by typing this on a wood typewriter by candlelight.

If anything it makes great sense of Tulsa to do this. Grands fills up hotel rooms that would sit empty over Thanksgiving. After meals, gas and yadda the tax bump just from that event makes a difference in that town. Then the dirt's already in the arena for the Chili Bowl, lowering cost-of across the board.

Then the early-year bump from the Sooners, again during an otherwise slack time, makes even more sense. You ever wonder what the wait at the Cracker Barrel (which depends on the federal highway system) would be if BMX wasn't in town?

Y'all, why do you think we're seeing more cities get onboard with helping BMX? My friend who got the indoor going in Monroe, LA, same deal, the city wanted some of that sweet sweet tax revenue and was willing to invest to get it. That's what cities do. Then with the revenue they buy fire trucks and fix bridges and everybody wins.

Also, Tulsa's a great town. Homestead culture, salt of the earth. Durn' few poseurs when everybody's accepted for who they are. Great skatepark there as well (some insanely great riders) and trails, all that. Just a great scene, and the cost of living is low. Good schools too. It's no Arkansas, but then 49 tries and one win.
Capt. Caveman
Elvis im never one to correct you but......
The Grands dirt and the Chili Bowl clay are two different piles at the fairgrounds. If the Chili Bowl used our dirt they would be racing on concrete in a matter of minutes. The Chili bowl runs on good old Oklahoma black clay. it packs down and stays solid under the cars tires.
Other than that I agree with you completely smile.gif
D_Man
Tax revenues for two big races a year are nice, but I wonder how long it will take to recoup the investment? That might depend a bit on what the scene looks like inbetween. We have a pretty nice track and facility at the Olympic training center in Chula Vista, Ca. But aside from a few bigger races, we're talking 10-moto skeleton crew events. Hope the scene in Tulsa is better.
BMX2mom
QUOTE (D_Man @ Apr 12 2016, 07:45 AM) *
Tax revenues for two big races a year are nice, but I wonder how long it will take to recoup the investment? That might depend a bit on what the scene looks like inbetween. We have a pretty nice track and facility at the Olympic training center in Chula Vista, Ca. But aside from a few bigger races, we're talking 10-moto skeleton crew events. Hope the scene in Tulsa is better.


Once it is open it should take 2 years to recoup the investment. The track just outside of Tulsa has 10-12 motos weekly, it is Sand Springs BMX. Go check them out the Weds before Grands, they host a double every year.
HinkDog411
Chula Vista won't be an OTC for too much longer though. I'm sure the rack will remain, the city sees the value.
BMX2mom
QUOTE (HinkDog411 @ Apr 12 2016, 10:08 PM) *
Chula Vista won't be an OTC for too much longer though. I'm sure the rack will remain, the city sees the value.


Is this for certain? I understood Chula is the USA OTC and that Tulsa would be an international OTC.

QUOTE (HinkDog411 @ Apr 12 2016, 10:08 PM) *
Chula Vista won't be an OTC for too much longer though. I'm sure the rack will remain, the city sees the value.


Is this for certain? I understood Chula is the USA OTC and that Tulsa would be an international OTC.
FaithBMX
So, wait a minute. Tulsa will be an OTC; standalone for BMX; not just the USABMX HQ?
BMX2mom
Yes, that has been in the news for a long time.
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