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Antagonist
QUOTE (customerservice @ Jun 29 2012, 08:49 PM) *
Ant, I love the idea of combining experts to get 6 or more on the gate. Bailey would benifit greatly! Let's do it!!

Jason, I would love to do it, however I would need the USABMX to bless it before I implemented it. Currently the software does not cater for this "rule change", so the best I can do is encourage riders to sign up for Opens (they are free, must race class.)
KAM
QUOTE (customerservice @ Jun 29 2012, 02:49 PM) *
Ant, I love the idea of combining experts to get 6 or more on the gate. Bailey would benifit greatly! Let's do it!!


I haven't read thru the entire thread. But, YES on this at a local level. At our local track the handful of experts are all in different age brackets. Frustrating for everyone! The experts from 19-47 want to race each other but the motomaker uses the xperts to complete different mixes of Novice and Inters. I have seen a complete novice have to race a 14x and 19x in total points. Poor guy really loved the track. But, after 2 races told me that it was ridiculous and didn't come back.

I understand the use for opens to solve this. But, some guys are chasing points and wont enter just an open.
thebondtrader55
Whatever the membership decides is fine with me.

Thanks
Bmx Prof
QUOTE (KAM @ Jul 2 2012, 07:25 PM) *
I have seen a complete novice have to race a 14x and 19x in total points. Poor guy really loved the track. But, after 2 races told me that it was ridiculous and didn't come back.



Exactly... and it isn't any better for the expert.

On side note, I heard one of the proponents of requiring NAG riders to race locals complaining about the issue of racing significantly out of class at a race this weekend.
Bikemonkeys
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jul 2 2012, 07:18 PM) *
Exactly... and it isn't any better for the expert.

On side note, I heard one of the proponents of requiring NAG riders to race locals complaining about the issue of racing significantly out of class at a race this weekend.

It's no better for girls racing inter. Girls should have the choice to race mixed open and open at nationals and state races. I've got a local inter class that hopes the local girl is at a national, it gives them a shot at winning. And girls that hope they make a class to avoid racing the Slower boys.

USABMX has done a good job making classes across the country, but there are places that don't quite fit the mold.
MeredithJL
QUOTE (Bikemonkeys @ Jul 2 2012, 08:52 PM) *
It's no better for girls racing inter. Girls should have the choice to race mixed open and open at nationals and state races. I've got a local inter class that hopes the local girl is at a national, it gives them a shot at winning. And girls that hope they make a class to avoid racing the Slower boys.

USABMX has done a good job making classes across the country, but there are places that don't quite fit the mold.


Yeah. I've always wondered why regular opens are off-limits to females. Can anyone from the sanction chime in and explain this to me? Please tell me what it is about girls that makes them not good enough to race expert boys in open classes. Is it the same mindset that says women pro's don't deserve the same amount of prize money as the men do, even if they're racing the same track? Is it that all these decisions are made by middle-aged men? Someone clue me in. I want to know.
Bmx Prof
QUOTE (MeredithJL @ Jul 3 2012, 04:42 AM) *
Please tell me what it is about girls that makes them not good enough to race expert boys in open classes.


An 'X' chromosome. tongue.gif

I saw a picture of Caroline holding up her check for $350 for winning the SLC National. Just think... If she wins 4 races, she can afford a flight to the States from Australia. That seems almost like a slap in the face to the Pro women.

As for girls racing in the Open class, I have never understood the need for two open classes. It defeats the purpose of an "open"... It should be called the "kinda open" and the "other open"!

For the record, I do not support the X chromosome being the difference maker.
FOS
QUOTE (MeredithJL @ Jul 2 2012, 11:42 PM) *
Yeah. I've always wondered why regular opens are off-limits to females. Can anyone from the sanction chime in and explain this to me? Please tell me what it is about girls that makes them not good enough to race expert boys in open classes. Is it the same mindset that says women pro's don't deserve the same amount of prize money as the men do, even if they're racing the same track? Is it that all these decisions are made by middle-aged men? Someone clue me in. I want to know.

women pros dont deserve the same prize money as the men pros because A. they are not racing the same level or amount of competition and B. the public does not have the interest in womens pros to subsidize the fact that there are fewer of them racing and that they are slower.
thebondtrader55
Some good stuff on this subject we have been discussing for over 300 posts in BMXNEWS.

Check it out if you haven't already.

Hope everyone is having a great Fourth!
woodybmx86
I know in the NBL the women pros made more than the Vet Pros and the A pros, but not as much as teh AA. They also paid substantially less in fees than the AA. Made sense to me. is this NOT so in ABA/USA bmx? I always thought it was a little unfair to both other men's classes, as they typically had more, and in A pro, vastly more riders, but made more money. Especially as for a decade or so, they paid fees the same amount as amateurs... yet made more money.

That being said, I dont think they should make the same money as the Elites. They just dont have the numbers.
cjbmxr
Shouldn't this be about bringing more people into this great sport? The real problem is attracting new riders and then retention!

We should be asking ourselves why kids aren't lined up to sign up and once they ride once, why aren't they hooked?

I know the reason...do you?
JAF2
QUOTE (cjbmxr @ Jul 5 2012, 01:49 PM) *
Shouldn't this be about bringing more people into this great sport? The real problem is attracting new riders and then retention!

We should be asking ourselves why kids aren't lined up to sign up and once they ride once, why aren't they hooked?

I know the reason...do you?

Please tell.
MeredithJL
QUOTE (FOS @ Jul 4 2012, 03:21 AM) *
women pros dont deserve the same prize money as the men pros because A. they are not racing the same level or amount of competition and B. the public does not have the interest in womens pros to subsidize the fact that there are fewer of them racing and that they are slower.


Nothing new here from your vault of golden insight, Schmick.

The fact that am girls aren't allowed to race expert open is still bullsh1t.
Antagonist
QUOTE (cjbmxr @ Jul 5 2012, 03:49 PM) *
We should be asking ourselves why kids aren't lined up to sign up and once they ride once, why aren't they hooked?

I know the reason...do you?

Don't leave me in suspense like this, I truly would like to know...
Bikemonkeys
QUOTE (MeredithJL @ Jul 6 2012, 04:39 PM) *
The fact that am girls aren't allowed to race expert open is still bullsh1t.



D@mn straight!!!!
Jason F.
Been absent for a while, just going to post this and go back to lurking. We have been doing a lot more nationals this year, as many as we can feasably afford and get too, and the cost is MIND NUMBING. I know if there are people in my situation maybe the reason they dont race as many locals is they cant afford too!!!

My son is 16 and he really doesnt have any local competition 95% of the time, couple kids are close but nothing to tangle with, and the ones that are close are in the upper age groups so sometimes he lucks out and gets stuck with them, but usually so far he is stuck in the 17-18 inter class.....right, thats fun for him rolleyes.gif , I tell him its good for the other guys to chase him but thats no consolation to a 16 year old.

Any way I think the aba is doing everyone a disservice with the national every weekend thing. Also now that I have been to a few more in seveal states and countries, I think age group only is a great idea, the racks would still be deep and the rider count would drop a bit at first but it certainly would keep the baggers honest, and it WOULD make the kis try harder, thats human nature, and would improve turn outs at local clinics and practice sessions...got to sell the whole package all the time.

Take care and carry on.

p.s. clips suck, FLATS FOR LIFE.
Bmx Prof
QUOTE (Jason F. @ Jul 13 2012, 08:45 PM) *
p.s. clips suck, FLATS FOR LIFE.



Man.... I was speechless as I agreed with everything in your post... until you posted clips suck! tongue.gif

On a side note, I was sad to see this thread disappear. I thought I might hit AA Pro status from this thread alone. I've been working on it since 2003.
JAF2
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jul 13 2012, 05:08 PM) *
Man.... I was speechless as I agreed with everything in your post... until you posted clips suck! tongue.gif

On a side note, I was sad to see this thread disappear. I thought I might hit AA Pro status from this thread alone. I've been working on it since 2003.

Time for it to die.
bystickel
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jul 14 2012, 01:59 AM) *
Time for it to die.


It would be great if folks around the country, T.O.s especially, would post their moto counts, every single week.

Where else are we going to get the information about whether or not BMX is growing?

The sanction isn't too interested in communication.
Bikemonkeys
QUOTE (bystickel @ Jul 13 2012, 10:25 PM) *
It would be great if folks around the country, T.O.s especially, would post their moto counts, every single week.

Where else are we going to get the information about whether or not BMX is growing?

The sanction isn't too interested in communication.

That wouldn't really be helpful, as my track's attendance is pretty opposite to tracks around the country. When most tracks are cranking up, we're going down and as we go up others are under snow.
JAF2
QUOTE (Bikemonkeys @ Jul 13 2012, 11:54 PM) *
That wouldn't really be helpful, as my track's attendance is pretty opposite to tracks around the country. When most tracks are cranking up, we're going down and as we go up others are under snow.

It would be interesting if there were a single source website that all tracks reported on and updated on a weekly basis. There could be a "report card" that summarized average rider/moto counts on a national, regional, and state level (I would hope that USABMX is monitoring this data already). The numbers could drill down to track level identifying rider and moto counts by class (especially valuable to Experts, Girls, and older Cruisers who are looking for competition to race against) at each reporting track. This data would be beneficial to USABMX in pin pointing growth and best practices.

Additonal info on this website would include a summary review of the track (difficulty, length, etc) with images/video, history, schedule, clinics, opens, contact info, etc. The current system of multiple track websites (many not updated) is inconvienent at best when researching tracks. All national business' with both corporate and franchised owned locations, have a one source website resource. Advertising could offset the cost and allow for links to other sports/business' for cross market exposure (think the Hyper and DK race bikes at Walmart as discussed on Vintage).
Bmx Prof
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jul 14 2012, 12:18 PM) *
It would be interesting if there were a single source website that all tracks reported on and updated on a weekly basis. There could be a "report card" that summarized average rider/moto counts on a national, regional, and state level (I would hope that USABMX is monitoring this data already). The numbers could drill down to track level identifying rider and moto counts by class (especially valuable to Experts, Girls, and older Cruisers who are looking for competition to race against) at each reporting track. This data would be beneficial to USABMX in pin pointing growth and best practices.

Additonal info on this website would include a summary review of the track (difficulty, length, etc) with images/video, history, schedule, clinics, opens, contact info, etc. The current system of multiple track websites (many not updated) is inconvienent at best when researching tracks. All national business' with both corporate and franchised owned locations, have a one source website resource. Advertising could offset the cost and allow for links to other sports/business' for cross market exposure (think the Hyper and DK race bikes at Walmart as discussed on Vintage).


Now that isn't a bad idea. However, if a track gets a bad score... will it work against a tracks growth? Just thinking out loud here.
JAF2
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jul 14 2012, 08:25 AM) *
Now that isn't a bad idea. However, if a track gets a bad score... will it work against a tracks growth? Just thinking out loud here.

Maybe the "report card" section would be pass code protected for "officials" and the rest of the site would be an open resource.
g-mo
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jul 14 2012, 07:18 AM) *
It would be interesting if there were a single source website that all tracks reported on and updated on a weekly basis. There could be a "report card" that summarized average rider/moto counts on a national, regional, and state level (I would hope that USABMX is monitoring this data already). The numbers could drill down to track level identifying rider and moto counts by class (especially valuable to Experts, Girls, and older Cruisers who are looking for competition to race against) at each reporting track. This data would be beneficial to USABMX in pin pointing growth and best practices.

Additonal info on this website would include a summary review of the track (difficulty, length, etc) with images/video, history, schedule, clinics, opens, contact info, etc. The current system of multiple track websites (many not updated) is inconvienent at best when researching tracks. All national business' with both corporate and franchised owned locations, have a one source website resource. Advertising could offset the cost and allow for links to other sports/business' for cross market exposure (think the Hyper and DK race bikes at Walmart as discussed on Vintage).


Something similar is in the works...
thebondtrader55
The sanction knows, and has known for a long time, what the true numbers are in regard to the local situation. It's a big part, if not the only part, of the reason they made a decision over 10 years ago to concentrate on something they can control - namely the National scene.

If the members saw the TRUE numbers as described here it would show everyone just how few tracks actually make up viable, age correct motos on a regular basis. I can't imagine why the ABA would EVER release such damaging numbers without massaging them first.

They have no vested interest in doing so.

All the Best
Elvis
Posting numbers helpful to growth, or helpful to Internets navel gazing?

thebondtrader55
Posting numbers won't help growth.

The system in place is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

All the Best
Bmx Prof
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jul 14 2012, 07:41 PM) *
Posting numbers won't help growth.

The system in place is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

All the Best


You mean stay in business?
JAF2
QUOTE (Elvis @ Jul 14 2012, 01:37 PM) *
Posting numbers helpful to growth, or helpful to Internets navel gazing?

As a resource, numbers are beneficial in determining if a track would be worth racing at (time and travel expense). Numbers are the only true way to determine if a program is successful and growing, stagnat, or declining. It seems that the membership as a whole, wants to know the numbers.

Without "new" riders (truely new and those returning from years past) the sport will die a slow death. As fewer riders race on a local level, there will be fewer riders who will want to race on a local level (beginning with the Experts as stated much earlier in this thread). Fewer riders, smaller moto counts, and the current challenge of riders having to race out of class only impedes entry of new riders into the sport. Over time, attrition will deplete the membership.

Navel gazing? Yes, I have a self interest in the sport of BMX racing but do not practice yoga.

Elvis, it is clear how you have accomplished so much with so many posts. Do you have a job or live with your mom?
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jul 15 2012, 08:13 AM) *
You mean stay in business?

Lol! You're right - thats how it's being done.

B, it's a system that is meant to concentrate on the Nationals - that much is clear. Anyone that would argue this point after 15 years of observing what is happening right under their nose is essentially arguing about whether or not air exists.

Elvis, who I respect greatly, is taking anything that is said about the sanction personally and frankly I have no idea why. This in business is always a mistake.

I am not upset with the ABA's model although I don't understand why they refuse to see that they are getting only a small part of the benefit from their market. The national scene as they have it configured is a thing of beauty but it is only capturing the " tip end of the tail of the dog". In contrast to E's repeated assertion of how hard the staff at the ABA is working my assertion would be that the ABA's model is the EASY way to make money at ABA bicycle racing. It is almost a surety that they will have a full house (and gates) every two weeks no matter where they go that services a cluster of local BMX tracks. This is the easy, very lucrative part. They are in almost complete control over this. Bravo!

In contrast to this the local scenes have been left to fend for themselves with minimal support. It is obvious that a set point has been determined that will keep the farm system for the Nationals churning and that is done and no more. After all the years of ownership I'm sure it is very clear to the powers that be just how hard it is (impossible?) for them to control very strong local personalities and local realities in order to expand local racing. And the reality is that they have quit trying and have ceded this very hard task to the local leaders to do with it as they will. The ABA's "track packages" for locals is eerily similar to the ones they have been sending out for the last 30 years. If the person wanting to start a track is some weird mixture of heavy equipment operator, PR hotshot, marketing wizard, financial guru, rabid BMX bicycle racer who just happens to be a great self starter who wants to spend 40 hours a week in addition to his/her regular job then OK - there's a chance. But as we all know these type people are few and far between. Heck, if you're this guy/gal contact me and I'll hire ya - and give ya a lot more support than the ABA ever has!

There is a lot going on at the ABA that is a masterpiece and a lot going on that is improving all the time. I have tried not to write a "they're doing it all wrong" rant because Elvis hates them and making him or anyone else angry on here is not my intent. And frankly I don't believe that they're "doing it all wrong". If I ever get my hands on BMX bicycle racing in this country I will not change the National setup one iota - it's fine as it is. There are more than enough kiddos in this country to support even greater expansion. If this local scene stuff ever got sorted out it'd take a week to run a National- or more than one track! The office staff is a good size and the road crew seems to be as lean as it can be. But the local scenes business model will be unrecognizable within a year of the purchase from what it is today. We need the same dynamic, all inclusive model locally that we now have governing the national model. The one in place now is working - kinda.

Since every time this subject comes up we have such a great response I know that there are many of ya out there who think we can do better. Can't we fill up our gates locally? Can't we expect (demand) a comprehensive program to support our local tracks like the nationals are supported? Can't we expect professional and monetary support if we are to function as a farm system for the cash cow national system? We are not "out of line" to expect this.

We can do better than " kinda".

All the Best
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jul 15 2012, 08:53 AM) *
As a resource, numbers are beneficial in determining if a track would be worth racing at (time and travel expense). Numbers are the only true way to determine if a program is successful and growing, stagnat, or declining. It seems that the membership as a whole, wants to know the numbers.

Without "new" riders (truely new and those returning from years past) the sport will die a slow death. As fewer riders race on a local level, there will be fewer riders who will want to race on a local level (beginning with the Experts as stated much earlier in this thread). Fewer riders, smaller moto counts, and the current challenge of riders having to race out of class only impedes entry of new riders into the sport. Over time, attrition will deplete the membership.

Navel gazing? Yes, I have a self interest in the sport of BMX racing but do not practice yoga.

Elvis, it is clear how you have accomplished so much with so many posts. Do you have a job or live with your mom?

J, you're right. The numbers, if they can be verified, are all important.

I agree with you that they will not paint a pretty picture where the local tracks are concerned.

There simply aren't enough participants locally to "run the machine", if you will. Even the best TO, and there are many, can't manufacture riders from thin air to fill gates 5,6,7 and 8.

I hope at some point in the future we can all have non emotional discussions about what I see as one of the few problems, but a potentially fatal one, left to be addressed in BMX racing.

Thanks!
Elvis
QUOTE
Elvis, it is clear how you have accomplished so much with so many posts. Do you have a job or live with your mom?


Hehe; I'll grant you, the sport needs more upset people Internets-ranting doom screeds, but anyhoo....

Logical fallacy: ad hominem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/adhomterm.htm

Maybe the sanction should "do something about" logical fallacies used to "prove" arguments.
JAF2
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jul 15 2012, 10:59 AM) *
J, you're right. The numbers, if they can be verified, are all important.

I agree with you that they will not paint a pretty picture where the local tracks are concerned.

There simply aren't enough participants locally to "run the machine", if you will. Even the best TO, and there are many, can't manufacture riders from thin air to fill gates 5,6,7 and 8.

I hope at some point in the future we can all have non emotional discussions about what I see as one of the few problems, but a potentially fatal one, left to be addressed in BMX racing.

Thanks!

I initially wrote this post to see if the idea of creating additional value to local racing would increase rider/moto counts. I tried to draw on my 34 years of racing experience as well as the unique opportunity I have had to visit multiple tracks on a monthly basis. And although I knew that everyone would not exactly agree with my observations and may have a different or perhaps even a better solution, I was very surprised at those who deny a problem exists.

I traveled to Southern California this week and my experience was typical to what I have been seeing at most tracks I visit.
Monday, July 16th
Bellflower - only 9 motos, raced with a 19 and 30 year old in cruiser (I am 47). Monday's are cruiser night with a reduce race fee. Great TO, great vibe, nice track, local pros practicing, track used for testing bikes/products (check the latest issue of BMXPlus, YESS prototype frame) but still weak rider/moto count.
Tuesday, July 17th
Apple Valley - only 6 motos. Cruiser night with a reduced race fee of only $5! No one to race, not a single cruiser, other than myself signed up. Nice downhill track in a very beautiful park in the desert. Scary fast downhill first straight, cool TO, home of Supercross BMX, but in the middle of nowhere. Sister track, Crossroads BMX (about 10 miles away in Lucerne Valley) very infrequently runs races due to low rider counts. Two tracks within 20 minutes apart and no riders! I drive an hour and a half for my local racing at PTCBMX. If I would have known that I would not have anyone to race, I might not have made the 1.5 hour drive from Orange County. On the positive note, I did visit Bill Ryan and check out the Supercross HQ and their track. Supercross is a supporter of our Team.
Wednesday, July 18th
"World Famous Orange Y" - 14 motos. Nice mixed age cruiser classes. Great track with great announcing. Good location and easy to get to.

Does a problem exist, or am I visiting the wrong tracks?
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jul 20 2012, 01:57 PM) *
I initially wrote this post to see if the idea of creating additional value to local racing would increase rider/moto counts. I tried to draw on my 34 years of racing experience as well as the unique opportunity I have had to visit multiple tracks on a monthly basis. And although I knew that everyone would not exactly agree with my observations and may have a different or perhaps even a better solution, I was very surprised at those who deny a problem exists.

I traveled to Southern California this week and my experience was typical to what I have been seeing at most tracks I visit.
Monday, July 16th
Bellflower - only 9 motos, raced with a 19 and 30 year old in cruiser (I am 47). Monday's are cruiser night with a reduce race fee. Great TO, great vibe, nice track, local pros practicing, track used for testing bikes/products (check the latest issue of BMXPlus, YESS prototype frame) but still weak rider/moto count.
Tuesday, July 17th
Apple Valley - only 6 motos. Cruiser night with a reduced race fee of only $5! No one to race, not a single cruiser, other than myself signed up. Nice downhill track in a very beautiful park in the desert. Scary fast downhill first straight, cool TO, home of Supercross BMX, but in the middle of nowhere. Sister track, Crossroads BMX (about 10 miles away in Lucerne Valley) very infrequently runs races due to low rider counts. Two tracks within 20 minutes apart and no riders! I drive an hour and a half for my local racing at PTCBMX. If I would have known that I would not have anyone to race, I might not have made the 1.5 hour drive from Orange County. On the positive note, I did visit Bill Ryan and check out the Supercross HQ and their track. Supercross is a supporter of our Team.
Wednesday, July 18th
"World Famous Orange Y" - 14 motos. Nice mixed age cruiser classes. Great track with great announcing. Good location and easy to get to.

Does a problem exist, or am I visiting the wrong tracks?

No J, you have it exactly right.

There are 2 things in the BMX world that I would have been willing to bet money couldn't happen - and yet both have.

1. I didn't believe that we would ever see the day where freestyle and street would be bigger than BMX racing - and yet we have.

2. I didn't think that even rank mismanagement could damage BMX racing in Southern California to the point that it is today - and yet it has.

J, a problem DOES exist - many people know it and more are learning it everyday.

No amount of semi - professional spinning will alter the facts.

Thanks!
RCain


QUOTE
1. I didn't believe that we would ever see the day where freestyle and street would be bigger than BMX racing - and yet we have.

When did you establish that opinion? 30 years or so ago, before freestyle got bigger than racing, or more recently?


QUOTE
2. I didn't think that even rank mismanagement could damage BMX racing in Southern California to the point that it is today - and yet it has.


Please explain to us how So. Cal's local race attendance issues were caused by "Rank mismanagement.)
tgordon
I agree with you J. I think the local tracks need more support by the best of the best as well as the parents and local only riders. I think that without local races the tracks would not be maintained regularly and national only racers wouldn't have much of a track to practice on. I know a lot of the guys at my local track that come to practice and leave before the race would probably race more locals if they had someone to race. We don't have a large number that practice and leave. The older expert classes are pretty small and are usually combined with the intermediate class.
JAF2
Thursday, July 26 - PTCBMX Race For Life DBL, 14 motos
Friday, July 27 - Bradley County BMX Race For Life DBL, 14 motos
Saturday, July 28 - Bradley County BMX Triple TN State Qualifier, 26 motos
Sunday, July 29 - Noonday BMX Triple GA State Qualifier, 40 motos
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