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bystickel
This is a spin-off from the 'I broke a hip at Oldsmar' thread, which tried to explore whether or not tracks have become too technical for younger/older/lesser riders. That discussion was dividing into 2 camps, A. the injuries are hurting the sport, and B. Grow a bigger set.

NO ONE TRACK IS GOING TO BE PERFECT FOR EVERY RIDER.

I don't care whether you think racing is perfect or doomed. Just tell me:

When a track is built, local or National, who should it be 100% perfect for? How old are they? What class do they run? Who gets happy? Who gets disappointed?

Who is most important to the present and future of BMX?


sxebmx
I don't think its the technicality of the tracks that is hurting people, it's that older dudes don't want to back down and don't realize that they're getting old and more prone to injury when things go wrong. Younger riders who aren't X take the harder tracks slower. Winning and losing isn't necessarily about going the fastest down the first straight but being able to manage whatever track happens to be infront of you, even if it means double tire rolling everything.
tommydone
QUOTE (sxebmx @ Feb 24 2012, 09:51 PM) *
I don't think its the technicality of the tracks that is hurting people, it's that older dudes don't want to back down and don't realize that they're getting old and more prone to injury when things go wrong. Younger riders who aren't X take the harder tracks slower. Winning and losing isn't necessarily about going the fastest down the first straight but being able to manage whatever track happens to be infront of you, even if it means double tire rolling everything.

disagree , but it isnt only the older guys getting hurt. The parents of that 10 year old novice go to their first national and see a parade of guys being shipped of in an ambulance and guess what? that 10 year old novice just got signed up for baseball and soccer. That in itself is going to hurt the sport. I think a balance needs to be found, are you going to please everyone? no way is that ever going to happen but when riders are traveling 10 plus hours for a weekend of racing and pull out of Sundays race because the track is too technical/dangerous,I think there is a problem
gregford
Why doesn't USABMX come up with a classification system for tracks? Rate the track on how technical it is, say A, B, C, D. Then that lets the parent/rider decide if they have the skills to compete that weekend. Yeah, I know, its about $$$. But we are talking about long term and keeping racers in the sport...your thoughts?
bystickel
C'mon, focus. What age and class?
Bikemonkeys
I think as best as can be done having something for everyone and making things racable by all.

Two big rollers are rollers for little kids and Dads new to racing, but can be a big double for the bigger and more expieranced. Table tops give less expieranced something safer to jump. Just placing a roller in front of a mid-sized jump harder for some while keeping some from even trying to jump it.

hardees86
QUOTE (gregford @ Feb 24 2012, 09:31 PM) *
Why doesn't USABMX come up with a classification system for tracks? Rate the track on how technical it is, say A, B, C, D. Then that lets the parent/rider decide if they have the skills to compete that weekend. Yeah, I know, its about $$$. But we are talking about long term and keeping racers in the sport...your thoughts?

i have been saying this for years!!!!! im glad someone else thinks like me..its pure genius...this is our new track for 2012 i think i might need my kx250 for this track lol

http://s380.photobucket.com/albums/oo245/r...13-26-40_61.mp4

http://s380.photobucket.com/albums/oo245/r...13-26-40_61.mp4
cornfed
QUOTE (bystickel @ Feb 24 2012, 10:45 PM) *
C'mon, focus. What age and class?


All of them. All of ages. All classes.

Every rider is a customer of the sport. Tracks should strive for 100% satisfaction.

It is not too far out of reach to accommodate everyone.

ANT DOG 3:16
When CJBMX got rebuilt some people said it was now too hard, well guess what we have strider kids do full laps on it STRIDERS if a kid on a strider can do it with no help, then I see no reason for a classification system. Not trying to be prick, just speaking my mind.


BTW there was a new kid at practice last week, never been on a track, So I rode around with him, and guess what that gave him confidence to ride around by himself the rest of the day. Now I am no pro hell I am no expert (anymore) but I do know what to do to help someone who seems intimidated, give them that boost of confidence and everything else will fall in place.
RacegirlsDad
We've been doing this for 8 years now, and I can honestly say that I have not really noticed the tracks getting any more technical. Oldsmar was different than anything we had seen before, but the girl adapted to it very quickly.

sxebmx
Marketing the national tracks by difficulty makes the most sense in a way, but it will also push the more advanced riders who are fun to watch away from the easier tracks, and the less experienced riders away from the harder tracks... It would just be side stepping everything. This is where clip pedals went and messed everything up. Clips made everyone think that pedaling as fast as they can was the most important part of BMX. The most important part of BMX racing is being able to get around the track(and more importantly, having fun). Not everyone is born to race X. I'm not, and I most likely will never race Expert. Does that make me respect a track like Oldsmar any less? Hell no. Oldsmar has been year over year for the past few years the best track on the circuit. Both AA Pros and parents of little kids alike will complain about it(for vastly different reasons of course,) but it's way better that a watered down and washed out ABA track that hasn't been maintained for 3 years but still gets nationals for some reason.
Jason F.
Strider class, and the old guy flat pedal couch jocky class.
bmxcommentator
Well, tech tracks do the French no harm at all, and they have 20000 registered BMX licence holders in their country! I had a week of French tracks last year and came home a far better rider for it.

Its not how hard a track is, its whether the track can be ridden progressively by the majority of riders. Instead of having 'superhero' sets of doubles that are all or nothing they should be built so they are manualable but with the quicker line being to jump (emphasis on skills) or if you want big all-or-nothing sets build a pro section or an SX track.

If a rider can see how to progress over a jump 'I can manual that and jump it further down the line' then that's a good jump in my book.

Manchester's third straight is steep, deep rhythm. Kids can pump it, it can be manualled fast or jumped 2-2-2. Multiple lines for all. I'm not the smoothest but I'm getting better on it 'progressing'

There's no right answer to the question being asked but I'd sum it up with; 'If the majority can ride it in relative safety then its good enough'
GARG
QUOTE (Jason F. @ Feb 25 2012, 02:07 AM) *
Strider class, and the old guy flat pedal couch jocky class.


I like that class. LOL We should all take our pedals off and raise the seat for a race. That would be epic. laugh.gif
vegasoldtimer
According to Mike's article posted on BMXnews.com, this is what the ABA thinks about how to design tracks:

"John had an impressive list of ways tracks should 'consider their audience' in all aspects of operation, from the design of the tracks to “Keep ‘em Coming Back” tips & tricks. (hint: don’t build your track for the top experts if they represent 2% of your customers. HOORAY!)"
MikeCarruth
Keep in mind the quote from the story was made in the context of local programs who want to attract, and retain new riders. Obviously, the ultimate would be a two-track situation, where there was a beginner and a "regular" track. But we don't have that luxury yet.
bystickel
Listen, I'm not trying to 'trap' you guys by asking you for a specific age and class. Really, I promise I'm not. I'm honestly curious about what AGE and ABILITY the tracks should be optimized for.

When you build obstacles, they're going to work better for some and worse for others, based on the rider's size, speed, ability, etc. That's OK, the World is full of compromises. Average all the things on a track and you'll end up with a Bell Curve of rider satisfaction, so to speak.

(create different lines for different classes and you'll please far more riders, but even those lines will need to be optimized for speed and ability)

Who should be the MOST SATISFIED with a track's design? a 6 expert, 10 novice, 12 intermediate, 15 expert, Pro, 41 Intermediate, or Big Daddy?

Take a stand.
wrxdan2002
QUOTE (ANT DOG 3:16 @ Feb 24 2012, 11:30 PM) *
When CJBMX got rebuilt some people said it was now too hard, well guess what we have strider kids do full laps on it STRIDERS if a kid on a strider can do it with no help, then I see no reason for a classification system. Not trying to be prick, just speaking my mind.


BTW there was a new kid at practice last week, never been on a track, So I rode around with him, and guess what that gave him confidence to ride around by himself the rest of the day. Now I am no pro hell I am no expert (anymore) but I do know what to do to help someone who seems intimidated, give them that boost of confidence and everything else will fall in place.



Ant, I am going to have to disagree with you here. CJBMX's new first straight is the reason you did not see me at the track this year. Thought I am a capable racer (somewhat fast, OK manual skills, and good pump skills) the first straight put me in a weird place, with not being able to build speed to the first turn. I was too fast to roll it all, yet not fast enough (or enough guts) to jump or manual it. I always felt the first straights should be more of a drag race with jumps designed to build speed at get everybody to the first turn safely. Also in my hundreds of races I can not recall myself ever having a major wreak on a first straight. Anyway hope to see you around this year.
Atlmark
Bell curve/test group = riders 25 - 40 intermediate. Most likely will have 2-3 years racing with enough confidence to speed/power to skill ratio to get themselves in over their heads. If this group can barely get around the track without getting broke off at race speed then you've hit the right formula. tongue.gif
MikeCarruth
And realistically, it is not a reliable measure to say "well, the Striders can get around it, therefore it's fine."

Striders are not going fast enough for it to make a difference. To my mind, a "novice" straightway that parallels the rhythm section on most tracks would be the place to start. That is the place where the true skills are most required...where if you don't HAVE rhythm on the bike yet, you are at risk of impact trauma.

We talk about this all the time in our circle of BMX Dads, but anyone remember "Elk Grove" in Illinois in the 80s? An updated version of that is my centerfold for a fun-and-approachable beginner and moms & dads track.

It's almost like we need an "X-Prize" of sorts in track building. The first group who can build a track that doesn't cause the experts to yawn, and the beginners to quake in their flat-shoes would win the prize.

We had an interesting chat around the table yesterday, here at the USA BMX Summit. I asked a few Track Operators "since beginners don't know a "good" track from a "bad" track (in terms of extreme features), if you put a very easy track out there for them to race on...at what point would they be coming to you and saying "it's too easy."

The answer, in all cases, was "once they go to another track and start talking to established riders."

It's peer pressure, and the "scared-to-be-called-a-wimp" factor. So a lot just don't come back.

As to the question of "who should be the most satisfied," the track has to decide what its identity will be. Is it the amped-up place where rank and file riders chocolate their pants riding, coming off with their frame in two pieces, held together by the brake cable...or the place where people come to have fun, learn the skills, and then maybe move to something more challenging once those skills mature.

It's more about the track understanding IT'S identity and mission, because that will drive all the other stuff. It may be cool to to say "we're the most radical track in the Midwest"...but then they add "and I don't know WHY we can't seem to crack 10 motos for a local." It is misplaced priorities and not fully understanding the customer and their motivations.

Will we ever understand that there is no shame in saying "I built my track for appeal to beginners. The experts are welcomed, but they probably won't find much challenge here...and that's perfectly OK. They can go down to (any other track in North America) to jump the pro set."

M
meaker
I have no idea what would ideal age to build a track around. Don't think there is a answer. I do know it is possible to make a track big but still rollable. The reason I didn't go to Oldsmar is I had heard from a few, the track was not made for us old guys. With that said and usabmx limited practice I decided to stay home. Track was awesome for elites and fast young ams...

So, I guess either have a rating of track difficulty or have a track builder that knows how to build big yet rollabe tracks. I see way too many lippy jumps with everything peaky. All you need is a lil extra backside to the lips and a lil extra frontside to the front of the landings.. which is what Oldsmar didn't have...
bmx668
Tracks don't hurt riders...riders hurt riders!






'los
reedhamilton
QUOTE (bystickel @ Feb 25 2012, 09:39 AM) *
Who should be the MOST SATISFIED with a track's design? a 6 expert, 10 novice, 12 intermediate, 15 expert, Pro, 41 Intermediate, or Big Daddy?


10 novice.




standard67
I would say what is your rider base? If you have no Pro's then don't build a pro section but instead build a decision maker one that has jumps and the other that has rollers. this will help everyone skill wise but yet fun for the newbies to test those skills. If you have a older base riders then make both a decision marker with a Pro set. Mostly all kids want to jump so build at least one small jump so they can learn and the progress to the next. Over all your track should be well round for all skills.
Chris C.
QUOTE (bystickel @ Feb 25 2012, 10:39 AM) *
Listen, I'm not trying to 'trap' you guys by asking you for a specific age and class. Really, I promise I'm not. I'm honestly curious about what AGE and ABILITY the tracks should be optimized for.

When you build obstacles, they're going to work better for some and worse for others, based on the rider's size, speed, ability, etc. That's OK, the World is full of compromises. Average all the things on a track and you'll end up with a Bell Curve of rider satisfaction, so to speak.

(create different lines for different classes and you'll please far more riders, but even those lines will need to be optimized for speed and ability)

Who should be the MOST SATISFIED with a track's design? a 6 expert, 10 novice, 12 intermediate, 15 expert, Pro, 41 Intermediate, or Big Daddy?

Take a stand.


With all due respect, you are challenging everyone here to take a stand and I don't think you have made your own yet. What's your opinion from your own options above?



To me, there is no single answer. It all comes down to what the track operator is trying to accomplish. I do believe national tracks should be more challenging than the typical average, so if the people running a track are shooting for nationals, make it geared for experts. If you are a true local track just trying to run a nice program and attract/develop newer riders, back off the technical a bit. Unfortunately, I realize it's nowhere near that simple and there are just as many arguments to counter my opinion.
moorebmx
I would truly like to see a decision maker for 8,9,10 expert class, just one time somewhere. Never seen kids more happy than at Dothan 2 years ago when kids could sky like the older kids during races...
OLDSMARBMX
QUOTE (meaker @ Feb 25 2012, 12:26 PM) *
I have no idea what would ideal age to build a track around. Don't think there is a answer. I do know it is possible to make a track big but still rollable. The reason I didn't go to Oldsmar is I had heard from a few, the track was not made for us old guys. With that said and usabmx limited practice I decided to stay home. Track was awesome for elites and fast young ams...

So, I guess either have a rating of track difficulty or have a track builder that knows how to build big yet rollabe tracks. I see way too many lippy jumps with everything peaky. All you need is a lil extra backside to the lips and a lil extra frontside to the front of the landings.. which is what Oldsmar didn't have...



so you didnt go but you know all? Lips are rolled as our huge 4-9 year olds get around fine
and there are a LOT of them that keep coming back. There is a lot of backside on most everything and the only thing peaky is the rollers on the last straight and i have watched plenty roll, manual and double double thru them just fine of all ages. As someone said up thread dont over ride your skill level and all is good.

John
OLDSMARBMX
QUOTE (Chris C. @ Feb 25 2012, 12:43 PM) *
With all due respect, you are challenging everyone here to take a stand and I don't think you have made your own yet. What's your opinion from your own options above?



To me, there is no single answer. It all comes down to what the track operator is trying to accomplish. I do believe national tracks should be more challenging than the typical average, so if the people running a track are shooting for nationals, make it geared for experts. If you are a true local track just trying to run a nice program and attract/develop newer riders, back off the technical a bit. Unfortunately, I realize it's nowhere near that simple and there are just as many arguments to counter my opinion.



I think you can do both and thats what we have tried to do and it seems to be working, we are all still learning things almost everytime we are open and then put that info to use.

John
bystickel
QUOTE (Chris C. @ Feb 25 2012, 04:43 PM) *
With all due respect, you are challenging everyone here to take a stand and I don't think you have made your own yet. What's your opinion from your own options above?


That's fair. I honestly don't know and was hoping to use this thread to help me form an opinion.

Generally, I think that the tracks should cater to younger, newer riders than they currently do.

And I believe that there's a lot more that can be done to make tracks suit different ages and abilities. This problem requires some out-of-the-box thinking.



thebondtrader55
B, I'd say 12X-13X.

And not some once in a lifetime kid who can jump everything and outrun 90 % of the A Pros in the country. Just a fast, can go to a National and make the main, Expert.

At this age they are a pretty good thumbnail scratch of what is and what can be.

Bless whoever it was at the Summit who addressed the insanity of building a track for 2 % of a tracks ridership. Thats right.

Thanks!
OLDSMARBMX
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Feb 25 2012, 01:40 PM) *
B, I'd say 12X-13X.

And not some once in a lifetime kid who can jump everything and outrun 90 % of the A Pros in the country. Just a fast, can go to a National and make the main, Expert.

At this age they are a pretty good thumbnail scratch of what is and what can be.

Bless whoever it was at the Summit who addressed the insanity of building a track for 2 % of a tracks ridership. Thats right.

Thanks!


I would say the same age range and possible even 11X as there are some in that age range that jump everything at Oldsmar.

John
JConn
Some of you are talking as if Olsdmar would have trouble filling the gate outside of a national and this just isn't the case, not even close. The riders that show up every week range from 4 to 55 years old. Locally, they have more rides show up every week than the other local tracks in the area and there are six of them within approx. 75 miles.

Is Oldsmar hard? Hells yeah! But what happens to these riders who tackle this track every week? They breeze through the other less technical tracks with ease.

thebondtrader55
QUOTE (OLDSMARBMX @ Feb 25 2012, 11:46 AM) *
I would say the same age range and possible even 11X as there are some in that age range that jump everything at Oldsmar.

John

Yea O, I would say thats a pretty good range.

Of course, there will always be exceptions but it would seem to be a good place to start.

Thanks!
bmxcommentator
QUOTE (JConn @ Feb 25 2012, 06:13 PM) *
Some of you are talking as if Olsdmar would have trouble filling the gate outside of a national and this just isn't the case, not even close. The riders that show up every week range from 4 to 55 years old. Locally, they have more rides show up every week than the other local tracks in the area and there are six of them within approx. 75 miles.

Is Oldsmar hard? Hells yeah! But what happens to these riders who tackle this track every week? They breeze through the other less technical tracks with ease.


Case in point again, Manchester England. We have the indoor and outdoor tracks about 10 minutes apart. You go and ride the indoor and tackle its tech straights. Then you go outdoors later in the day and it seems a lot easier in comparison. You ride a lot faster.
tntoz
A good model in my mind for a good fun track would be the Reno National track this year. I went in thinking everything was a little to steep and deep but man after the weekend I felt like they built the thing just for me. So ya that's my (it's all about me) opinion.
bystickel
QUOTE (OLDSMARBMX @ Feb 25 2012, 06:46 PM) *
I would say the same age range and possible even 11X as there are some in that age range that jump everything at Oldsmar.

John


We know that there can be pockets of exceptionally advanced riders, given the right track and the right folks pushing the riders. Not too long ago, someone posted some 6-year-olds (I think) hitting some big doubles. Maybe if I was 6 again... wink.gif

Oldsmar is an advanced track.

Can I ask, where are your new riders coming from?
Is recruitment up or down?
Are they kids of BMXers?
Are they new to cycling?
I'm very interested to know about new riders who cut their teeth on a national-caliber track, one that might seem intimidating not only to the total newbie, but perhaps to the less advanced.
Bill Hayden
Look, if your dog can make it around the track on a uni-cycle, it's all good, anyone can ride it
dnichols
7-12 years of age to me is the best ages to focus on. I also think that if you take that track and put one or two awesome jumps for the more advanced and older riders. You can keep both groups happy. Better yet is to have a separate (pro) section. The problem with most tracks is that they are generic and try to please everyone by making big jumps that any novice can ride over. Then you have little kids that can't make it up them if they go down and the big kids just make the best out of what is given to them. But if you had a section that had those kids talking about how great that jump was, that sets yor track apart from the others.
justafather
This is simple. Kids are the backbone of the sport and tracks should be designed for them. There should be at least 2-3 jumps that most 9-11I's can clear in races. Why do you think many end up just going to the skate park? Kids want to jump! Doh.

FWIW, in my travels around the country the best track I've ever seen that fits the above criteria is Raytown. I think we stayed 3 hours after the Redline Cup was over because the kids were having so much fun. Talk about rider retention!!!

And before you bash me, consider the fact that regardless of which sport you care to talk about 75% of all kids will quit by the time they're 13. So if you're building tracks for 12x's well.....
Bill Hayden
Justafather gets it, why is it so hard, to figure out. They hit the trails and start small and work their way up. Not like racing, where we build "natianal caliber tracks" that the bulk of the kids racing on are not of national caliber.
OLDSMARBMX
QUOTE (bystickel @ Feb 25 2012, 03:04 PM) *
We know that there can be pockets of exceptionally advanced riders, given the right track and the right folks pushing the riders. Not too long ago, someone posted some 6-year-olds (I think) hitting some big doubles. Maybe if I was 6 again... wink.gif

Oldsmar is an advanced track.

Can I ask, where are your new riders coming from?
Is recruitment up or down?
Are they kids of BMXers?
Are they new to cycling?
I'm very interested to know about new riders who cut their teeth on a national-caliber track, one that might seem intimidating not only to the total newbie, but perhaps to the less advanced.


I am not saying it isnt advanced, all i am saying is that they can be advanced tracks and still fun for all the younger and beginner riders.

As far as the pockets go i would venture to say that most of the 10-11 YO and up are jumping 3-4 jumps on our track so it is just not pockets at Oldsmar.

1. Most of them come from our marketing we started doing and the rest stop by as in the last year since we put in the big hill, we have heard it many times at the window " we drive by and see that big hill and what is this?" and 80% of them stick around.
2. not very many are kids of BMXer but a few.
3. There is not really any other types of cycling around us for kids other than a area of trails on the other side of Tampa ( 1 hour away) and Santos in N FL.

We get very few kids that come and are scared of it and even NEW older riders. 99% of the complaints are like what we see on here the older riders that still want to go WFO around the track and do not have the skill set for that ( not talking about anyone or any age group in general, just what we have seen and heard) And the complimants WAY out number the complaints.

Like i said before if the little guys are riding it and having fun and we are increasing our rider numbers, the teenage experts like it, the pros like it and most of the olders riders also like it we will continue going down that road in the future.

John
CWracer
QUOTE (bystickel @ Feb 24 2012, 08:30 PM) *
When a track is built, local or National, who should it be 100% perfect for? How old are they? What class do they run? Who gets happy? Who gets disappointed?


Under 10 and over 40 Inter.

No one needs to be "disappointed". Tracks BITD were long straights with a few obstacles and the racing on all levels was awesome. More stuff on the track doesn't make better racing, it's just more stuff on the track.

RCain
If I had to put one number on it I would have to say 14-15 intermediates are at the level that most local tracks should be suited to. Although that age group is higher than most tracks should be aiming recruiting efforts at, it is very near the middle of the age/ability spectrum.
If you can build a track that the kids who are old enough to go fast but not yet highly skilled can get around without getting regularly bored or beaten up you've done well.
Recruiting brings in Novs, the track plays a very minor role in this. Obviously harder tracks will have a more negative effect than easy ones.
If the Novs struggle and the Experts complain that it's too easy, again you've done well.
A little off topic but related.
I personally cring when new older guys show up at the track, because I know from experiance that theres a real good chance that dude is gonna get broke off. Maybe sooner, maybe later, but eventually, odds are, he's going to take the fall that makes him quit. A few survive to do it for a couple years and a lesser few make it 10 or 15 but thats a great minority.
Its my personal opinion that actively recruiting or even encouraging 30+ yr old riders to start bmx for the first time is somewhat irresponsible.
You can't build a track where a full grown adult novice can't get up too much speed. The grown man that will not push his comfort/skill boundries in a race once the gate drops is rare.
This, plus that, typically adds up to an exit from the sport in the back of an ambulance.
OLDSMARBMX
Look we can agrue this till the end of time but, everyone has there own ideas and some may work in some parts and some in others but at the end of the day do what works best for your area and keep doing it.

I am not singling out any track at all, there are a lot of tracks around us and if one was to look at the numbers of all the tracks and didnt know anything about Oldsmar you would never guess that there are so many people complaining that it is to hard and built for the older riders by the numbers we put up.

One last thing, go help your local track instead of sitting on here and complaining about what others are doing for free for you and your kids to have a place to go have fun.

SX on tonight at 7 EST from ATL, enjoy.


John
justafather
QUOTE (OLDSMARBMX @ Feb 25 2012, 03:25 PM) *
As far as the pockets go i would venture to say that most of the 10-11 YO and up are jumping 3-4 jumps on our track so it is just not pockets at Oldsmar.


John, John, John, that's simply not true. You had a couple(not all) 10 yr old NAG kids jumping at the nats, but that was it. Look, I'm not saying anything bad about your track, it's nice(real nice in fact), but to say most 10-11 yo are jumping 3-4 jumps in races just isn't true except for the most elite kids in that age range. In fact, the 1st step up is an example of what were talking about here. It's too big for most all 7-11 yo kids to jump, but instead launches them into the face of the backside slowing them down and/or getting them squirrelly. It's perfect size for most 12x.s though. I do believe there is a place for tracks like Oldsmar, but it certainly shouldn't be the model for others if making BMX fun for the backbone of the sport is the objective.
Chase266
QUOTE (NMKY @ Feb 25 2012, 06:31 AM) *
Well, tech tracks do the French no harm at all, and they have 20000 registered BMX licence holders in their country! I had a week of French tracks last year and came home a far better rider for it.

Its not how hard a track is, its whether the track can be ridden progressively by the majority of riders. Instead of having 'superhero' sets of doubles that are all or nothing they should be built so they are manualable but with the quicker line being to jump (emphasis on skills) or if you want big all-or-nothing sets build a pro section or an SX track.

If a rider can see how to progress over a jump 'I can manual that and jump it further down the line' then that's a good jump in my book.

Manchester's third straight is steep, deep rhythm. Kids can pump it, it can be manualled fast or jumped 2-2-2. Multiple lines for all. I'm not the smoothest but I'm getting better on it 'progressing'

There's no right answer to the question being asked but I'd sum it up with; 'If the majority can ride it in relative safety then its good enough'








I agree. It's not that tracks are too big or small. Jumps need to be made in a way that is safe. Thirty foot doubles can be safe if they are easy to roll. No one is making you jump it. The problem comes when that big double ( or tiny rhythm ) is on a fast straight and are extremely peaky and deep. Then people who shouldn't be jumping or manualing that particular obstacle yet start trying it because you can't do it any other way. Sure, make it so that it's faster to do it the difficult way but make it possible without. You still need stuff to be challenging or else nothing seperates good riders from bad except cadence. The issue becomes presented when there is only one fast way of doing something and that way is sketchy.
OLDSMARBMX
QUOTE (justafather @ Feb 25 2012, 06:59 PM) *
John, John, John, that's simply not true. You had a couple(not all) 10 yr old NAG kids jumping at the nats, but that was it. Look, I'm not saying anything bad about your track, it's nice(real nice in fact), but to say most 10-11 yo are jumping 3-4 jumps in races just isn't true except for the most elite kids in that age range. In fact, the 1st step up is an example of what were talking about here. It's too big for most all 7-11 yo kids to jump, but instead launches them into the face of the backside slowing them down and/or getting them squirrelly. It's perfect size for most 12x.s though. I do believe there is a place for tracks like Oldsmar, but it certainly shouldn't be the model for others if making BMX fun for the backbone of the sport is the objective.


First of all you are more than welcome to come to our locals and watch before you call me a liar, as local races is what i am speaking of, i did notice i did not say 10-11X just 10-11 YO, i am sorry for that, but that is what i was speaking of and they do jump it. These kids ride it three times a week and they are jumping the first jump as well as two to three others and beg us to stay late every night so they can ride the track more. Again, we are talking locals here and when you have 3, 4 or 5 riders in the moto at a local, versus a rack of 8 like at a national less are going to jump as they are tight together. I agree there were only a few at the Gators in that age group and would believe that them being so tight together is the main reason why. I also agree that when you jump up one year to the 12X a much greater number of them jump in packs than they will by themselves.

John
hardees86
no one has a response on classifying a track???? it just makes sense right??!!!! if you go downhill skiing they classify what run is what "black diamond" intermediate to expert and so on... i have been to at least 20 tracks last year in the midwest all track were awesome in there own way....but none of them gave me any info on the track itself except for pictures or youtube videos but that just does not show the track right..it would be awesome to have some sort of database showing track layout and what skill leval its geared for...this would not be that hard..or am i thinking like an old guy??? lol
justafather
QUOTE (OLDSMARBMX @ Feb 25 2012, 05:28 PM) *
First of all you are more than welcome to come to our locals and watch before you call me a liar, as local races is what i am speaking of, i did notice i did not say 10-11X just 10-11 YO, i am sorry for that, but that is what i was speaking of and they do jump it. These kids ride it three times a week and they are jumping the first jump as well as two to three others and beg us to stay late every night so they can ride the track more. Again, we are talking locals here and when you have 3, 4 or 5 riders in the moto at a local, versus a rack of 8 like at a national less are going to jump as they are tight together. I agree there were only a few at the Gators in that age group and would believe that them being so tight together is the main reason why. I also agree that when you jump up one year to the 12X a much greater number of them jump in packs than they will by themselves.

John


Fair enough.

And I am not/was not calling you a liar nor was I attempting to imply that. I just felt you were, shall we say, using extreme examples to make your point. I will say in the local races I've been to at your track I have not seen 10 yo olds jumping much except for the NAG kid whose name escapes me right now(killer rider). Anyway, you have a great track and my kid has fun there and certainly likes it.
Deanna
If you have one local track in a hour distance or more why would you classify it? Say it's an expert classification wouldn't that scare the newbies away? It's not like a ski hill where you have multiple runs all in one place.....
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