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Army125r
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jun 11 2012, 12:19 PM) *
As an expert who rarely races locals... I will admit to being part of the problem. However, I do go out to practice. I always pay my $3 dollars, even on race days when I need to leave to be someplace else. As I stated earlier in this thread, we have a very strong BMX scene... despite my efforts to derail it by only practicing!!

It used to be the case that there weren't experts for me to race against. While that is still pretty much the case, I have swtiched back to racing the cruiser class. There are plenty of cruiser riders my age to compete with on any given sunday. However, my job doesn't really allow for me to race every sunday... I do my best to commit an hour or two once or twice a week.

When I practice, I usually bring someone with me. They don't race either... but again, they pay their $3 dollars to practice. They talk it up to everyone they know. At the Music City National, they each brought 2-3 people to come watch the races. Some of these people live less than 10 minutes from the track and had no idea that we had a BMX track. Again.... let me emphasize that we have a very strong program. Even with a strong program, there is room for growth. I have no idea if any of these people will race. BUT, they all got excited about it, and they now know that we have a BMX track that is available to them.

I strongly oppose making our National riders race more locals in order to grow the local scene.

Soccer was brought up here, so I will continue that analogy (though I understand how it is a flawed analogy). I played soccer at the highest level in the US. When I played with the men's junior olympic squad, they did not require that I play recreation league soccer. In fact, playing rec league soccer would have gotten in the way of my training efforts. My local rec league did not go under because I didn't to play at the local level... They recruited new players who were at that level, and then supported them when they exceeded that level. I still went back and gave clinics and worked with the younger players.

I am not angry that our Pro's come out to practice our track and do not race. I am not mad that our experts do not always race. Rather, I am stoked that they come out to the track and work with our younger riders. I am happy to see them spend an hour giving a clinic to new riders (regardless of age).

If you want it to grow. Tell people about it. Bring someone to the track. Don't put more requirements and stipulations on those who are already there.



Ken brings up an example, through his eyes, of the problem with attendance at local races. Based on what I read and his comparisons, I take that Ken feels locals are beneath him.

Here's where I as a business manager, don't see what others like Ken see. If you are able to attend a pre-race practice on the same track that is holding an event that is "beneath" you, why can't you stick around for an additional hour or so and race to further help out the moto counts and the age group that may need an additional rider? Where's the harm? Being a pro or actually making a living at the sport by attending the National events, I can understand that you can't risk getting hurt at a "meaningless" local. But Experts?

I applaud those that want to help out the younger or newer riders like Ken has stated. That in my eyes is giving back to the individual rider for the sport. What I don't see is how this is teaching these newer riders to stay in the sport. Especially if they see or hear that these experts are not participating because it's "beneath" them.

When did this step of "entitlement" first appear?
rkoch68
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 12 2012, 08:43 AM) *
Congrats on your strong local program. It sounds like you guys are covering all the bases. Maybe you can elaborate on your best practices and share with all?

PDepauw won't say this but the best practices at East Moline BMX is PDepauw. You have a guy that LOVES the sport. Will do anything to get a kid on the track. I have only been around PDepauw for a short time and know personally of instances he went above and beyond to get a kid on the track.
Once you are at the track, East Moline BMX has a minor league baseball feel. Wacky ideas and fun is key. The TO has a passion for the sport and it naturally comes through. A nice little parent volunteer base is key as well.
Bmx Prof
Army-To clarify... it is not beneath me, it just doesn't provide me the value or benefits that I need to get better.

I have been in this sport since 1980. I am an active recruiter and I volunteer at the track when work obligations allow. I have raced locals all over this country. I have given clinics, donated bike parts and gear, and even bought licenses for people who where on the fence about racing.

I do not think that I am entitled, rather; I don't support the notion that I should be forced to race at a local level, if that local level doesn't offer my class, or competition. In 2003, I raced probably 100+ races. I regularly drove to NC, OH, GA, SC, and throughout TN to race. That year I added local races in KS, OK, AR, NY, DE, PA, IN. MO, and MI. That is at least 1 local race in 14 states.

75% of those races were against kids half my age or 10-15 years my senior. I can't tell you how many times I would have to beat a 11 year old to make the main, or knock an 8 year old cruiser rider out. There is simply no winning in that scenerio. Option A is to let the younger rider win... which doesn't help the younger rider, and doesn't help you get better. Option B is to race all out (not being pushed to ride hard) and beat the younger rider by a good distance... that also feels all wrong. "YAY!!!! I beat an 8 year old give me my trophy."

So yes, racing out of age group in expert... where I have the opportunity to beat an intermediate (who may or may not be my age) by a full straight, or race a 13-14 year old expert and a 10 year old expert... doesn't seem like it makes the most sense to me. I would rather the track get my money for practice, spend an hour working on gates, then go home.

To me, I want to see where I stand against the best riders in my age group and proficiency. A district plate has little value to me. I have had the number one plate, I don't feel the need to get it again. I race the state championship only to get a few extra laps on the grands track during the ROC. I race against intermediates in our state races. You may think of that as entitlement, but I simply see it as a lack of value.

I love the sport. I tell everyone about it every chance that I get. However, as a business manager you know that there is a cost benefit analysis that we do in all facets of our consumer behaviors. My time and money are better spent elsewhwere in those instances. I get more out of practice laps, than I do racing 10 year olds. Again, this is not a sense of entitlement, but racing against a father who bought a cruiser to be on the track with his son or daughter doesn't benefit me any more than racing that 8 year old.

I support the idea of building up the local scene. However, the idea of making the better riders race a certain number locals just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when they don't have enough riders to make the class. I'd rather pay $100 (the cost of 10 local races) and stay home.

I think you need to create more incentives at the local level for riders. Why not build up the state or regional scene by taking novices and intermediates out of the nationals. Make the National races age specific. If a novice or intermediate wants to see where they stand against the best, they can try their hand at a national. My guess is, many won't because the idea of being the best at the lowest proficiency is far more attractive than being at the tail end of the highest proficiency. NoBody Loses mentality at its finest.



Elvis
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jun 12 2012, 03:12 PM) *
Army-To clarify... it is not beneath me, it just doesn't provide me the value or benefits that I need to get better.

I have been in this sport since 1980. ...snip


I don't think anybody who's met you would think your motives were less than pure.
JAF2
QUOTE (rkoch68 @ Jun 12 2012, 01:55 PM) *
PDepauw won't say this but the best practices at East Moline BMX is PDepauw. You have a guy that LOVES the sport. Will do anything to get a kid on the track. I have only been around PDepauw for a short time and know personally of instances he went above and beyond to get a kid on the track.
Once you are at the track, East Moline BMX has a minor league baseball feel. Wacky ideas and fun is key. The TO has a passion for the sport and it naturally comes through. A nice little parent volunteer base is key as well.

It usually boils down to a person or the people who run an organization. People make the difference.
JAF2
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jun 12 2012, 02:12 PM) *
Army-To clarify... it is not beneath me, it just doesn't provide me the value or benefits that I need to get better.

I have been in this sport since 1980. I am an active recruiter and I volunteer at the track when work obligations allow. I have raced locals all over this country. I have given clinics, donated bike parts and gear, and even bought licenses for people who where on the fence about racing.

I do not think that I am entitled, rather; I don't support the notion that I should be forced to race at a local level, if that local level doesn't offer my class, or competition. In 2003, I raced probably 100+ races. I regularly drove to NC, OH, GA, SC, and throughout TN to race. That year I added local races in KS, OK, AR, NY, DE, PA, IN. MO, and MI. That is at least 1 local race in 14 states.

75% of those races were against kids half my age or 10-15 years my senior. I can't tell you how many times I would have to beat a 11 year old to make the main, or knock an 8 year old cruiser rider out. There is simply no winning in that scenerio. Option A is to let the younger rider win... which doesn't help the younger rider, and doesn't help you get better. Option B is to race all out (not being pushed to ride hard) and beat the younger rider by a good distance... that also feels all wrong. "YAY!!!! I beat an 8 year old give me my trophy."

So yes, racing out of age group in expert... where I have the opportunity to beat an intermediate (who may or may not be my age) by a full straight, or race a 13-14 year old expert and a 10 year old expert... doesn't seem like it makes the most sense to me. I would rather the track get my money for practice, spend an hour working on gates, then go home.

To me, I want to see where I stand against the best riders in my age group and proficiency. A district plate has little value to me. I have had the number one plate, I don't feel the need to get it again. I race the state championship only to get a few extra laps on the grands track during the ROC. I race against intermediates in our state races. You may think of that as entitlement, but I simply see it as a lack of value.

I love the sport. I tell everyone about it every chance that I get. However, as a business manager you know that there is a cost benefit analysis that we do in all facets of our consumer behaviors. My time and money are better spent elsewhwere in those instances. I get more out of practice laps, than I do racing 10 year olds. Again, this is not a sense of entitlement, but racing against a father who bought a cruiser to be on the track with his son or daughter doesn't benefit me any more than racing that 8 year old.

I support the idea of building up the local scene. However, the idea of making the better riders race a certain number locals just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when they don't have enough riders to make the class. I'd rather pay $100 (the cost of 10 local races) and stay home.

I think you need to create more incentives at the local level for riders. Why not build up the state or regional scene by taking novices and intermediates out of the nationals. Make the National races age specific. If a novice or intermediate wants to see where they stand against the best, they can try their hand at a national. My guess is, many won't because the idea of being the best at the lowest proficiency is far more attractive than being at the tail end of the highest proficiency. NoBody Loses mentality at its finest.

You guys are rocking this thread - I love the passion.
Army125r
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jun 12 2012, 04:12 PM) *
Army-To clarify... it is not beneath me, it just doesn't provide me the value or benefits that I need to get better.

I have been in this sport since 1980. I am an active recruiter and I volunteer at the track when work obligations allow. I have raced locals all over this country. I have given clinics, donated bike parts and gear, and even bought licenses for people who where on the fence about racing.

I do not think that I am entitled, rather; I don't support the notion that I should be forced to race at a local level, if that local level doesn't offer my class, or competition. In 2003, I raced probably 100+ races. I regularly drove to NC, OH, GA, SC, and throughout TN to race. That year I added local races in KS, OK, AR, NY, DE, PA, IN. MO, and MI. That is at least 1 local race in 14 states.

75% of those races were against kids half my age or 10-15 years my senior. I can't tell you how many times I would have to beat a 11 year old to make the main, or knock an 8 year old cruiser rider out. There is simply no winning in that scenerio. Option A is to let the younger rider win... which doesn't help the younger rider, and doesn't help you get better. Option B is to race all out (not being pushed to ride hard) and beat the younger rider by a good distance... that also feels all wrong. "YAY!!!! I beat an 8 year old give me my trophy."

So yes, racing out of age group in expert... where I have the opportunity to beat an intermediate (who may or may not be my age) by a full straight, or race a 13-14 year old expert and a 10 year old expert... doesn't seem like it makes the most sense to me. I would rather the track get my money for practice, spend an hour working on gates, then go home.

To me, I want to see where I stand against the best riders in my age group and proficiency. A district plate has little value to me. I have had the number one plate, I don't feel the need to get it again. I race the state championship only to get a few extra laps on the grands track during the ROC. I race against intermediates in our state races. You may think of that as entitlement, but I simply see it as a lack of value.

I love the sport. I tell everyone about it every chance that I get. However, as a business manager you know that there is a cost benefit analysis that we do in all facets of our consumer behaviors. My time and money are better spent elsewhwere in those instances. I get more out of practice laps, than I do racing 10 year olds. Again, this is not a sense of entitlement, but racing against a father who bought a cruiser to be on the track with his son or daughter doesn't benefit me any more than racing that 8 year old.

I support the idea of building up the local scene. However, the idea of making the better riders race a certain number locals just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when they don't have enough riders to make the class. I'd rather pay $100 (the cost of 10 local races) and stay home.

I think you need to create more incentives at the local level for riders. Why not build up the state or regional scene by taking novices and intermediates out of the nationals. Make the National races age specific. If a novice or intermediate wants to see where they stand against the best, they can try their hand at a national. My guess is, many won't because the idea of being the best at the lowest proficiency is far more attractive than being at the tail end of the highest proficiency. NoBody Loses mentality at its finest.


Ken, I applaud your level of commitment at the national level, donating and working at your track to help out. Let it be known that I wasn't judging your Bmx status or history but rather what came across in your original post.

I'm not going to toot my own horn but I too have donated, given away, volunteered, paid for riders and attended the nbl national level since 2004. I am an older expert and cruiser rider and have always raced my share of locals each year. I guess I want to just ride / race because it's fun to me. I've raced against young kids and older adults and never felt bored with doing it. It's fun. It's challenging for all ages.

I will agree that you get more out of practice at times. But what is the harm in having fun racing against whoever is available?
That's where I'm torn with some of the responses. I continue to have fun at all levels and wonder if others see racing as "not fun" on the local level? Maybe that's the '80's racer mentality in me.
Elvis
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 12 2012, 04:52 PM) *
It usually boils down to a person or the people who run an organization. People make the difference.


Absolutely. (Where were you on Page one?)

But yeah, up and down the line: BMX is one of those things you think are about bicycles, but it's really about the people who power the sport (and, yes, the bicycles).
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Elvis @ Jun 12 2012, 08:04 PM) *
Absolutely. (Where were you on Page one?)

But yeah, up and down the line: BMX is one of those things you think are about bicycles, but it's really about the people who power the sport (and, yes, the bicycles).

As long as you drink the kool aid and don't ever question the sanction in any way.

For Heaven sakes man, do you never read what you've previously written before you write again?

The local scenes aren't growing, BMX racing has never been sustainable ( it's in fact been a roller coaster ride that would make a paratrooper puke since it's inception) and there is a good reason why, by your own count, that there are over 900 threads on growing local tracks.

The reason is this - THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH GROWTH AT THE LOCAL LEVELS!!!!!

That's what the original poster was trying to address ON PAGE ONE. And why there has been over 100 responses!

There's a problem with growth at the local levels and it's this - THERE ISN'T ANY!!!!!! At least not by any REAL business standards.

It is practically impossible to make up classes by proper age group anywhere in the US other than a few special venues and you don't think there's a problem?

One more time :

!. The SX/ O scene is doing fine or as good as it's gonna do. That's out of the ABA's hands for now although they may manage to gain control of it and over 15 or twenty years cut it's gross in half. Sound familiar for all you old timers out there?

2. The Nationals are jam up and jelly tight every two weeks.

3. A problem is at the local level where there aren't enough people to make up classes - in fact its not a problem - it's THE problem.

And no amount of spin by anyone is gonna change that fact.

God help me, I give up. How can we ever fix this problem if there are people actually in power( whatever that means where results aren't important) who don't know there's a problem? And in fact swear and be d...ned there's not!!!

I know what we'd do starting tomorrow in the real world, but in BMX/ABA world????

Who knows? More of the same things that got us to this point I expect.

And don't you ever forget - it's your fault at the local level that you can't make up motos.

The ABA? They just collect your money.

And yes JAF2, its all about the people who own and run organizations - whether it's a big firm or something as small as the ABA. But Elvis misses the point here completely. He thinks that my point is that they aren't doing anything or working hard enough. That's not it at all.

Where the local scenes are concerned, judging by their performance over a very long period, I just don't think they're any good at it.

All the Best
woodybmx86
local counts are a problem, and have been. Yes they have been going down for years, in both sanctions. and yes, both sanctions continued to do things as is... and yes teh trying to please everybody in its last 6 years did in the NBL. on the national scene. which is what keeps a sanction afloat. NBL didnt fail in its locals, it failed in its national scene for a variety of reasons. that being said, they did try something new at the end, and it didnt work at all.... wouldnt this make the existing only choice of sanction somewhat gunshy? Especially when it comes to its money maker - the nationals.
But as far as growth... nope. the as is is not working, and expecially in the new era of entertainment. a company that doesnt change will not grow. So... since the numbers are dwindling, then its been that local volunteers and TOs are just getting worse and worse at building local programs? come on.
all that being said, I have no clue how to make growth. I do think getting the National chasing riders back into their local scene would not only increase moto counts, but it would be beneficial for the newbs... everybody likes to see good riders. give em something to look at. But will they short of requirements? not usually. At least in my years of experience. Pro ams are a very good way to go, though.
and guys, please quit harping on the tracks... Freestyle is hUGE. kids buy bikes and go to parks all over and ride street. a bmx track is in no way, shpae or form as intimidating as a skatepark, or what the kids do on them. blaming tracks in NOT it.
Deanna
QUOTE (woodybmx86 @ Jun 12 2012, 11:51 PM) *
local counts are a problem, and have been. Yes they have been going down for years, in both sanctions. and yes, both sanctions continued to do things as is... and yes teh trying to please everybody in its last 6 years did in the NBL. on the national scene. which is what keeps a sanction afloat. NBL didnt fail in its locals, it failed in its national scene for a variety of reasons. that being said, they did try something new at the end, and it didnt work at all.... wouldnt this make the existing only choice of sanction somewhat gunshy? Especially when it comes to its money maker - the nationals.
But as far as growth... nope. the as is is not working, and expecially in the new era of entertainment. a company that doesnt change will not grow. So... since the numbers are dwindling, then its been that local volunteers and TOs are just getting worse and worse at building local programs? come on.
all that being said, I have no clue how to make growth. I do think getting the National chasing riders back into their local scene would not only increase moto counts, but it would be beneficial for the newbs... everybody likes to see good riders. give em something to look at. But will they short of requirements? not usually. At least in my years of experience. Pro ams are a very good way to go, though.
and guys, please quit harping on the tracks... Freestyle is hUGE. kids buy bikes and go to parks all over and ride street. a bmx track is in no way, shpae or form as intimidating as a skatepark, or what the kids do on them. blaming tracks in NOT it.


The ABA spread them out. They always have. I got really frustrated w/ the nbl's attitude of doing a zillion regionals & nationals in the Midwest during the spring/summer on our very short riding period. I think we need to give I time now that the NBL sanction is gone & not dumping on the east & Midwest.
Thrash
want larger locals?
go out and promote your sport, bring in new riders.
even if it just riding your hawt lil race bike around town. I scored two more riders just going to the grocery store today. sometimes you just have to let people know that this sport has a local scene.
its a community effort and its an individual effort.
bringing back the carpool with 20 bikes stacks all over the vehicle
MFbmxdad
I personally know a few dads that have younger NAG kids and recognize a few more from the area as they are really good.

All of these kids race locals when they have the time. They definitely race State races and the odd double pointer. Having these kids race more locals is not going to increase moto counts. Period.

The sanction needs to have a team/functional group/business line that is only focused on local growth with reasonable goals as Bond Trader pointed out. I think a West/Midwest/East Coast rep with a Manger of Local Racing Development. At most, this would be 300K in salaries for the 4 employees. Maybe this would be too much of a hit to the ABA's margins. Thoughts.

PS - I think Cash Opens, 1x/2x per month would bring back the older experts. There is a huge drop-off in classes after 12x.
Elvis
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 12 2012, 10:15 PM) *
As long as you drink the kool aid and don't ever question the sanction in any way.

For Heaven sakes man, do you never read what you've previously written before you write again?

The local scenes aren't growing, BMX racing has never been sustainable ( it's in fact been a roller coaster ride that would make a paratrooper puke since it's inception) and there is a good reason why, by your own count, that there are over 900 threads on growing local tracks.

The reason is this - THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH GROWTH AT THE LOCAL LEVELS!!!!!

That's what the original poster was trying to address ON PAGE ONE. And why there has been over 100 responses!

There's a problem with growth at the local levels and it's this - THERE ISN'T ANY!!!!!! At least not by any REAL business standards.

It is practically impossible to make up classes by proper age group anywhere in the US other than a few special venues and you don't think there's a problem?

One more time :

!. The SX/ O scene is doing fine or as good as it's gonna do. That's out of the ABA's hands for now although they may manage to gain control of it and over 15 or twenty years cut it's gross in half. Sound familiar for all you old timers out there?

2. The Nationals are jam up and jelly tight every two weeks.

3. A problem is at the local level where there aren't enough people to make up classes - in fact its not a problem - it's THE problem.

And no amount of spin by anyone is gonna change that fact.

God help me, I give up. How can we ever fix this problem if there are people actually in power( whatever that means where results aren't important) who don't know there's a problem? And in fact swear and be d...ned there's not!!!

I know what we'd do starting tomorrow in the real world, but in BMX/ABA world????

Who knows? More of the same things that got us to this point I expect.

And don't you ever forget - it's your fault at the local level that you can't make up motos.

The ABA? They just collect your money.

And yes JAF2, its all about the people who own and run organizations - whether it's a big firm or something as small as the ABA. But Elvis misses the point here completely. He thinks that my point is that they aren't doing anything or working hard enough. That's not it at all.

Where the local scenes are concerned, judging by their performance over a very long period, I just don't think they're any good at it.

All the Best


Poppycock; not only is the local scene growing, but proof of it exists in this very thread -- hard number proof, take-it-to-the-bank proof.

Drinking what's offered? Hey man, I go to the track and report what I see. Mother sanction? I've seen its engagement with local tracks grow and strengthen over the last years and the result of that is the afore-mentioned growth. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm out here in the sticks and seeing growth. The numbers for you city boys speak for themselves.

And it's hard numbers bud, real data. BMX is growing. Heck, you can get a decent race bike at a big-box retailer for cheap. It's in the Olympics. Public awareness is growing. I don't even have to explain to people (under 60) what it means to race BMX any more.

When I first started I always had to race kids. Nowdays I race Dads. Growth.

Let me put it back on you: Glass half full. Your paradigm is a box and you're trapped in it. Get out more.

(We're still buds and all, but still....)
AshHill
QUOTE (Elvis @ Jun 13 2012, 09:10 AM) *
Poppycock; not only is the local scene growing, but proof of it exists in this very thread -- hard number proof, take-it-to-the-bank proof.

Drinking what's offered? Hey man, I go to the track and report what I see. Mother sanction? I've seen its engagement with local tracks grow and strengthen over the last years and the result of that is the afore-mentioned growth. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm out here in the sticks and seeing growth. The numbers for you city boys speak for themselves.

And it's hard numbers bud, real data. BMX is growing. Heck, you can get a decent race bike at a big-box retailer for cheap. It's in the Olympics. Public awareness is growing. I don't even have to explain to people (under 60) what it means to race BMX any more.

When I first started I always had to race kids. Nowdays I race Dads. Growth.

Let me put it back on you: Glass half full. Your paradigm is a box and you're trapped in it. Get out more.

(We're still buds and all, but still....)



Do you realize "mother sanction" is not going to get popular. Especially when usabmx is a lot easier and not so gay
AshHill
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 12 2012, 11:15 PM) *
As long as you drink the kool aid and don't ever question the sanction in any way.

For Heaven sakes man, do you never read what you've previously written before you write again?

The local scenes aren't growing, BMX racing has never been sustainable ( it's in fact been a roller coaster ride that would make a paratrooper puke since it's inception) and there is a good reason why, by your own count, that there are over 900 threads on growing local tracks.

The reason is this - THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH GROWTH AT THE LOCAL LEVELS!!!!!

That's what the original poster was trying to address ON PAGE ONE. And why there has been over 100 responses!

There's a problem with growth at the local levels and it's this - THERE ISN'T ANY!!!!!! At least not by any REAL business standards.

It is practically impossible to make up classes by proper age group anywhere in the US other than a few special venues and you don't think there's a problem?

One more time :

!. The SX/ O scene is doing fine or as good as it's gonna do. That's out of the ABA's hands for now although they may manage to gain control of it and over 15 or twenty years cut it's gross in half. Sound familiar for all you old timers out there?

2. The Nationals are jam up and jelly tight every two weeks.

3. A problem is at the local level where there aren't enough people to make up classes - in fact its not a problem - it's THE problem.

And no amount of spin by anyone is gonna change that fact.

God help me, I give up. How can we ever fix this problem if there are people actually in power( whatever that means where results aren't important) who don't know there's a problem? And in fact swear and be d...ned there's not!!!

I know what we'd do starting tomorrow in the real world, but in BMX/ABA world????

Who knows? More of the same things that got us to this point I expect.

And don't you ever forget - it's your fault at the local level that you can't make up motos.

The ABA? They just collect your money.

And yes JAF2, its all about the people who own and run organizations - whether it's a big firm or something as small as the ABA. But Elvis misses the point here completely. He thinks that my point is that they aren't doing anything or working hard enough. That's not it at all.

Where the local scenes are concerned, judging by their performance over a very long period, I just don't think they're any good at it.

All the Best



Where's the like button??!!
AshHill
QUOTE (Elvis @ Jun 11 2012, 09:49 AM) *
And again, all due respect, but "the sanction needs to do something about it" is a false economy. A staff that size and expect them to be everywhere at once (because, again, growth is via new members, not squeezing existing) is really unfair, if not impractical. Growth comes from guys like us doing stuff.


Do you hear yourself? Your last words are exactly what we are asking... Guys like us.. I can probably bet that a good portion of the posters are riders who have been or are on the national level... You get new membership by showing those newbies something different and "cool"
Which is what?? Those amazingly smooth, skilled and fast riders...
You sure are on here a lot for someone who thinks 75% of the posters are completely wrong.

AshHill
QUOTE (Elvis @ Jun 13 2012, 09:10 AM) *
Poppycock; not only is the local scene growing, but proof of it exists in this very thread -- hard number proof, take-it-to-the-bank proof.

Drinking what's offered? Hey man, I go to the track and report what I see. Mother sanction? I've seen its engagement with local tracks grow and strengthen over the last years and the result of that is the afore-mentioned growth. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm out here in the sticks and seeing growth. The numbers for you city boys speak for themselves.

And it's hard numbers bud, real data. BMX is growing. Heck, you can get a decent race bike at a big-box retailer for cheap. It's in the Olympics. Public awareness is growing. I don't even have to explain to people (under 60) what it means to race BMX any more.

When I first started I always had to race kids. Nowdays I race Dads. Growth.

Let me put it back on you: Glass half full. Your paradigm is a box and you're trapped in it. Get out more.

(We're still buds and all, but still....)



Didn't realize 22,000 registered riders meant growth..
A 40+% decrease is the complete opposite my friend.
Nationals use to be 300-500 motos. Not so much anymore.
SX is growing.. Not usabmx. Tracks are closing every year.
The ABA bought the NBL... What does that mean to you?
Bikemonkeys
Is the lack of "National" Experts at your local track, because they don't come out yet practice, or because the quit? If the Average stay in BMX is 2.5 years and it takes about that in some parts of the country to become an Expert, it would seem that there really aren't too many "National" Experts.
Bikemonkeys
QUOTE (AshHill @ Jun 13 2012, 09:08 AM) *
Didn't realize 22,000 registered riders meant growth..
A 40+% decrease is the complete opposite my friend.
Nationals use to be 300-500 motos. Not so much anymore.
SX is growing.. Not usabmx. Tracks are closing every year.
The ABA bought the NBL... What does that mean to you?


How do you figure SX is growing? They built a 2nd track 100 feet from the 1st.

Elvis
Glass half full.

("Mother Sanction")
snickadams
I have a horse in this race and have a lot of opinions; however, unlike some I am a glass is half full type. There are problems with our sport. People honey badger and moan all the time about lack of this and lack of that as they sit back and rant on keyboards, telephones, cell phones, etc.. Some of these people are the same ones that honey badger and moan that the track isn't smooth enough or that the jumps are too lippy or not lippy enough, but won't pick up a shovel or a rake. Then there are people who are just out working to grow the sport.

I took over a track in August of 2006 that had no riders. We became a top 10 track in 2008 and have been one ever since. This year rider count is up 67% YTD. We work harder every year to grow ridership and use the tools provided to us in the toolbox.

Go to the USA BMX website and check-out the Olympic Day promotion. Of all the tracks, how many are not participating? Why? Because they don't want to do a free race? What if that free race gained them 2 new members, 10 new members, or even more? USA BMX has waived all fees for the day and provided awards. Heck, they even sent me some cool rub on Olympic tattoos for the kids, some Olympic trading cards to give away, and a cool Olympic flag to hoist onto the flag pole. Why aren't all of the tracks participating?

For everyone that reads this, you should be at your track that day helping to promote the sport. There are no nationals that weekend. If you are that guy/gal that never visits the local track, get out there. Show these potential new riders what a national expert looks like. Show them how a national expert glides through a rhythm section. Show them how a factory rider looks with their shiny bike and cool uniform. This is our chance to come together for the good of the sport. How many riders are you taking to your track on Olympic Day?

These threads, to me, always come back to what can I do to grow the sport? I have signed up 15 new people in the last 3 days and created grins from ear to ear for kids who got their first experience on a BMX track. I remember looking up to many of the local experts at my track when I first started racing and I remember when I became that kid that many of the younger riders looked up to. I have watched my kids transition through many of the same fazes and like what the sport has taught them and what they are giving back.

This week, let's relish in the fact that we will name another American athlete to the Olympic Team. Then for the next 5 days, let's collectively come together so that the next week we can each focus on bringing at least one new rider to the track. After all, there are 300 tracks around the United States offering free racing for a day.

If you haven't visited the site, check it out: http://www.usabmx.com/site/bmx_races?serie...p;section_id=64.

RCain
QUOTE (AshHill @ Jun 13 2012, 06:39 AM) *
You sure are on here a lot for someone who thinks 75% of the posters are completely wrong.


I'm thinking 75% is a pretty conservative number.

This thread (And others like it, asking Mother Sanction to fix the declining membership problem.) has been making an annual appearance for at least the past 9 years that I have been a member here. If the masses were correct, BMX would have been dead quite a while ago.
USABMX/ABA is not a babysitting service, they are primarily an insurance provider for local tracks. Asking them to change the way they do business to help local tracks grow is not the answer, it simply won't work! Growth happens at the local level by local people. Now they could hire a guy, put him in charge of "Local growth", but really how much can one guy do to help 360 local tracks other than provide info over the phone to locals to help them succeed. (They already do this.) Its not like he can go spend a month at each track recruiting new riders, and it's not like he can force local T.O.s to do what it takes to grow. That initiative has to come at the local level, or it won't come at all.
It doesn't take a National caliber superstud to impress the noobs, heck, most noobs are impressed by any inter that can jump the doubles. Having someone there that can beat the rest of the class by a straight isn't necessary to get new members. Hard work, by local folks, recruiting one rider at a time is what is going to create growth. Any talk of Mother sanction fixing the problem is just much spinning of the proverbial wheels. But hey, this is the internets... Carry on.
Lol.
Elvis
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 13 2012, 12:19 PM) *
...This thread (And others like it, asking Mother Sanction to fix the declining membership problem.) has been making an annual appearance for at least the past 9 years that I have been a member here. If the masses were correct, BMX would have been dead quite a while ago. ...


Which makes me think: We need to come up with a nick' for these threads, "Chicken Little threads" or something like that.

This glass is so half-empty we'd of died of thirst long ago were it so. I'll admit, don't get the cynicism (and it's step-sister: finger-pointing).

JAF2
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 13 2012, 12:19 PM) *
I'm thinking 75% is a pretty conservative number.

This thread (And others like it, asking Mother Sanction to fix the declining membership problem.) has been making an annual appearance for at least the past 9 years that I have been a member here. If the masses were correct, BMX would have been dead quite a while ago.
USABMX/ABA is not a babysitting service, they are primarily an insurance provider for local tracks. Asking them to change the way they do business to help local tracks grow is not the answer, it simply won't work! Growth happens at the local level by local people. Now they could hire a guy, put him in charge of "Local growth", but really how much can one guy do to help 360 local tracks other than provide info over the phone to locals to help them succeed. (They already do this.) Its not like he can go spend a month at each track recruiting new riders, and it's not like he can force local T.O.s to do what it takes to grow. That initiative has to come at the local level, or it won't come at all.
It doesn't take a National caliber superstud to impress the noobs, heck, most noobs are impressed by any inter that can jump the doubles. Having someone there that can beat the rest of the class by a straight isn't necessary to get new members. Hard work, by local folks, recruiting one rider at a time is what is going to create growth. Any talk of Mother sanction fixing the problem is just much spinning of the proverbial wheels. But hey, this is the internets... Carry on.
Lol.

My experience has been, as stated earlier in this thread, that increasing the value of a local makes for higher rider/moto counts and better racing. Anyone who has raced in FL in the early to mid 2000's can atest to the National level racing at the State Qualifiers and Championship. Locals were an important factor toward a riders state ranking.
Elvis
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 13 2012, 03:36 PM) *
My experience has been, as stated earlier in this thread, that increasing the value of a local makes for higher rider/moto counts and better racing. Anyone who has raced in FL in the early to mid 2000's can atest to the National level racing at the State Qualifiers and Championship. Locals were an important factor toward a riders state ranking.


I don't think anybody's denying more racers make for better track days.

Also, consider the 2000s and the booming economy of those times compared to today (*sigh*). Recreation spending is down overall. Further, and as always with all due respect, the premise of this thread was to being in NAG-competing riders. I maintain it would not make any real difference in moto counts or quality of competition. Again we're talking a very small number of riders by any measure.
thebondtrader55
Run the organization like a business and give the local scenes the same priority as the Nationals.

Stop spinning that the local scene is healthy and growing to long time dedicated riders who haven't been in a properly made local moto in years (decades?). They deserve better.

Put in measurable goals in relation to local growth and have quarterly reviews to see that they are being met. Great systems for tracking are available for free on the net that major corporations paid millions to develop not that long ago.

There is nothing radical about the above and no one should be angry about it.

We can't continue to raise our game in relation to locals this slowly. It's like raising 3000000$ with bake sales 5$ at a time. In the long run it might work but even if it does it is going to be soooooooooooo...... slow! And of course in the long run we're all going to be dead.

I just don't believe that our definition of success for BMX racing should be this low.

Thanks
RCain
QUOTE
Run the organization like a business and give the local scenes the same priority as the Nationals
.

The sanction runs National races, local scenes are run by locals, each has different priorities and goals. The sanction can worry about how the local businesses are run when the sanction starts running local tracks and putting local T.Os. on the payroll. Until then their priorities (as well as the businesses, and their goals) are separate.

QUOTE
Put in measurable goals in relation to local growth

Measurable goals for who? Are you saying that the sanction should mandate that local tracks meet dictated goals?

QUOTE
have quarterly reviews

Again Quarterly reviews of who? Local volunteers?

QUOTE
see that they are being met

Or what? Fire the local volunteer T.Os?

This is the issue that most miss. It's not like there is a long line of MBA's clamoring to open up tracks. quite the opposite, anyone that has any idea of what they are getting into would never open a track. Most tracks are run by people who sacrifice their own time and money with no expectation of getting a return on their investment, operating simply out of passion for the sport. We're damn lucky that there are people like that out there. If we start making demands of those people to meet or exceed some sanction mandated level of growth what do you suppose is going to happen?
Growth?
Not likely.

I agree that the sanction has a vested interest in local growth and should (Does) do all that they can to help locals grow. But they are hand tied in that they can only grow as much as the local operating group is willing to commit to. Somehow forcing growth (Either by forcing NAGs back into the bottom tier or implementing a mandatory recruitment goal.) is not going to work. IMO either or both would do the opposite. Some people would quit rather than capitulate.
There is a vast separation in the way locals run their businesses and the way the Sanction runs its business, in most cases profit is not the primary motive for the local T.O.
There is not much (More than they already do) that the sanction can realistically do to to create growth at the local level.
ABA is not and never will be a huge mega corp., its a small family run company that's doing okay for what it is, lets stop trying to treat it like a Wall street player.
Bikemonkeys
QUOTE
Stop spinning that the local scene is healthy and growing to long time dedicated riders who haven't been in a properly made local moto in years (decades?). They deserve better.


Those riders that have been at it for years and don't have a proper moto, are in an age group that doesn't lend it's self to having a proper moto and USABMX has combined and added classes to help with this. Anyone that can make stay with BMX after 16 is doing it because it's something they really really want to do and they have support at doing it. Car, girls, jobs, school, family..... all play into Older racer not being out. Even Older racers that have the ways and means to race, get schedules that gets in the way.

I could be open 7 nights a week and still not have a night were all the Adults that want to race can make it out at the same time. And that wanting to race part is a big part of that. If they don't want to race, we can't make them. Even when they're at the local track and would make a class it's odd that they'll race.


We can have a 22 moto night and not have but 4 motos of older riders, over the age of 14 and one of the Older cruiser classes will have a 14 year old in it. We had 3 new riders come out on Tuesday, not one of them was over 12. Sustained growth is with kids, not adults.

Elvis
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 14 2012, 09:04 AM) *
Run the organization like a business and give the local scenes the same priority as the Nationals.

Stop spinning that the local scene is healthy and growing to long time dedicated riders who haven't been in a properly made local moto in years (decades?). They deserve better.

Put in measurable goals in relation to local growth and have quarterly reviews to see that they are being met. Great systems for tracking are available for free on the net that major corporations paid millions to develop not that long ago.

There is nothing radical about the above and no one should be angry about it.

We can't continue to raise our game in relation to locals this slowly. It's like raising 3000000$ with bake sales 5$ at a time. In the long run it might work but even if it does it is going to be soooooooooooo...... slow! And of course in the long run we're all going to be dead.

I just don't believe that our definition of success for BMX racing should be this low.

Thanks


This doesn't even make sense man.

But, tell you what, you want to open a track and show the rest of us how it's done: Go. I'm thinking your soapboxing is skipping over any number of realities (per RCain's response).
Bmx Prof
Back to the original question posted.

Think about the total number of USABMX members. USABMX states that it has 70,000 members. The number of NAG chasing riders is maybe 25 in each group... -/+5 riders. Most of the cruiser riders also race class for both men and women. Not all... but most. The orginal question was asking whether or not making NAG riders race a certain amount of locals will help the scene. You are talking about roughly 1000 riders. That is around 1.5% of the rider base as spread across all of USABMX's 375 tracks. If we assumed an even spread of NAG riders across the US that is an increase of 2.66 per track. Of course, there are several tracks, and states for that matter that do not have NAG riders. SO... some tracks may gain an additional 6-7 riders and others will gain none. I don't see how requiring these riders to race a certain number of races, possibly outside of their class, is going to help the local scene grow.
Elvis
By the way: This could all be fixed by Monkey Cannon implementation.

In fact nobody here can tell me they wouldn't spend more time at the track if a Monkey Cannon was in effect.

Mother Sanction needs to do something about it.
RCain
Some time ago I recommended the ABA give away classic muscle cars with mounted monkey cannons to T.Os as an recruiting incentive.
The time is right to rehash that idea.
What say you Mother Sanction?

cruiser247
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 14 2012, 01:34 PM) *
Some time ago I recommended the ABA give away classic muscle cars with mounted monkey cannons to T.Os as an recruiting incentive.
The time is right to rehash that idea.
What say you Mother Sanction?



I don't think tracks could keep up with the demand if we did that!
Bikemonkeys
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 14 2012, 01:34 PM) *
Some time ago I recommended the ABA give away classic muscle cars with mounted monkey cannons to T.Os as an recruiting incentive.
The time is right to rehash that idea.
What say you Mother Sanction?



Wait, I thought we agreed that the sanction would supply TOs with muscle cars?

Brett Middaugh
QUOTE
USABMX states that it has 70,000 members.

QUOTE
360 local tracks


Taking the top and dividing it by the bottom gets me about 194 riders per track...

I'm pretty certain in NJ (a purty densely populated state dontcha know) there's about 200 total riders amongst 3 tracks, so that doesn't jive with the math presented.
so...are there tracks out there with like 3 or 400 riders to them or something?
Wierd.
JAF2
QUOTE (Bmx Prof @ Jun 14 2012, 12:24 PM) *
Back to the original question posted.

Think about the total number of USABMX members. USABMX states that it has 70,000 members. The number of NAG chasing riders is maybe 25 in each group... -/+5 riders. Most of the cruiser riders also race class for both men and women. Not all... but most. The orginal question was asking whether or not making NAG riders race a certain amount of locals will help the scene. You are talking about roughly 1000 riders. That is around 1.5% of the rider base as spread across all of USABMX's 375 tracks. If we assumed an even spread of NAG riders across the US that is an increase of 2.66 per track. Of course, there are several tracks, and states for that matter that do not have NAG riders. SO... some tracks may gain an additional 6-7 riders and others will gain none. I don't see how requiring these riders to race a certain number of races, possibly outside of their class, is going to help the local scene grow.

We can focus on the orginal question as stated in the survey but I thought we were expanding apon it. My real question should have been if we make locals more valuable (important) than a trophy or saver stamps, if they were part of a larger goal, would we see an increase of riders and moto counts?

My experience has been that yes, we would. Not just the rider/moto counts would increase, but the level of racing would as well. As I travel to various tracks, I sometimes have no one to race. Of course I can practice and get some excercise, but I am looking for a shot of adrenaline to go along with it. Maybe I will get smoked or maybe I do the smoking, in either case I got to put a little more on the line than I would for a hot practice lap. Competition is what keeps me insanely addicted to the sport. Without competition the sport loses its thrill.

A logical response will be "see, you have proved my point. That's why NAGs and experts don't race locals". But I say again, if riders who wants to achieve more on an advanced level and are required ("forced" for all you young rebellious types) to race locals, then there would be riders to race against and competition. Rider count and moto count would be greater. People attact people.
Elvis
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 14 2012, 01:34 PM) *
Some time ago I recommended the ABA give away classic muscle cars with mounted monkey cannons to T.Os as an recruiting incentive.
The time is right to rehash that idea.
What say you Mother Sanction?



Mother Sanction needs to do this. If it doesn't, I'm ... doing stuff, but not the stuff I'm doing now.
justafather
Even with a slowing economy, video games, parents who don't support their kids, and so on, the USTA has been able to grow it's membership by over 25% since 2003. Currently the USTA boost 740,000 members. Much of the growth has been credited to the USTA itself for investing $10,000,000 into the sport. That money was spent to fund new tennis parks and to increase the awareness of tennis to kids 12 and under.

€œIn the last ten years, the USTA has spent a good deal of time concentrating on growing the game. We felt strongly that we had to make financial commitments, and dedicate our staff and the sections and the districts and states to all be part of this,€ said Lucy Garvin, USTA Chairman of the Board and President.

The USTA took a specific, coordinated, approach to turning around it's declining membership and did so with great success.

Sorry, but expecting unpaid, untrained, volunteers at 360 tracks to come up with 360 different plans and thinking that's going to produce growth is just plain silly. Then again, expecting USABMX to change something that's apparently working for them is probably even sillier.

Maybe we should just move on from this topic of growth and enjoy riding our bikes instead of trying to solve issue's out of our control.
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 14 2012, 09:43 AM) *
.

The sanction runs National races, local scenes are run by locals, each has different priorities and goals. The sanction can worry about how the local businesses are run when the sanction starts running local tracks and putting local T.Os. on the payroll. Until then their priorities (as well as the businesses, and their goals) are separate.


Measurable goals for who? Are you saying that the sanction should mandate that local tracks meet dictated goals?


Again Quarterly reviews of who? Local volunteers?


Or what? Fire the local volunteer T.Os?

This is the issue that most miss. It's not like there is a long line of MBA's clamoring to open up tracks. quite the opposite, anyone that has any idea of what they are getting into would never open a track. Most tracks are run by people who sacrifice their own time and money with no expectation of getting a return on their investment, operating simply out of passion for the sport. We're damn lucky that there are people like that out there. If we start making demands of those people to meet or exceed some sanction mandated level of growth what do you suppose is going to happen?
Growth?
Not likely.

I agree that the sanction has a vested interest in local growth and should (Does) do all that they can to help locals grow. But they are hand tied in that they can only grow as much as the local operating group is willing to commit to. Somehow forcing growth (Either by forcing NAGs back into the bottom tier or implementing a mandatory recruitment goal.) is not going to work. IMO either or both would do the opposite. Some people would quit rather than capitulate.
There is a vast separation in the way locals run their businesses and the way the Sanction runs its business, in most cases profit is not the primary motive for the local T.O.
There is not much (More than they already do) that the sanction can realistically do to to create growth at the local level.
ABA is not and never will be a huge mega corp., its a small family run company that's doing okay for what it is, lets stop trying to treat it like a Wall street player.

The priorities of the sanction and the locals should be the same. The model is wrong.

Measurable goals for whoever the sanction hires or promotes to grow the local scenes.

Quarterly reviews for whoever is responsible for this area. I know this doesn't fit in well with the good old boys club but we can hope.

No, not fire the local TO - you don't have that power in this unworkable model. Fire the person who was responsible for meeting the goals if they aren't met. Don't you have goals you have to meet at work? I do and I own the place. If you or anyone else has found a magical place where you are paid for the type of dismal performance that the ABA has shown over the last 15 years call and tell me where it is - I'll move tomorrow. Forget tomorrow, I'll come today!

It's correct that most racks lose money or break even at best. In this model that's on them. But the money comes when the sanction designated person over growth actually grows the membership. Do I think that tracks can make money themselves? Some can but most won't no matter how big they get. But the sanction can make a boatload of money if the locals grow. The only real mystery in this whole question is why the sanction puts so little effort -cancel that- so little effective effort into what I consider the only largely untapped income stream left to them.

If the ABA agrees with you that they are doing all they can to grow the local scenes then they are dead wrong. Now the retort to this is that old saw that the ABA has worked for however many years. The misconception here is that there are only two measurements - working and not working. But that's wrong- there's a third measurement.

It's called "kinda working". That's the story of the ABA - it sorta, kinda works when it isn't in the ditch.

This definition of success is wayyyyyy toooooo low.

Thanks

thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Elvis @ Jun 14 2012, 10:36 AM) *
This doesn't even make sense man.

But, tell you what, you want to open a track and show the rest of us how it's done: Go. I'm thinking your soapboxing is skipping over any number of realities (per RCain's response).

And yet everyone in my employ and circle understands it completely. Weird.

You, and your new booster RCain, totally misunderstand . I have no desire to start a track!!!!

This is the very type of thinking that requires 30 years or so to grow anything 5$ at a time.

I know your expertise isn't finance but can't you see that this is not working? It hasn't worked for a very long time.

More flyers, rummage sales, and cake auctions aren't what's needed. This has all been tried with some success. But it is TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE.

The model must change in a basic way and this should be led by the OWNERS of the sanction. Why is this desire so crazy? I'll tell you what's crazy - the whole notion that local TO's and volunteers should ramrod growth and then send the rewards upstream to the sanction when they, by the very words written here, have done nothing to effect this growth. My business grows by the ideas that I put forth. Why are the grand poobahs at the ABA above this? Growth being driven by the policies instituted by the leaders at the bottom of the chain of command. Exactly the opposite of every successful business model in the United States of America. Weird.

The one thing written in this thread that I am in total agreement with is that the sanction is the defacto insurance company for the tracks. That is correct. But is that really enough? Are you happy with that? Is the fact that motos rarely make fully okay with you? Is the fact that there is no BMX racing product in stores to speak of okay with you? Is the fact that sponsorships are a shadow of what they were 15 years ago okay with you? Is the fact that our Pros pay packages have dwindled to almost nothing okay with you? The poor (nonexistent) growth in our local scenes is the direct cause of all of the above.

And if you're okay with all of the above characteristics of ABA Bicycle racing in the year 2012 my question remains the same.

WHY?????

E, your ideas and expectations of where BMX should be now and where it could grow in the future are all too incredibly small.

Take off those bifocals, man, and try to conjure up some of that rarely used magic known as vision.

All the Best

The Bondtrader
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (Brett Middaugh @ Jun 14 2012, 01:28 PM) *
Taking the top and dividing it by the bottom gets me about 194 riders per track...

I'm pretty certain in NJ (a purty densely populated state dontcha know) there's about 200 total riders amongst 3 tracks, so that doesn't jive with the math presented.
so...are there tracks out there with like 3 or 400 riders to them or something?
Wierd.

You're right Brett - it is very weird.

The numbers just don't add up do they?

Thanks !
Bmx Prof
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 14 2012, 11:59 PM) *
You're right Brett - it is very weird.

The numbers just don't add up do they?

Thanks !


And yet... the question was to focus on requiring the NAG riders or... 5 tracks worth of total riders to race a certain number or races for a plate that they aren't even eligible for if they finish the year in the Top 10 in the nation.

How does that make sense?
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (JAF2 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:58 PM) *
We can focus on the orginal question as stated in the survey but I thought we were expanding apon it. My real question should have been if we make locals more valuable (important) than a trophy or saver stamps, if they were part of a larger goal, would we see an increase of riders and moto counts?

My experience has been that yes, we would. Not just the rider/moto counts would increase, but the level of racing would as well. As I travel to various tracks, I sometimes have no one to race. Of course I can practice and get some excercise, but I am looking for a shot of adrenaline to go along with it. Maybe I will get smoked or maybe I do the smoking, in either case I got to put a little more on the line than I would for a hot practice lap. Competition is what keeps me insanely addicted to the sport. Without competition the sport loses its thrill.

A logical response will be "see, you have proved my point. That's why NAGs and experts don't race locals". But I say again, if riders who wants to achieve more on an advanced level and are required ("forced" for all you young rebellious types) to race locals, then there would be riders to race against and competition. Rider count and moto count would be greater. People attact people.

J, you might as well give up Pal.

These guys position is that everything is OK and so any change is unnecessary.

The point is correct that the number of Nags themselves are too small to make a difference. But the difference would be made in the ancillary good that having them on site would bring. This could be incalculable. Way too many possible paths for good to list here.

J, rest assured that what you describe is what BMX looked like the last time it was healthy and growing. However the saying " if it isn't working stop doing it, if it is working do more of it" is not a popular viewpoint here.

Change is needed but it will have to be forced to ever arrive.

Thanks for your views!
RCain
Mr. Bondtrader, it seems that your only interest is in telling everyone else that they are doing it wrong. You go ahead and keep to that path and I'll stay on mine. This time next year when this thread pops up again we'll compare notes and see which one of us has had more effect on local growth.
All the best.
-R.
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (RCain @ Jun 14 2012, 09:37 PM) *
Mr. Bondtrader, it seems that your only interest is in telling everyone else that they are doing it wrong. You go ahead and keep to that path and I'll stay on mine. This time next year when this thread pops up again we'll compare notes and see which one of us has had more effect on local growth.
All the best.
-R.

No, my main interest is to compel "The Sanction" to adopt a more progressive model than the one currently in place or to sell "The Sanction" so that it can be reorganized in the proper fashion to adequately benefit the paying members. It's a noble calling that I enjoy providing.

I wish you luck in your efforts for future local growth. No matter how slow or how little anything is better than nothing.

There is no doubt that we will all be discussing this again. Contrary to what Elvis believes there are many good people out there who know that this is a serious, long standing problem.

And no amount of spin is going to make this caring and awareness go away.

Till next time,

The Bondtrader.
RCain
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 14 2012, 08:58 PM) *
I wish you luck in your efforts for future local growth. No matter how slow or how little anything is better than nothing.
The Bondtrader.


Our local program is doing just fine thank you. Luck had little to do with it.

Just out of curiosity, you do understand that the sanction doesn't own or run local tracks right? You do understand that the sanction doesn't get a "cut" of local entry fees. (Other than a very small insurance fee.) Increasing local moto counts does not directly effect the sanctions bottom line, those riders need to move to the National level to make that happen.
As a local T.O. I have very little interest in what the sanction does to effect growth, my interest is in providing a place for local kids to enjoy a healthy competitive environment. The vast majority of our kids will never race a national, I'm okay with that. We don't need a "Guy" sitting at a desk in AZ. to help us. Locally, we have put programs into place to assure our own well being and growth. Although admittedly we have reached a point where growth is slowing, and "maintaining" is our primary objective. This is because we have all but maxed out the percentage of locals who are interested in this kind of activity ( Idaho has the highest per capita involvement in bmx among the states.)
If all local t.o.s put forth the effort we have in the past 5 years, this thread (And others like it.) would not be necessary.
JAF2
QUOTE (justafather @ Jun 14 2012, 03:59 PM) *
Even with a slowing economy, video games, parents who don't support their kids, and so on, the USTA has been able to grow it's membership by over 25% since 2003. Currently the USTA boost 740,000 members. Much of the growth has been credited to the USTA itself for investing $10,000,000 into the sport. That money was spent to fund new tennis parks and to increase the awareness of tennis to kids 12 and under.

�€œIn the last ten years, the USTA has spent a good deal of time concentrating on growing the game. We felt strongly that we had to make financial commitments, and dedicate our staff and the sections and the districts and states to all be part of this,�€� said Lucy Garvin, USTA Chairman of the Board and President.

The USTA took a specific, coordinated, approach to turning around it's declining membership and did so with great success.

Sorry, but expecting unpaid, untrained, volunteers at 360 tracks to come up with 360 different plans and thinking that's going to produce growth is just plain silly. Then again, expecting USABMX to change something that's apparently working for them is probably even sillier.

Maybe we should just move on from this topic of growth and enjoy riding our bikes instead of trying to solve issue's out of our control.

Excellent input/comparison as to what an immensely popular sport has done to pump up it's membership. I live in the ATL and tennis is a HUGE youth sport - boring as hell, but still huge plus some of the moms are pretty hot. Not that I am cruising by the tennis courts checking things out, I have two daughters that play.

JAF2
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 14 2012, 06:35 PM) *
J, you might as well give up Pal.

These guys position is that everything is OK and so any change is unnecessary.

The point is correct that the number of Nags themselves are too small to make a difference. But the difference would be made in the ancillary good that having them on site would bring. This could be incalculable. Way too many possible paths for good to list here.

J, rest assured that what you describe is what BMX looked like the last time it was healthy and growing. However the saying " if it isn't working stop doing it, if it is working do more of it" is not a popular viewpoint here.

Change is needed but it will have to be forced to ever arrive.

Thanks for your views!

There are lessons to be learned from ABA history.

circa 1980 "However, with the exception of the issues of entrance fees and the quality of the national tracks, the rank in file racers and families were largely oblivious. They were seeing well run races that met the needs of the consumer. This was reflected by the growth rate and attendance levels at both the local level and at its Nationals"
Elvis
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Jun 14 2012, 06:55 PM) *
And yet everyone in my employ and circle understands it completely. Weird.

You, and your new booster RCain, totally misunderstand . I have no desire to start a track!!!!

This is the very type of thinking that requires 30 years or so to grow anything 5$ at a time.

I know your expertise isn't finance but can't you see that this is not working? It hasn't worked for a very long time.

More flyers, rummage sales, and cake auctions aren't what's needed. This has all been tried with some success. But it is TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE.

The model must change in a basic way and this should be led by the OWNERS of the sanction. Why is this desire so crazy? I'll tell you what's crazy - the whole notion that local TO's and volunteers should ramrod growth and then send the rewards upstream to the sanction when they, by the very words written here, have done nothing to effect this growth. My business grows by the ideas that I put forth. Why are the grand poobahs at the ABA above this? Growth being driven by the policies instituted by the leaders at the bottom of the chain of command. Exactly the opposite of every successful business model in the United States of America. Weird.

The one thing written in this thread that I am in total agreement with is that the sanction is the defacto insurance company for the tracks. That is correct. But is that really enough? Are you happy with that? Is the fact that motos rarely make fully okay with you? Is the fact that there is no BMX racing product in stores to speak of okay with you? Is the fact that sponsorships are a shadow of what they were 15 years ago okay with you? Is the fact that our Pros pay packages have dwindled to almost nothing okay with you? The poor (nonexistent) growth in our local scenes is the direct cause of all of the above.

And if you're okay with all of the above characteristics of ABA Bicycle racing in the year 2012 my question remains the same.

WHY?????

E, your ideas and expectations of where BMX should be now and where it could grow in the future are all too incredibly small.

Take off those bifocals, man, and try to conjure up some of that rarely used magic known as vision.

All the Best

The Bondtrader


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