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Payton
First jump lowered and box jump is gone.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/17/...E8DHA7I20120217

So does mean no cereal bowl and spoon either?? laugh.gif
klakke
''Britain's Shanaze Reade, who won that women's test event at the Olympic Park last August, said afterwards that the track was on the limit when the wind picked up''

Even before the wind would take up, the womens track was too tough for most of the girls.. Shanaze just didnt notice cause she was way out in front smile.gif
klakke
QUOTE (Payton @ Feb 18 2012, 07:19 PM) *
First jump lowered and box jump is gone.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/17/...E8DHA7I20120217

So does mean no cereal bowl and spoon either?? laugh.gif


In the last DH podcast, Pete D. said that Johan had listened and that we could expect to see the consequences of this. So this is probably the first sign, that he has been listening

Thus; I dont think we will see any cereal bowls this year biggrin.gif
RedMist
It's good that they are working with the athletes. I'm glad the box jump is gone.
thebondtrader55
There is a God.
bmxundergrounddotcom
QUOTE (thebondtrader55 @ Feb 18 2012, 11:48 PM) *
There is a God.


Or common sense prevailed.
thebondtrader55
QUOTE (bmxundergrounddotcom @ Feb 19 2012, 10:09 AM) *
Or common sense prevailed.

Right.

It's a strange world where common sense just isn't very common.

Thanks and hope you're having a great weekend.
Bclark281
I thought the box jump was kind of a neat idea, but it just seemed to kill the entire flow of the track. Glad to see it gone.
FaithBMX
QUOTE (Bclark281 @ Feb 19 2012, 05:16 PM) *
I thought the box jump was kind of a neat idea, but it just seemed to kill the entire flow of the track. Glad to see it gone.

I was not against it in theory, but the execution was not right.
If it had flowed like normal dirt jumps, then no problem, but it was basically jump to land on flat box and ride off flat box to landing.
It could be cool to have obstacles constructed out of wood or metal, but they would need to be built to mimic normal dirt jump shapes and transitions.
thebondtrader55
Right.

I have nothing whatsoever against new, and even weird, obstacles. But they can't be instituted at the expense of flow.

A track with bad flow is a pretty sad sight. It's about as bad as it gets.

Thanks!
dunlop
QUOTE (klakke @ Feb 18 2012, 08:32 PM) *
''Britain's Shanaze Reade, who won that women's test event at the Olympic Park last August, said afterwards that the track was on the limit when the wind picked up''

Even before the wind would take up, the womens track was too tough for most of the girls.. Shanaze just didnt notice cause she was way out in front smile.gif


I think she might have been talking of the first straight ...agreed..when the wind is blowing those distances become very questionable..as far as the rest of the track its cake for them.. it looked like the videos show no issues after the first straight easy for them and the distances seemed ok...
Antsnz
thats great news
I knew John woudl listen to VBMX! haha
however the next questions is what are they going to replace it with? If I recall the box jump section really does drop in elevation

I vote for a rythum section with an option to triple at the end - i.e. see some different lines (or maybe I have watched to much motorcross SX lately)
klakke
QUOTE (dunlop @ Feb 19 2012, 02:58 PM) *
I think she might have been talking of the first straight ...agreed..when the wind is blowing those distances become very questionable..as far as the rest of the track its cake for them.. it looked like the videos show no issues after the first straight easy for them and the distances seemed ok...


All the girls just pumped through the entire 3rd straight. And it didnt look like the 'fun' kind of pumping
klakke
QUOTE (FaithBMX @ Feb 19 2012, 10:47 AM) *
I was not against it in theory, but the execution was not right.
If it had flowed like normal dirt jumps, then no problem, but it was basically jump to land on flat box and ride off flat box to landing.
It could be cool to have obstacles constructed out of wood or metal, but they would need to be built to mimic normal dirt jump shapes and transitions.


What is so tragi-comic about this whole 'Box Jump' debate, is the fact that the type of box jump they built in Madrid worked really well and it didnt cause any internet-outrage afterwards. Then they decided to take it to the lame level and then the internet rage began..

I think nobody would mind seeing the Madrid BJ on the Olympic track.

Madrid BJ = well placed and made for some good racing

London BJ = crap placed and with a dangerous steel frame
FaithBMX
While the Madrid "box jump" was infinitely better than Papendal or London; it was far from perfect.
In my opinion there was too much height difference from the take off to the top of the box.
Riders were having to shoot straight up, totally boned out rocket airs, to get on top.
If the box had been a little lower it would have been really cool.
The gap from take off to box could have even been a little further (horizontal distance, not vertical).
mannequinforce
I feel like Chula has consistently provided us with great racing every year and it doesn't have any gimmicks minus the berm jump. The third straight is super fast and awesome to watch, actually, every straight is fun to watch!
Mike Fields
Racing should be four straights, no gimicks.
Stileman
QUOTE (Mike Fields @ Feb 19 2012, 10:44 PM) *
Racing should be four straights, no gimicks.


Don't have a problem with the idea of gimmicks. It comes down to whether or not the gimmick is good or bad. I would consider the supercross starting hill to be a gimmick. Some gimmicks are good and some are bad. I think it comes down to how raceable the track is. IS there passing going on or not. I know with the box jump area at the London test event I saw three different leaders within a short period. It was Willers then Willoughby then Daudet then back to willers. Maybe it was a freak occurence to have that much passing or maybe it was the set up of the section. I hate seeing race to the first turn then follow the leader to the finish. On the guys main at London test event I saw the best race of the year.

I talked to top sx racer who thought that Speedworld was the most racealbe SX track last year. The track was more basic. When I talked to other SX racers they thought the track was basic, but when I got them thinking about it most of them agreed that Speedworld was very raceable.
benbmx47
box jumps, hips, transfers whatever you want to call them, are fun to ride, and make for some very entertaining spectating but its a race, not a dew tour street comp, just build tracks that a big, fast and have flow, different lines through rythm sections give the same diversity as a "box jump" with the added bonus of it actually working in a race.
thats what the sport is isnt it, bmx racing.
klakke
QUOTE (FaithBMX @ Feb 19 2012, 09:50 PM) *
While the Madrid "box jump" was infinitely better than Papendal or London; it was far from perfect.
In my opinion there was too much height difference from the take off to the top of the box.
Riders were having to shoot straight up, totally boned out rocket airs, to get on top.
If the box had been a little lower it would have been really cool.
The gap from take off to box could have even been a little further (horizontal distance, not vertical).


I agree, but it was the first time they did a BJ, so people seemed to accept that it wasnt 'perfect' the first time. Post Madrid I think people looked forward to riding an improved BJ and viewed the BJ as a new cool feature of SX that would be fun to ride.

What actually happened post Madrid, I dont feel a need to start discussing again smile.gif
reedhamilton
we've reconfigured the first jump and made it slightly shorter and we've taken away one of the jumps on the first bend and the box jump

Does that mean no berm jump in the first turn (bend?) for the men? No split track at the end of the first straight? Men and women taking the same first turn, like in Beijing?

I'm sure they are looking for the "sweet spot" between good track flow/competitive racing and entertaining track features/obstacles. Personally, I will miss the box feature. It created an awesome men's final at the test event when Daudet, Willoughby, and Willers all got bunched up there, and then went three-wide down the third straight.

Can't wait to see the Papendal modifications too. With some cooperation from the weather, that event should be one of the best of the year.
Eric151
All the things mentioned here are very valid but I think there is one huge point being missed! Everyone is speaking from their own point of view. The thing we are all hoping for the most from the Olympics is to gain new participants and help grow the sport. When people turn on BMX in the Olympics we want to keep their interest. It would be nice to hear from non BMX'ers what they thought of the race and what their favorite thing was. I know that I heard from several people they thought the BJ was pretty cool. Just an opinion which is usually pretty far from everybody on hear anyways!!!
g-mo
QUOTE (Mike Fields @ Feb 19 2012, 10:44 PM) *
Racing should be four straights, no gimicks.



This pretty much sums it up. The racing will provide its own entertainment factor.
woodybmx86
aren't jumps gimmicks? what's the real difference? it's like... if I like it, it's cool, if not, "it's not bmx!" in here. racing is about that, racing. what you race around doesnt define bmx. obatacles are there to demostrate a riders ability to overcome them and still win. there have been tracks I hate for the "flow" factor, but that doesnt mean "its not bmx!"
One of the coolest things I have ever seen was a MTB race whre they had to hit HUGE, and I mean huge, jumps, including a massive slanted wall ride/corner they launched onto and hopped off of onto a landing to go the other way. something like that would be amazing....
Weaver
racing should be 4 straights? same track every time too?

have yall seen how entertaining 4x stuff is? what about the red bull races that mix street and dirt into balls to the wall entertainment?

bmx has had the mx taken out of it...
g-mo
There's gimmick jumps in MX racing? Huh........


Wall rides and other goofy elements make SX look like a circus instead of an olympic discipline.
Uncle_Todd
QUOTE (Weaver @ Feb 20 2012, 09:05 PM) *
...
bmx has had the mx taken out of it...

I've said the same thing numerous times. Loose dirt, flat corners, mud, drag race straights, and such are now unacceptable for excitement, yet huge and more dangerous is.
g-mo
Papendal's new section. I suspect London will be similar.


klakke
QUOTE (g-mo @ Feb 20 2012, 06:24 PM) *
Papendal's new section. I suspect London will be similar.




Hmm looks interesting. How are you supposed to get through that?

QUOTE (reedhamilton @ Feb 20 2012, 11:56 AM) *
we've reconfigured the first jump and made it slightly shorter and we've taken away one of the jumps on the first bend and the box jump

Does that mean no berm jump in the first turn (bend?) for the men? No split track at the end of the first straight? Men and women taking the same first turn, like in Beijing?




I think this is the change on the first straight that they talk about; so no change to the mens section, only the womens
Jason F.
QUOTE (Uncle_Todd @ Feb 20 2012, 01:24 PM) *
I've said the same thing numerous times. Loose dirt, flat corners, mud, drag race straights, and such are now unacceptable for excitement, yet huge and more dangerous is.

I think the 20 something to even 30 something crowd is so amped up on xgames/video game type "show" that we will never see much pedaling in the last straight again except at local tracks. I personaly can not think of anything less exciting than a bunch of guys manualing through the last few obsticals to coast across the finish....no way in my world does that speak excitement. I have no idea what mindset builds the tracks but its not excitement based...imho.
Uncle_Todd
QUOTE (Jason F. @ Feb 21 2012, 03:33 AM) *
I think the 20 something to even 30 something crowd is so amped up on xgames/video game type "show" that we will never see much pedaling in the last straight again except at local tracks. I personaly can not think of anything less exciting than a bunch of guys manualing through the last few obsticals to coast across the finish....no way in my world does that speak excitement. I have no idea what mindset builds the tracks but its not excitement based...imho.

Totally agree, the only thing I can think of is sprinting to the finish line endangered some moms at the finish line and it grew from there.
Stileman
QUOTE (Jason F. @ Feb 20 2012, 09:33 PM) *
I think the 20 something to even 30 something crowd is so amped up on xgames/video game type "show" that we will never see much pedaling in the last straight again except at local tracks. I personaly can not think of anything less exciting than a bunch of guys manualing through the last few obsticals to coast across the finish....no way in my world does that speak excitement. I have no idea what mindset builds the tracks but its not excitement based...imho.

I defintley think that a lot of track design doesn't provide much side by side racing. I think that a rytym all the way to finish line is fine if the section is technical and shows who has the skills. A last straight that is easy does little to separate the riders. They all go the same speed. WHen you are tired you really find out which rider has the better technique. The best passing I saw at Rockford(A track that has a lot of pedaling to the finish) was 05ish when the first half of the rythym was really technical. Bubba went right by Kyle and Warwick. The other years when the last straight was easy Bubba made some passes but it was really difficult for him. The year the jumps were tech he went by riders way easier. In General when I see flat pedaling to the finish I don't see as much passing as a technical last straight.

A big problem to the racing in the US is in my opinion is how the turns are built. They are usually pretty one line coming out of the turn which single files and makes it harder to pass(when you are single file it is a full bike that you have to gain to pass where if you come out side by side you might only have the distance of the wheel to make up). This last Reno the turns were actually built pretty well. The second turn espeically. You could go side by side through and out of the turn. How a turn is shaped and built has a lot to do with the raceablity vs single file of a track.

Most of my opinions of raceable tracks have come from a career of racing BMX with horrible starts. I always had to come from behind. Some tracks, turns, jumps, sections made it easier to come from behind than other tracks. I find longer straights, wider exits of turns, and more challenging jumps lead to more passing and less single file racing.
Weaver
QUOTE (g-mo @ Feb 20 2012, 03:21 PM) *
There's gimmick jumps in MX racing? Huh........


Wall rides and other goofy elements make SX look like a circus instead of an olympic discipline.


you dont need gimmicks when youve got guys entertaining like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy3Yg1CB9pA...eature=related#

even the SX stuff seems like a track meet these days where only the participants and friends/family are going to make up the crowd.
Weaver
QUOTE (Jason F. @ Feb 20 2012, 08:33 PM) *
I think the 20 something to even 30 something crowd is so amped up on xgames/video game type "show" that we will never see much pedaling in the last straight again except at local tracks. I personaly can not think of anything less exciting than a bunch of guys manualing through the last few obsticals to coast across the finish....no way in my world does that speak excitement. I have no idea what mindset builds the tracks but its not excitement based...imho.


so mikey day manualing the entire rhythm section while passing people at reno (right?) is less exciting than watching robert macpherson and wade bootes sauce out, i mean sprint, to the finish line?
snickadams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q9rIses1cc...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUo-Az3Mf0M

The footage on these races (both the same race) lacks a little on the quality side but this is one of the greatest races I have seen. The Beijing track was a great racing track that allows for plenty of lead changes and this race exemplifies that. Glad we will get to see another race on this track next month.

klakke
QUOTE (snickadams @ Feb 21 2012, 10:26 AM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q9rIses1cc...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUo-Az3Mf0M

The footage on these races (both the same race) lacks a little on the quality side but this is one of the greatest races I have seen. The Beijing track was a great racing track that allows for plenty of lead changes and this race exemplifies that. Glad we will get to see another race on this track next month.


Chula pretty much have all the elements that makes a track good for passing. It has long and technical straights, where even the slightest error results in a significant loss of speed. And it has turns that a big and wide, which means that the rider in front not have the single-file-advantage that the rider in the front has on ordinary bmx tracks.

Id say the turns are the singlemost important factor, when looking at how to build a bmx track where passing can take place.
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