Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: What is the best order for training?
VintageBMX.com > BMX NOW > Training For BMX Racing
Bikemonkeys
If someone (me) can schedule 2 consecutive hours of workout time, what is the best order of working out? Sprints, weights, plyos?

If those 2 hours were broken up by 9 hours, would it be better to do sprints in the morning and weights at night?


TonyHoffman
[quote name='Bikemonkeys' date='Feb 23 2012, 06:10 AM' post='1158782']
If someone (me) can schedule 2 consecutive hours of workout time, what is the best order of working out? Sprints, weights, plyos?

If those 2 hours were broken up by 9 hours, would it be better to do sprints in the morning and weights at night?
[/quote]


It depends on the focus of the sprints...

If your focus is on speed then sprints need to be first.
Jake77

Yeah I would always put sprints at the beginning of your workouts unless you're working on your metabolic conditioning, which in that case it would probably fit in best at the end. My other thought is 2 hours is a long time to workout. If you have the time and you're already in good shape then it's probably ok. If you're out of shape and have to sacrifice sleep to fit in 2 hours a day then I don't know if I would train that much all the time. A little training done often will almost always beat a lot of training done infrequently.

I just started experimenting with a workout program that uses the same lifts for 5 days a week, 8 weeks in a row. The key to the success is leaving some gas in the tank for the next days training. Sometimes strength and power isn’t just from load and intensity, it comes from learning the proper patterns to develop the power.
Big Bird
[quote name='Bikemonkeys' date='Feb 23 2012, 02:10 PM' post='1158782']
If someone (me) can schedule 2 consecutive hours of workout time, what is the best order of working out? Sprints, weights, plyos?

If those 2 hours were broken up by 9 hours, would it be better to do sprints in the morning and weights at night?
[/quote]

The first question that I would ask is, what are you trying to achieve (for that particular day)? The body does and can work well with "themes". Having the objective of speed is much different than strength, as is general fitness.

Possibly, the best way to answer this is by understanding your energy systems, and how well your energy system is conditioned. Let me give you a hypothetical...

Today I am going to sprint my heart out - I want a personal record in my 30 foot sprint times. I bust ass, I get my PR and I head off to the gym....now that I'm on fire with my new sprint record, now I want to beat my personal best 1RM squat. Well truth is, this is unlikely, especially if your over 30.

My point is, we only have so much gas in the tank for our energy systems - and if you use it first on something, you don't have a full tank for something else. Here's something you won't find in books:
- when my Elite riders do plyos at the end of a training session, it's typically no big deal
- when my Elite riders do plyos as their main training for the day - they are blown out then next day
- Reason: most Elite riders REALLY give 110% and use up that energy system

Food for thought.


[quote name='Jake77' date='Feb 23 2012, 11:28 PM' post='1158885']
I just started experimenting with a workout program that uses the same lifts for 5 days a week, 8 weeks in a row. The key to the success is leaving some gas in the tank for the next days training. Sometimes strength and power isn’t just from load and intensity, it comes from learning the proper patterns to develop the power.
[/quote]

Just curious, what are you trying to achieve by doing the same lifts 5 days a week for 2 months?
Jake77
I read about Dan John's 40day challenge and saw that many people were having success with it. It's a different theory on structuring workouts that I've never tried. Im curious how my body responds to it. What are your thoughts big bird?
benbmx47
Jake, why do you aim to leave gas in the tank for the following session? Wouldn't it be way more beneficial to train 110% everytime for the best possible result?
s4lnj
like stretched out greasing the groove. lol
Jake77
The idea of not training to 110% is, it's easier for your body to recover from. You should recover quicker allowing you to train earlier. Sometimes your body will respond better to less stress and more frequent stimulus. Think of trying to teach your kid their abc's or times tables. You can force them to study it for 2 hours one night or 20 miniutes every day. What method do you think they will respond more favorably too? Also, when you leave a little in the tank you should be able to perform perfect reps. Your muscles will remember those quick powerful reps and not those slow sloppy grinding reps when you push to your max. It's also the reason you do sprints until your sprint starts to slow down, then you stop.

All that being said, sometimes pushing yourself beyond your capabilities is good. It all depends what your goals and focus is on. Right now my goal is to do a double bodyweight deadlift approx 350#. But as it gets warmer and I start racing outdoors my attention will turn to more of a focus on power and some conditioning. While conditioning I will be doing some intervals on the road bike or elliptical machine that will go beyond my 100% and I promise you they will get sloppy.
Jake77
Big Bird, I also feel like my deadlift form might be a little sloppy. When I started my 3 rep max was 255#, and now im doing 2 sets of 5 reps at 245 with strong form. Everytime other session I add 10#. With a traditional upper/lower or push/pull split you might only dead lift 2x a week if I hit the gym 4x a week. A normal week I may only get to the gym 3x, I'm not sure if that's enough to get good at something.
benbmx47
Sprints are an all out max effort every sprint, so when your times/speed starts to drop you pull the pin because you start to detrain, if only you only train in the gym for a small time frame and only do controlled 70% efforts to leave some fuel for tomorrow that may be good as a recovery session but when you try to perform a 'powerful' rep strength x speed = power you can't back off on either to achieve max power so your still giving each rep 100%
Jake77
[quote name='benbmx47' date='Feb 25 2012, 04:05 PM' post='1159219']
Sprints are an all out max effort every sprint, so when your times/speed starts to drop you pull the pin because you start to detrain, if only you only train in the gym for a small time frame and only do controlled 70% efforts to leave some fuel for tomorrow that may be good as a recovery session but when you try to perform a 'powerful' rep strength x speed = power you can't back off on either to achieve max power so your still giving each rep 100%
[/quote]



You're right, but that's not the way it's done. The idea is to do the reps as quickly/powerfully as possible but you would use a weight that would be approx your 7rm and only 5 reps with that weight for 2 sets. Or any other rep schemes, like 5 sets of 2 or whatever else. You just want to keep the reps around 10. Then you keep progressing your weight. Just so you know, I don't know how well or if this program will work, but it's something I've never tried. I see many other people have had good results by doing this. It may be a waste of time but sometimes it's the only way to find out.
Big Bird
[quote name='Jake77' date='Feb 25 2012, 02:58 AM' post='1159099']
I read about Dan John's 40day challenge and saw that many people were having success with it. It's a different theory on structuring workouts that I've never tried. Im curious how my body responds to it. What are your thoughts big bird?
[/quote]

I'm not sure. There are so many "programs" out there, it's hard to keep up. Unless someone else's goals match mine or my athletes', then I typically don't chase what some guy is claiming gave him 6 pack abs.

So when you say "many people were having success with it", do you mean BMXers?
Jake77
Well Dan John seems to be a very respected strength coach, olympic lifter and former track star, so I have more faith in his programs than some of the other ones that promise a 6 pack (which im positive he doesn't claim). He's not a bmx coach but he does teach lifting, and my goal right now is to improve my pulling power (which seems to be lacking right now).

I probably should have giving you more details on the program. It's not exactly 2 months straight of the exact same movements. It does vary slightly and so do the reps and sets.

I have a fairly good grasp on writing programs and training for bmx. I also know this program seems a little weird, but that's also what I like about it. I've never done anything like this, but I understand the concept of it and I'll definatly let you know if it's an epic failure. The program makes me wonder (if it works), if it would carry over for something like sprints or gates. I know Coach G preaches to leave the track wanting more.

So far I've done 7 days of the same program and I started out with about a 255# for 3 reps. Today I did 2 sets of 5 reps at 255#. Which I don't know if I'm getting stronger or my lifting economy is getting better. I will tell you that my back and legs feel fresh and ready to go, but my grip is a little weak now. I think tomorrow I will do one set of 10 reps to reduce the load and give my forearms a break.

Please don't misunderstand my reply. I love hearing everyones opinions on training. Keep them coming please. I would start a new topic about this for everyone to follow, but im afraid to put too much energy into it just to see it disappear.

Here are a few links. The first one is written by Coach John, explaining the program in a little more detail. The next two links are just a few reviews of the program and how they worked for them.

http://danjohn.net/2011/06/even-easier-strength-perform-better-notes/

http://tasfitness.blogspot.com/2011/06/i-wrote-this-article-for-dan-john.html

http://www.skillofstrength.blogspot.com/2011/05/easy-strength-40-day-program-review.html

Oh, and no I don't mean Bmxers are having success with this. But I don't think most bmxers are at the forefront of exercise programming.
Big Bird
[quote name='Jake77' date='Feb 28 2012, 01:20 AM' post='1159586']
Well Dan John seems to be a very respected strength coach, olympic lifter and former track star, so I have more faith in his programs than some of the other ones that promise a 6 pack (which im positive he doesn't claim). He's not a bmx coach but he does teach lifting, and my goal right now is to improve my pulling power (which seems to be lacking right now).

I probably should have giving you more details on the program. It's not exactly 2 months straight of the exact same movements. It does vary slightly and so do the reps and sets.

I have a fairly good grasp on writing programs and training for bmx. I also know this program seems a little weird, but that's also what I like about it. I've never done anything like this, but I understand the concept of it and I'll definatly let you know if it's an epic failure. The program makes me wonder (if it works), if it would carry over for something like sprints or gates. I know Coach G preaches to leave the track wanting more.

So far I've done 7 days of the same program and I started out with about a 255# for 3 reps. Today I did 2 sets of 5 reps at 255#. Which I don't know if I'm getting stronger or my lifting economy is getting better. I will tell you that my back and legs feel fresh and ready to go, but my grip is a little weak now. I think tomorrow I will do one set of 10 reps to reduce the load and give my forearms a break.

Please don't misunderstand my reply. I love hearing everyones opinions on training. Keep them coming please. I would start a new topic about this for everyone to follow, but im afraid to put too much energy into it just to see it disappear.

Here are a few links. The first one is written by Coach John, explaining the program in a little more detail. The next two links are just a few reviews of the program and how they worked for them.

http://danjohn.net/2011/06/even-easier-strength-perform-better-notes/

http://tasfitness.blogspot.com/2011/06/i-wrote-this-article-for-dan-john.html

http://www.skillofstrength.blogspot.com/2011/05/easy-strength-40-day-program-review.html

Oh, and no I don't mean Bmxers are having success with this. But I don't think most bmxers are at the forefront of exercise programming.
[/quote]

I checked out the links. I see an emphasis on fat loss and hypertrophy as a general philosophy in his overall beliefs. IMHO, any type of programming or philosophy that emphasizes appearance instead of performance belongs with the tanning bed folks.

If you goal is to raise up your strength quickly, I highly suggest looking up Wendler's 5/3/1 program.

BS
[quote name='Big Bird' date='Feb 28 2012, 09:51 AM' post='1159710']
I checked out the links. I see an emphasis on fat loss and hypertrophy as a general philosophy in his overall beliefs. IMHO, any type of programming or philosophy that emphasizes appearance instead of performance belongs with the tanning bed folks.

If you goal is to raise up your strength quickly, I highly suggest looking up Wendler's 5/3/1 program.
[/quote]
Bird,

[url="http://danjohn.net/"]Dan John[/url] is definitely not a "tanning bed" folk. He's an olympic lifter (small "o"), discus thrower and Highland Gamer. My earliest research about BMX training led me to his site for information about learning the olympic lifts. His site is where I actually first heard of Westside Barbell. He's an athlete and a trainer of athletes but his approach is based upon simplicity rather than heavy science. He gives props to Louis Simmons but he comes to training from more of the olympic lifts/throwing side. Like most trainers, his approach has changed over the years (and I don't know anything about these programs being addressed above) but he sure isn't a Muscle & Fitness type of guy. I know you can't research everybody but Dan John is a good dude that has some valuable things to say.

I am, however, a huge Jim Wendler fan and 5/3/1 is where I'm currently at. I've learned a lot more from Wendler than Dan John but I've learned a lot from Dan John's writings too. Just wanted to throw that out there.
BS
In order to not hi-jack the thread totally: I've always addressed speed training prior to force training when coupled on the same day. Always do speed training when "fresh" and if you're doing 90% or above on speed then don't expect PR's in the weight room (as Bird referenced above). Monitor the CNS as best you can and make sure you recover before hammering again.

With reference to the "leave some in the tank" discussion above: It's important to remember that we're BMX racers not powerlifters or weightlifters. So our goal in the weight room is not to maximize our squat (or PL total) but to increase our ability to generate force (and thus power) when on our bikes. Therefore, our bike work should be at 100% but we don't necessarily [i]have to[/i] hit 1 RM's in the weight room and we don't have to train that aspect to failure. All weight room work pretty much ends up being "assistance work" even though we will train "hard". You can still work "hard" doing 3 to 6 rep sets (they're still heavy) and leaving one set off at the end and still greatly increase your ability to generate force.

In my opinion, or whatever...
Jake77
I don't see Dan John catering to the tanning bed crowd. I think the original post might have been on T nation and he was catering to the bodybuilding crowd. I think his point with the fat loss and hypertrophy was that, the 40 day program wasn't necessarily glycoliticly demanding therefore you could get away with going on a lo carb diet (which im assuming is what the velocity diet is) and could get stronger and lean out. I'm sure most people would like both of those, bodybuilder or bmxers. Some hypertrophy will naturally come as you get stronger and work muscles you may have not fully worked before.

The Wendler program does look very good, and I'm sure works wonderfully. I've also heard many people suggest it because it gave them great gains. I may end up doing it depending on how my current program works, what my next goals will be after assessing where I’m at, and most importantly how my racings going. I just really like the simplicity of the 40 days and the emphasis it puts on what I'm working on.

Dan John's videos on YouTube are great. He has a way of explaining concepts in a very understandable way. He also has a way of pointing out the ways the body works, and great explanations of some O lifting, dead lifts, and kettlebell swings.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.