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RandyS
QUOTE (tommydone @ May 18 2011, 04:31 PM) *
when I was very vocal about the new NBL plan and how much I disliked it and how I couldnt afford all of that money upfront, I was told by a ton of people to shut up and just not race. so guess what? I didnt , I bought my son the local plan. The new NBL plan prohibited me and my son from racing regionals/nationals so I have absolutely no sympathy for all of the whining coming from people that put a bad bet on a lame horse,


Agreed, anyone who has been part of this website for at least 6 months knew full well that this was not a plan that a majority believed was sustainable. Those that chose to believe in magic NBL unicorns should be happy that it was a few hundred dollars and not the amount of money Bernie Madoff screwed people out of. If it's too good to be true it usually is. ABA is going to bail out your tracks that are owed for races so they don't go under, that will give you the choice to continue or not. I do feel bad for the new riders who were sold on the plan, we may have lost some of those forever. NBL and Gary Aragons fault, not the ABA.
traderman1956
Guys/gals you are asking the wrong question.

Everyone is correct about the sanctions right to revoke. They had the right and they have now exercised it. Mike was correct when he advised you not to attempt to recover these membership funds. The NBL members who have been damged would only incur not unsubstantial legal costs and in the end at best only a worthless judgement would be won.

The ABA has stepped in and assumed some of the liabilities of the failed organization and that is a very good thing for the sport. KUDOS!

No,the question is how much did the NBL take in and EXACTLY what was this money spent on? I remember when I first read about this " all you can race" plan while sitting at my desk and just quickly wondered what Mr. Aragon needed a big lump sum for? I was busy and went on to something else but that question stayed in the back of my mind. What did this guy need a lump sum for? The books will tell you all that and they should be compelled to produce them.

As we all know a fairly large sum of money was recieved by the NBL while very little racing went on. This is by their own admission. So where EXACTLY is this money? The NBL's books should be closely examined by a qualified accountant/attorney immediately. If the money was properly spent by an incompetent administration with a terrible business plan then it is sad, but legal. People running firms into the ground is tragic but it does happen all the time.
But folks, this administration ran through a lot of money in 137 days. 137 DAYS!!! That bears close examination.

Now whatever you do don't go and hire a high priced lawyer to look at this. That isn't necessary. They have institutions in every county who will be very interested and will do it for you at no charge. This instituion is called the District Attorneys office. They are full of qualified Pros who will be very intersted in this little affair. In addition to this county level there are federal institutions as well who take a very dim view of shenanigans at non profits.

Folks, there has been a lot of money gone through here in a very short period of time and there is a better than average chance that someone with no right to it still has some of it. I have seen things very similar to this with much larger sums in the past. This is quite clumsy but who knows, it could be their first time out of the gate. There is no surer way in business to make money than a plan that has no real intention of success in the first place. It is alwats a HUGE RED FLAG when outside companies are started/purchased and soon thereafter the original company is bankrupt and subsequently ha to close or merge. This is the simple but CLASSIC form. This would be a very, very, very small adventure compared to many I am familiar with but the lack of size doesn't make it any less repulsive.

If everything is on the up and up here then fine. But there won't be an apology coming from here either way. The best this bunch can hope for now is that they were incompetent at best. And the board hired the wrong guy and then stuck with him too D... long. That doesn't deserve an apology and certainly no applause.

To all of you who paid your money to the NBL you deserve a professional answer to where your money went. And by extension where it is now. Don't let anybody on here or anybody else tell you any different. And as soon as this is posted many will tell that as soon as they can type. Everybody is excited by the takeover as am I. But this is not over. Don't roll over on this. You deserve better.

I tell you now that there are things here that smell bad and if this is so don't let these "people' get away with it. Your money is well and truly gone but you might save someone else's hard earned money in the future. There is dignity in that.

Don't ever forget that basic business incompetence is legal and not that uncommon.

Outright fraud isn't.

All the Best

The Bondtrader

















lumpy
QUOTE (geharrison @ May 18 2011, 03:38 PM) *
Maybe (just maybe) the NBL 'all you can race' plan would have worked if Racers and Track Operators had not gotten greedy and changed their habits.?.


Remember, it was the NBL that encouraged that... Remember a former board memeber saying "Why charge for practice when we will pay you to race?"

Anybody that can balance their own check book should have been able to see why the all you can race plan was doomed from the get go...

Brian
DaveT
QUOTE (lumpy @ May 18 2011, 12:54 PM) *
Remember, it was the NBL that encouraged that... Remember a former board memeber saying "Why charge for practice when we will pay you to race?"

Anybody that can balance their own check book should have been able to see why the all you can race plan was doomed from the get go...

Brian



Agreed.

I think some of you should go through your post histories and actually read what you wrote back in September. Quite a few people called out the plan for what it was or asked important yet unanswered questions and a number of you just dismissed it and labeled people as haters.



Bill Hayden
QUOTE (DaveT @ May 18 2011, 01:05 PM) *
Agreed.

I think some of you should go through your post histories and actually read what you wrote back in September. Quite a few people called out the plan for what it was or asked important yet unanswered questions and a number of you just dismissed it and labeled people as haters.

Many of us were people that held cards in both, and Dave is right, we were called haters for warning people. I had poeple tell me, "well we will wait and see, I have to have hope" I shook my head and thought, man if you are really sick (broke) wouldnt you go to a Dr (get your business affairs in order) ,than hope you get better. Your hope could kill you.
BMXbloodline
QUOTE
Maybe (just maybe) the NBL 'all you can race' plan would have worked if Racers and Track Operators had not gotten greedy and changed their habits.?.


Many of you know me, and I was not the TO...Greedy? It was GA and his "new" plan that spewed frm his mouth, you get to race for free and practice....WHAT? Without considering the tracks, and what overhead they had.... After giving hours upon hours of myself to the track and th sport, NOT to mention the TO and all our crew....we are far from greedy. We have given back to our riders and track, which was long overdue. I suppose its always easier to see it from the outside looking in.....
I wasn't going to comment, but this just down right pissed me off....what we have put into the track and the sport, and what is yet too come, is a direct INSULT to me and our crew of volunteers!!
MikeCarruth
Just out of curiosity:

Has anyone even READ the NBL member contract? I have, and, at least on mine, it makes no reference whatsoever to "all you can race" or "unlimited racing for a year," etc. I'm looking at the big, pink sheet.

No doubt at times like these, lots of folks pull out their DVD of "The Firm," "A Civil Action" and "The Rainmaker" and watch them back-to-back-to-back, hoping for some kind of divine inspiration from the law gods of the cinema.

As I said on another thread:

The situation with the memberships is an unfortunate turn of events. But, as a dad who paid $99 up front, I am not all that bent about it. I have about $50 worth of "credit," after racing four times, and then deducting the $25ish "Registration Fee" (Gary did not say for sure what we would be hit with as the registration fee).

So, the way I'm looking at it is that I paid ~$50 for Jordan's NBL membership (like last time), and got 8 coupons for free locals.


M
jj
Nice work, Joker75. That was apropos.


svtfmook
QUOTE (traderman1956 @ May 18 2011, 12:51 PM) *
Guys/gals you are asking the wrong question.

Everyone is correct about the sanctions right to revoke. They had the right and they have now exercised it. Mike was correct when he advised you not to attempt to recover these membership funds. The NBL members who have been damged would only incur not unsubstantial legal costs and in the end at best only a worthless judgement would be won.

The ABA has stepped in and assumed some of the liabilities of the failed organization and that is a very good thing for the sport. KUDOS!

No,the question is how much did the NBL take in and EXACTLY what was this money spent on? I remember when I first read about this " all you can race" plan while sitting at my desk and just quickly wondered what Mr. Aragon needed a big lump sum for? I was busy and went on to something else but that question stayed in the back of my mind. What did this guy need a lump sum for? The books will tell you all that and they should be compelled to produce them.

As we all know a fairly large sum of money was recieved by the NBL while very little racing went on. This is by their own admission. So where EXACTLY is this money? The NBL's books should be closely examined by a qualified accountant/attorney immediately. If the money was properly spent by an incompetent administration with a terrible business plan then it is sad, but legal. People running firms into the ground is tragic but it does happen all the time.
But folks, this administration ran through a lot of money in 137 days. 137 DAYS!!! That bears close examination.

Now whatever you do don't go and hire a high priced lawyer to look at this. That isn't necessary. They have institutions in every county who will be very interested and will do it for you at no charge. This instituion is called the District Attorneys office. They are full of qualified Pros who will be very intersted in this little affair. In addition to this county level there are federal institutions as well who take a very dim view of shenanigans at non profits.

Folks, there has been a lot of money gone through here in a very short period of time and there is a better than average chance that someone with no right to it still has some of it. I have seen things very similar to this with much larger sums in the past. This is quite clumsy but who knows, it could be their first time out of the gate. There is no surer way in business to make money than a plan that has no real intention of success in the first place. It is alwats a HUGE RED FLAG when outside companies are started/purchased and soon thereafter the original company is bankrupt and subsequently ha to close or merge. This is the simple but CLASSIC form. This would be a very, very, very small adventure compared to many I am familiar with but the lack of size doesn't make it any less repulsive.

If everything is on the up and up here then fine. But there won't be an apology coming from here either way. The best this bunch can hope for now is that they were incompetent at best. And the board hired the wrong guy and then stuck with him too D... long. That doesn't deserve an apology and certainly no applause.

To all of you who paid your money to the NBL you deserve a professional answer to where your money went. And by extension where it is now. Don't let anybody on here or anybody else tell you any different. And as soon as this is posted many will tell that as soon as they can type. Everybody is excited by the takeover as am I. But this is not over. Don't roll over on this. You deserve better.

I tell you now that there are things here that smell bad and if this is so don't let these "people' get away with it. Your money is well and truly gone but you might save someone else's hard earned money in the future. There is dignity in that.

Don't ever forget that basic business incompetence is legal and not that uncommon.

Outright fraud isn't.

All the Best

The Bondtrader

that's all real observant and intelligent and all, but where does it say the NBL was "out of money"?

from the past week in NBL news, i know that they were on the path of not being able to sustain itself throughout the year, that just means that they have more paying out than taking in, not completely out of money
Bags1
QUOTE (RandyS @ May 18 2011, 12:35 PM) *
Because it's not done. GA issues a press release, webinar, or national schedule before there is anything ready. ABA does not. Gary Aragon will be long gone before ABA offically announces it. ABA will pick up the pieces for the good of their own business and the good of BMX in the United States. He wants people to vote for him to stay on the board afterwards. laugh.gif

You do of course realize the webinar was a "joint" deal with BA and John David, correct?
joker75
QUOTE (jj @ May 18 2011, 11:52 AM) *
Nice work, Joker75. That was apropos.

Thanks. I guess I could have gone with the story about Ed's Sushi which was an exclusive establishment that required a membership to even go in. One day Ed's Sushi decided to sell only all you can eat yearly memberships, but had the poor forethought to locate their restaurant next to the Sumo wretlers training facility. This all resulted in, you guessed it, Ed's Sushi in the red.

In comes Chin Woo's Sushi Palace, also an exclusive establishment that also requires an anual membership, to save the day. They take over the debts of Ed's as payment and even chose to keep the name of Ed's Sushi for that restaurant because of the customer base that it already had. Should Chin Woo's Sushi Palace be forced to honor a rediculously thought out contract by a defunct business that doesn't even exist, just because they chose to allow a name to continue to exist?

I can see them allowing the current members to still have access to the exclusive establishment. I can even see giving them a credit if they paid for the membership up front and only ate at the restaurant a couple of timesprior to the business going under, but to allow them to run a second business into the ground with a losing business model is just insane. And the fact that know they will have to go back to pay as you go once their current membership is over would just be even more incentive to overindulge until that membership is up.

If you can't tell, I really like story time. Sometimes they don't have happy endings though. Sometimes the knight loses the fight with the dragon, and sometimes the nice guy doesn't end up getting the girl, but that doesn't mean they aren't still just as valid a story as the ones that end with ereryone dancing around the campfire holding hands and singing.
woodybmx86
Now come on. they either were out of money or not. From what I heard on the webinar and what was posted... they had no money. ABA came in with a too good to pass up offer, paid what they owed, and it's done.

I ran some numbers again today... for curiosity. I only looked at Girls challenger and expert, and boys challenger and expert. Looked at the national rankings, and who has raced the national series. It was roughly 2,000 NBL girls and experts who have raced the national series this year. If each had a 300 membership... that would be 600,000 dollars.

Thre are 106 NBL tracks. if right now, each had raced 10 races and had averaged 100 riders per race, that would about 686,000 dollars.

You can see why some would say it is sustainable, why others would say it's not, and why others would wonder where the money went. add in variables such as local rider memberships, cruiser riders (I know quite a few who dont ride 20, and bought the national just for cruiser), unbought meberships (those waiting on the local track to open to sign up), tracks racing MORE just to get the dollars, etc... and you see even more questions.

Do I think it COULD have been sustainable? yeap. Do I buy the out of money due to memberships thing? not completely. Do I wonder where the money might have gone? of course. I personally think more of an explanation to NBL members is owed than hey, ABA is the leader, we are out of money. sorry boutcha. jsut saying.

Here is another way to look at it. 10,000 members. If each member raced 20 times locally, cruiser or 20 or whatever, That is 1,200,000 dollars the NBL would have to pay out. If each member only bought the 140 local program, that is 1,400,000 NBL brought in.

Do I think the plan was sustainable, if done right? yeah. so does this make me wonder even more where money might have gone? heck yeah.
joker75
What your $200,000 excess doesn't account for are those who will race multiple bikes multiple times a week, because it's free. The other thing I can think of right off is administrative costs. I don't know for sure, but unless all of the NBL board members and staff members are volunteer positions that is going to cut into your padding. Then there is the general office costs. Then you are going to have to pay for offices, computers, fax machines, copiers, utilities, paper, ink, advertising, and a whole crap load of other expenses that are necessary to keep an organization running. That $200,000 would disappear very quickly once alot of those little things get added together.

Overall picture is that the NBL as we all knew it is not going to be around much longer. If you bought into the all you can eat buffet you may not be allowed to keep gorging for free, but as far as I'm concerned you aren't getting screwed nearly as bad as you would have if the ABA hadn't taken the actions it did.

It just gets old hearing people complain that what they are being offered isn't good enough. I know that it puts a damper on plans that were made thinking you could enjoy all for nothing, or at least very little. However, once reality smacks you in the face, I can't see how you wouldn't agree that you aren't any worse off than you would have been if you were running the old membership model and you raced the same races you chose to race up until this point of this membership.
Bill Hayden
Forget the other bikes people race, there is a cost to running a business. Which, even being non profit, the NBL was. There is overhead and payroll, nothing is free. That sum of $200,000 could be gone through quickly
mister2dt
Insuring the tracks and races alone would eat 200k....
woodybmx86
QUOTE (joker75 @ May 18 2011, 07:28 PM) *
What your $200,000 excess doesn't account for are those who will race multiple bikes multiple times a week, because it's free. The other thing I can think of right off is administrative costs. I don't know for sure, but unless all of the NBL board members and staff members are volunteer positions that is going to cut into your padding. Then there is the general office costs. Then you are going to have to pay for offices, computers, fax machines, copiers, utilities, paper, ink, advertising, and a whole crap load of other expenses that are necessary to keep an organization running. That $200,000 would disappear very quickly once alot of those little things get added together.

Overall picture is that the NBL as we all knew it is not going to be around much longer. If you bought into the all you can eat buffet you may not be allowed to keep gorging for free, but as far as I'm concerned you aren't getting screwed nearly as bad as you would have if the ABA hadn't taken the actions it did.

It just gets old hearing people complain that what they are being offered isn't good enough. I know that it puts a damper on plans that were made thinking you could enjoy all for nothing, or at least very little. However, once reality smacks you in the face, I can't see how you wouldn't agree that you aren't any worse off than you would have been if you were running the old membership model and you raced the same races you chose to race up until this point of this membership.

And.. you are missing a big point also. Under the old plan, people did things differently. running two classes at a national didnt cost the NBL anymore, like it would have at a local.

the 200,000 padding isn't absolute. If you read it that was if everybody in the NBL bought the local plan. there were at least 2,000 that bought the National plan that was twice as much... already. Just saying.
and again, I said if done right... by that I mean if they had put it into place a structure where normal race patterns were upheld, it would have been sustainable. BUT... that's just thinking at this point. Thre wasn't enough racing goint on yet to make that shorfall a major factor... I'm just saying Bondtraders questions are interesting.

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt up to a certain point. then when things are like, Um... huh... then I start wondering.
murrdog
How can any plan that asks you to pay X amount of money for said deal then sustain itself when you can race enough to match what you first paid and or exceed it?

I bet the total salaries of those working at the NBL far exceeds $200,000. What about the cost of all the traveling done by the NBL people. Then where does the money come from to put on the big races? There is so much more than has to be paid out that isn't even talked about.
bdine
QUOTE (mister2dt @ May 17 2011, 10:46 PM) *
you just stated it right there, any license issued by the NBL may be revoked, suspend or otherwise made invalid with or without cause. That means they can invalidate your membership at anytime they feel needed. right now, they need to invalidate all memberships for the "all you can race" in order to continue operating. This would be a suspension with or without cause, they cannot sustain operations giving away racing for the remainder of the year. that is just cause to invalidate the membership for restructuring

Fraud and Theft Through Deception are legal issues that could possibly be alleged here. I know that tracks have to earn money to keep going. Maybe the Regional and National races should be honored through the rest of the season for the Season Pass holders but still pay for locals to keep the tracks making some money to operate. That way it won't look like a " Lets get lots of money and file Banktruptcy scheme. " They were pushing this new system at the grands back in September if you remember.
RCain
Look, a bunch of "We wanna know where the money went hur hur." isn't going to change the fact that it is what it is. We all had a good idea what was about to happen before ABA stepped in, and as much as some don't want to believe it, the sunshine Gary was blowing up your skirts in his "response" to Bunts post was simply an attempt to keep the natives happy until an exit strategy could be formulated. Handing the title and keys over to ABA was obviously considered by the NBL board a better option than what was about to happen.
Ya'll can spend as much time and effort as you'd like trying to blame this all on somebody, or theorizing on this or that thing that could have made it all work out the way you would have liked it to.
Or, you can accept it for what it is.
GA didn't start the sanction wars, he was handed a rusty old battleship that was mostly sunk and told "Go get 'em."
I'd bet anyone a triple mocha latte that you can dig as deeply as you wish and the only impropriety you will find in Garys dealings is that money was going out faster than it was coming in. NBL didn't fail because of Gary, NBL failed because it hasn't been able to compete for many years. Gary didn't drive the bus into the river, he got behind the wheel after the fact and tried to get it out.

"A contract is a contract"...
Yes it is, right up until the moment that the entity issuing the contract dissolves and no longer exists, then you have a piece of paper worth nothing.
I suppose f I were in the position of having lost money in this deal I would chalk it up to a tax on my poor judgement, having put faith into a program that many (Even some die hard NBLers) thought would fail.

bdine
QUOTE (RandyS @ May 18 2011, 12:46 PM) *
Agreed, anyone who has been part of this website for at least 6 months knew full well that this was not a plan that a majority believed was sustainable. Those that chose to believe in magic NBL unicorns should be happy that it was a few hundred dollars and not the amount of money Bernie Madoff screwed people out of. If it's too good to be true it usually is. ABA is going to bail out your tracks that are owed for races so they don't go under, that will give you the choice to continue or not. I do feel bad for the new riders who were sold on the plan, we may have lost some of those forever. NBL and Gary Aragons fault, not the ABA.

Your right. Bernie ended up in jail and is dead now. rolleyes.gif
Bill Hayden
QUOTE (RCain @ May 18 2011, 05:48 PM) *
Look, a bunch of "We wanna know where the money went hur hur." isn't going to change the fact that it is what it is. We all had a good idea what was about to happen before ABA stepped in, and as much as some don't want to believe it, the sunshine Gary was blowing up your skirts in his "response" to Bunts post was simply an attempt to keep the natives happy until an exit strategy could be formulated. Handing the title and keys over to ABA was obviously considered by the NBL board a better option than what was about to happen.
Ya'll can spend as much time and effort as you'd like trying to blame this all on somebody, or theorizing on this or that thing that could have made it all work out the way you would have liked it to.
Or, you can accept it for what it is.
GA didn't start the sanction wars, he was handed a rusty old battleship that was mostly sunk and told "Go get 'em."
I'd bet anyone a triple mocha latte that you can dig as deeply as you wish and the only impropriety you will find in Garys dealings is that money was going out faster than it was coming in. NBL didn't fail because of Gary, NBL failed because it hasn't been able to compete for many years. Gary didn't drive the bus into the river, he got behind the wheel after the fact and tried to get it out.

"A contract is a contract"...
Yes it is, right up until the moment that the entity issuing the contract dissolves and no longer exists, then you have a piece of paper worth nothing.
I suppose f I were in the position of having lost money in this deal I would chalk it up to a tax on my poor judgement, having put faith into a program that many (Even some die hard NBLers) thought would fail.

I'd ahve to say also, that last year was the year they suffered the least losses. So when he was handed the keys, the ship had more than likely taken on too much water to handle the plan.
burdettebmx
It sucks, but those who held Confederate dollars or Confederate government bonds in 1865 probably were not very happy either....

Having looked at the ABA and NBL packages last year for opening a track I really liked the promotion side of the ABA package. At least that portion will be an improvement for the NBL tracks.

I just hope the merger does not suck the wind out of the NBL local, regional and national series THIS YEAR. People will definitely feel betrayed and be skittish about throwing $$$ towards the NBL series. I can see tracks just opening and on the margin falling under this year (Those tracks under 12 motos at their local races). On the other hand, people may be chasing a plate that will be a collector's item in a few years.
knot head
Reading Woody86 whining for the last couple of days about this and that and his wife and such. Man, grow a SET. Who wears the skinny jeans and shmedium t-shirt n your house??

It's not like you people weren't told time and time again by a lot of smart folks out there. Now you're the victim and it's everybodys fault but your own??

I for one, have been telling you guys for as long as I can remember.

Makes me think of one of my favorite comedians out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxKStPXyn8

I'm out................
ZeroTolerence
QUOTE (tommydone @ May 17 2011, 09:07 PM) *
to ask the ABA to put itself in financial jeopardy by continuing a doomed plan is insane. this plan bankrupted the NBL, what do you think would happen if the ABA adopted this plan? the same thing , they would go bankrupt because you cannot sustain any business by paying out more than you take in.



my head hurts when i read your comments..the nbl was in financial struggles long before this plan.
Bill Hayden
QUOTE (ZeroTolerence @ May 18 2011, 06:28 PM) *
my head hurts when i read your comments..the nbl was in financial struggles long before this plan.

Right, so again the question stands, why should the ABA go down the same path???? Ok Joe, you buy a car, your dream car, and you get it for a real steal. Your buddy tells you, "man that is a deal, too good to be true". Then you find out the bearing is spun, so you asked your local mechanic to fix it for free. Bet he has choice words, he is there to make money, not hand out freebies to buyers that didnt do due dilagence.
tommydone
QUOTE (ZeroTolerence @ May 18 2011, 06:28 PM) *
my head hurts when i read your comments..the nbl was in financial struggles long before this plan.

ok so the the question begs to be asked. If your business was in financial trouble , why on earth would you institute a plan that would just run it into the ground? unless it was done on purpose. I am sorry that your head hurts, I will try to use smaller words next time.
MikeCarruth
QUOTE (tommydone @ May 18 2011, 06:26 PM) *
ok so the the question begs to be asked. If your business was in financial trouble , why on earth would you institute a plan that would just run it into the ground? unless it was done on purpose. I am sorry that your head hurts, I will try to use smaller words next time.


Come on, Tommy...you've seen Star Trek before:

Kirk is in a fix, and knows it is certain death unless he tries the one thing that has never been tried, and could not possibly work. He beckons to Mr. Scott to give him "all she's got," but Scott has it at the max. "Any more and she'll fly apart, Captain!." A radical solution is undertaken, and Kirk pulls the Enterprise from the clutches of the Klingons, to fight again next week. What a hero that Capt. Kirk is!

While on the next channel is a wide shot of smoldering wreckage of what appears to have been an airliner...a big gold globe on its shattered blue tail. "It was Pliot Error," the NTSB investigator says later..."he was fatigued, and, realized he was coming in to the airport way too fast. Based on the voice recorder data, it appeared he extended the flaps to slow down, but the aircraft slowed down too much, stalled, and impacted the ground in the "Pleasant Sunset" subdivision. Flawed execution and situational awareness by the pilot resulted in the deaths of 71 passengers and crew." What a bonehead that pilot is (was)!

People don't institute plans knowing it would spin the company into the ground. I don't blame Gary for doing what he did. And I certainly don't think it was done on purpose. But being an outsider to BMX did, in my view, result in flawed situational awareness: "how will your customer behave when X, Y, or Z happens?"...they won't sign up, and will wait til their region comes out of the frost...they will race their asses off to make sure they get double the value out of it...tracks will triple their schedules and offer every incentive to get riders to race two bikes, etc.

This may not have been the case in the "real world," but among BMXers, all of us could see the plane heading for the proverbial mountain. And still some, myself included, bought the membership.

For some, it was the confidence that maybe there was something they were not seeing, and it would all work out...and for some, they didn't really care if the $99 (or whatever) was ultimately in the trash--they wanted to race those races, and "factored it in" in a way BMX dads so-often do when building a new $2000 bike for their six year old, or spending $25,000+ for a year of chasing points in pursuit of a piece of vinyl (something that makes even little league dads blanch).

And, of course, maybe not running the "Kobayashi Maru" enough times against his plan. Who knows? It is all-too easy to run the armchair CEO game.

The "Occam's razor" answer is that the ABA just did it better.

They are/were a hella-strong opponent: very well organized, sharply focused, intensely motivated and fiercely competitive, with a loyal army of customer evangelists.

All that said, I think the "all you can race" concept is/was a great idea--it's the way LOCAL racing should be, IMHO. The local program should be "zero-friction" for new customers, and "box-of-hammers" easy for your prospect to understand. "Pay $99 and race all you want" (though adding the words "at this track" may have made a big difference in this case). An easy sell, for sure. LOTS of flaws to it, as we now know, but you can't argue with the beauty of its simplicity, if you could make it work.

I am bummed that it will now be a punchline for all BMX eternity, and probably never attempted again, strictly on that basis. There were a TRUCKLOAD of things wrong with the "new NBL." The CONCEPT...the idea of the all you can race format was good, but executed in a way so profoundly lacking, that the whole team would have been fired on the second episode, if this were "The Apprentice."

Chemotherapy is a terrible idea...until doing something radical is the only thing left, to shock the system. In this case, the "patient" died, but their organs will live on in another body...and that is a great thing.


Best,

M
ZeroTolerence
QUOTE (Bill Hayden @ May 18 2011, 05:44 PM) *
Right, so again the question stands, why should the ABA go down the same path???? Ok Joe, you buy a car, your dream car, and you get it for a real steal. Your buddy tells you, "man that is a deal, too good to be true". Then you find out the bearing is spun, so you asked your local mechanic to fix it for free. Bet he has choice words, he is there to make money, not hand out freebies to buyers that didnt do due dilagence.



Well no...IF you buy a car somewhere it is their responsibility to make sure it is good working condition. I dont think the ABA should go down the same path. I am all for the merger. BMX is BMX to me..dont really care what sanction we race...we just go to the biggest races within reason. I had a feeling the nbl program wasnt going to work..but what made it not work is all the people who didnt jump on board...none of which would have lost money.. In fact I saved hundreds of dollars per racer I pay for. Had the nbl reached its 12,000 member goal it would have been sustainable. So instead of people using their heads and realizing..hey this idea may not work but I am going to support the nbl until it doesnt.. most said I am going to wait on the sidelines and see what happens, Therefore the downfall of the nbl's new plan wasnt the plan or gary aragon..it was us.
Bill Hayden
Right Joe, and like you said and most people knew, the NBL was bleeding money, and yet you bought into it.
tommydone
this plan may not work but I am going to support it anyway? if they got their 12000 riders how was it going to work when they would have had to pay out that much more money. if you take in $99 for a local plan from 1 rider and have to pay a track $6 every time that rider races and that rider turns around and races 40 locals in a season, the NBL would have had to pay out $240 for that rider that they collected $99 from. how is that ever going to work? and i didnt even use a calculator. the only way that plan works is they sell 12000 memberships and hope that only 7000 people actually race just like a gym
Brett Middaugh
Looking back at the title of this thread I would also like to point out the following:

A horse is a horse, unless that horse is named Mr Ed.

Thank you,
back to more radical BMX action...
The Riddler Al-F
Mike, Kirk made it with two Green chicks too!!! wub.gif Just sayin drinks.gif

What I do know is this; I am just plain glad to still have BMX to race.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I didn't buy into the buffet racing plan, I had a hard time justifying it. Besides, I have barely had time for bikes and opted for MTB/XC season as it was easier to fit in my schedule.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who has tried in the past to stand up for the NBL when they needed an advocate. However, after a few key incidences, I had to just back away, leave them (and BMX) to their own devices and focus on my own life. Not that my contributions to standing up forthem did much, I just thought it was right.

1) Then I had my own incident with them, it was frustrating to say the least. All I could do for them at that point was not bash them on here...doubt it would have mattered and it didn't. At least Bob Tedesco offeried an apology but that was all.

2) I lost the rest of my respect for them when GA delivered the lawsuit threat speach that CROMO mentioned. They delivered to one of my favorite tracks, a track that is near and dear to my heart, "The" track that I referred to as though it was its own country of BMXico. Sandy Ridge. Until that speech Iwas against them turning ABA but that threat speech changed my mind (No I wasn't there but I heard about it from friends) What a PR idiocy that was.

3) Buffet racing wasn't favorable to my schedule or geography, so I never renewed my NBL licence.

Now it all fell apart but the ABA/USABMX stepped up. as a result I have both theABA and the NBL again. Thanks ABA! In the world of freemarket you are the victorious conquerer. Thank you for your benevolent demeanor!

Al Ferri
Brett Middaugh
In order to win kobayashi maru you have to rig the system to begin with....
bmxundergrounddotcom
QUOTE (woodybmx86 @ May 18 2011, 01:54 PM) *
Now come on. they either were out of money or not. From what I heard on the webinar and what was posted... they had no money. ABA came in with a too good to pass up offer, paid what they owed, and it's done.

I ran some numbers again today... for curiosity. I only looked at Girls challenger and expert, and boys challenger and expert. Looked at the national rankings, and who has raced the national series. It was roughly 2,000 NBL girls and experts who have raced the national series this year. If each had a 300 membership... that would be 600,000 dollars.

Thre are 106 NBL tracks. if right now, each had raced 10 races and had averaged 100 riders per race, that would about 686,000 dollars.

You can see why some would say it is sustainable, why others would say it's not, and why others would wonder where the money went. add in variables such as local rider memberships, cruiser riders (I know quite a few who dont ride 20, and bought the national just for cruiser), unbought meberships (those waiting on the local track to open to sign up), tracks racing MORE just to get the dollars, etc... and you see even more questions.

Do I think it COULD have been sustainable? yeap. Do I buy the out of money due to memberships thing? not completely. Do I wonder where the money might have gone? of course. I personally think more of an explanation to NBL members is owed than hey, ABA is the leader, we are out of money. sorry boutcha. jsut saying.

Here is another way to look at it. 10,000 members. If each member raced 20 times locally, cruiser or 20 or whatever, That is 1,200,000 dollars the NBL would have to pay out. If each member only bought the 140 local program, that is 1,400,000 NBL brought in.

Do I think the plan was sustainable, if done right? yeah. so does this make me wonder even more where money might have gone? heck yeah.


You have forgotten the ugliest item in the room - how much was paid for GSX. Could this purchase have been the downfall? I haven't heard how much was paid.
woodybmx86
QUOTE (knot head @ May 18 2011, 10:19 PM) *
Reading Woody86 whining for the last couple of days about this and that and his wife and such. Man, grow a SET. Who wears the skinny jeans and shmedium t-shirt n your house??

It's not like you people weren't told time and time again by a lot of smart folks out there. Now you're the victim and it's everybodys fault but your own??

I for one, have been telling you guys for as long as I can remember.

Makes me think of one of my favorite comedians out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxKStPXyn8

I'm out................

Knot head has a man-crush on me. haha. too I have a better reputation... chew on that. hehehehehe.

I have no problem with being upset over getting a bad deal. How does this lead into negative about the merger? it doesn't. I haven't posted anything about the ABA owing me this and that. I'm just trying personally to not get too bad of a deal.
If you think I shouldn't be... you are more stupid than your posts show. hahahahah

Mike... YOU hit the nail on the head. Period.

tommydone... 40 locals is alot. I dont think I could hit 40 locals the entire summer in IN. lol. make a case, but make it a little more realistically... Most of the NBL has less than 5 months of local racing. Just saying.

I'm looking forward to next year. I think the GSX thing is a valid question... especially since it is going forward with Gary at the helm.
bmxundergrounddotcom
I will have a big time issue with moving forward with these groups if Aragon is involved, and I have spoken to several track directors who feel the same way.
reedhamilton
During the webinar, it was stated that GSX is an independent entity from USABMX and that the NBL will be selling whatever GSX shares it owns.

And this talk of the NBL making a big payment to the UCI just doesn't make any sense. I'm sure the UCI was happy to make the BMX hand-off to NBL/GSX and focus on their real moneymaker - road cycling.

So stoked to see BMX history made on May 17, 2011. Although this NBL/ABA marriage might start out messy, just wait until you see how this benefits BMX racing in the future.

Hopefully USABMX will use this opportunity to focus on emphasizing local races and de-emphasizing nationals. This could be the perfect opportunity to replace income from nationals with income from locals. And if they can throw in some type of club system, that would be a bonus.

For old farts like me who raced in the 70's, we did not think we would live to see this day. This is almost as cool as watching BMX in the Olympics.

Rock on, USABMX !!!


wagonguy
Isn't Gary a partner in GSX?
bmxmom156
at the end of this contract year( nbl grands) why cant the aba just absorb all the nbl tracks and make it all one sanction so we can get on with racing as we know it? instead of splintering up this group... as it seems eventually that is what will happen in the end. why waste a whole year of east/ west i dont understand what purpose that serves?

if our eastern tracks convert to aba the riders can still race be a part of something bigger, switch over to the districts based on location( i dont know what this entails just guessing here as we have limited aba racing in the past) race nationals to go for a national plate, etc... the local tracks can choose to run how they want i was told even under aba( state wise)

im not against change just want it sooner than later and certainly dont wnat to have families spending money on nothing in the end.. just thinking out loud here..whats the point of keeping nbl tracks the way they are? this is a real question not being sarcastic?

we have alot of decent tracks here in the north east that im sure the aba would consider hosting nationals, however that decision is made i dont know..

it reminds me of a person going through a divorce... and one of the parties dosnt cooperate in mediation, misses court dates, dosnt respond to paperwork, and the whole mess drags on for years and the kids suffer in the end. why not just get on with your life as a single person and start fresh? you know in the end you will be divorced so why prolong suffering?

jmo- just trying to minimize the $ lost already i guess...
FaithBMX
I think Gary Aragon was brought in to be the scapegoat/fall guy.
That way nobody has to be mad at one of our "own" BMX brothers.
That plane was crashing regardless of what Aragon did or didn't do.

What I would like to see is the local track sell a package deal.
Each track could make the package whatever they wanted to make it.
Let's say that the package is $200 and that gets the new rider a USABMX membership, one weekly coaching session, and 10 races. It would be transparent to the new member; they won't really know where each dollar is being allocated to; other than the fact that they'll get a membership card in the mail. The track pays for the membership, their share of the ten races, and something for the local coach who does the training; and pockets the rest for themselves or the track. They could offer different packages at different price points which included a different number of races included, a jersey, t-shirt, numberplate, whatever.
This still gives those parents a packaged deal like they are used to with other sports, but doesn't bankrupt the track or the sanction.

You could even break it down into seasons (calendar quarters). While the membership is obviously good for a year, the coaching and "free" races could be set into a three month period or six month period; whatever works. Non-BMXers don't necessarily get the concept of a 12 month season and are obviously willing to pay for shorter concentrated "seasons".
After the term of the deal has expired the rider will still have their annual membership and could just start paying race by race or they could sign up for another term. If the coaching was well structured then the riders could stay in the program up into the expert ranks.

A brand new rider doesn't even really need to go to other tracks. Their focus should be on learning the fundamentals at their local track. Providing weekly coaching will provide that foundation. Classes could also be taught to the parents about basic race fundamentals, basic bike knowledge and mechanics, race day nutrition, whatever. Get the local bike shops back involved with the local tracks. I'm willing to bet that the local bike shop would provide a mechanic for free to teach a class if they were allowed to hand out shop flyers or discount coupons.
I want to see local track loyalty. Growing up I was super proud to be from Southwest Supercross and we had a rivalry going with Armadillo Downs and the other local tracks. Locals should be fiercely loyal and want to be at the track everytime the gates are open. Give them a reason to! Make the local track the center of their social life not just a dusty field.
bmxundergrounddotcom
If Aragon was the fall guy, then that's even worse.

I will definitely be looking at some sort of membership structure for 2012. One of the big moves that allows us to function is eliminating the trophies at every race. As a teacher I have a big issue with rewarding a child every time they race as it is.

This season we are scheduled to have trophy races every 3 weeks or so, for a cimbined 8 nights this season. I think the one season pass for locals is the best idea in BMX. It just has to be properly executed. Perhaps it can only apply to a single track. That might create problems in areas where there are more than one track close by, but I'm sure someone can iron out the details.

When trophies come out of the program, local BMX racing gets a lot more affordable. If you have a 50 rider local base, then you are talking about $1.50 in costs to the sanction. In our case, our concession and fundraising efforts more than cover the cost of running our track for the year - roughly $2000. So we could in theory be racing for about $3-4 per race.
tommydone
QUOTE (bmxundergrounddotcom @ May 19 2011, 07:51 AM) *
If Aragon was the fall guy, then that's even worse.

I will definitely be looking at some sort of membership structure for 2012. One of the big moves that allows us to function is eliminating the trophies at every race. As a teacher I have a big issue with rewarding a child every time they race as it is.

This season we are scheduled to have trophy races every 3 weeks or so, for a cimbined 8 nights this season. I think the one season pass for locals is the best idea in BMX. It just has to be properly executed. Perhaps it can only apply to a single track. That might create problems in areas where there are more than one track close by, but I'm sure someone can iron out the details.

When trophies come out of the program, local BMX racing gets a lot more affordable. If you have a 50 rider local base, then you are talking about $1.50 in costs to the sanction. In our case, our concession and fundraising efforts more than cover the cost of running our track for the year - roughly $2000. So we could in theory be racing for about $3-4 per race.

did you forget what it is like to be a kid? take trophies out and you just lost any kid under 9 . now giving national plates should be a NAG deal . when my son first started racing he got a trophy every week and he couldnt be prouder of himself, then I just made the deal with him that he only gets a trophy if he wins , there were a couple of races where he really busted his a$$ and came in second and I surprised him with a trophy for his effort. as much as I love BMX this is a kids sport , lets not forget what it is like to be a kid.
FaithBMX
Here in England, at least in the North Region, we don't even have trophies at a regional level race much less local/club races. I raced the whole Summer series in 2009, ended up second overall in 40+ cruiser, and got a 1' tall trophy at the end of the series.
You know what? I love that little trophy! It sits on my shelf with the #2 plate strapped to it and I'm super proud of it.
I agree that the whole "big trophy" every time you race thing is overkill and just fuels the immediate gratification movement that has taken over our nation.
It's the same mentality that brought us National #1 Rookies.
tommydone
national#! rookies are a bad idea
The5thUltra
QUOTE (crash813 @ May 17 2011, 10:11 PM) *
Yall just sound like a bunch of whiney lil b!tch3s. Look, the nbl is broke and would of landed on its face if not for the aba. You took a bad bet on a lame horse. Think of this as a life lesson and move on.




That pretty much sums it up!! cool.gif
Brett Middaugh
QUOTE
national#! rookies are a bad idea


QUOTE
It's the same mentality that brought us National #1 Rookies.


"Bob if you give national numbers to beginners you're going to kill the sport. The kids will have no heroes to look up to."
Carol Gleason, years ago in response to Bob telling her, the plan. (The Gleasons own the land that CJBMX , Howell, NJ, sits on.)

People have to remember that while the aba was being slowly taken over by riders, the nbl has always been run by parents of riders who were, rightly so, thinking about how to make BMX better for their kid. Their individual kid, not how to make BMX racing the sport better, but just to make it better for a kid to win.
Hence the day back in the early 80's when it was decided that motos would be pointed more than mains because, "well my kid always does better in the motos then the main".

It's not hating, it's just two different philosophies. One favors the sport of BMX racing in its entirety, the other a kids ability to win.
BMX racing, just like BMX freestyle is best run by people who know and understand it from a riding perspective.
Hence the aba doing well over the years even with less riders involved in racing and the nbl...not so good.

A lot of these mistakes were recently corrected by the nbl, but as we are now seeing, over the years when you keep making poor decisions, time catches up.
Sort of a bummer, 'cause I started with BMX in '79 on an nbl track in Flemington.
sxebmx
QUOTE (bmxundergrounddotcom @ May 19 2011, 07:51 AM) *
. I think the one season pass for locals is the best idea in BMX. It just has to be properly executed. Perhaps it can only apply to a single track. That might create problems in areas where there are more than one track close by, but I'm sure someone can iron out the details.



Hey Nick,
I've been following alone on your board with everything going on because it's nice to see everything from a grassroots point of view without a thousand people chiming in. You make alot of good points and have your heart in the right place for sure. What is to actually stop a track from saying "pay $xxx and race locals at OUR track all year for nothing more"? Beyond that, you could also offer locals at a race by race price for people from out of town, or the casual racer. That way, you could please the new comers, and people who are going to be there every week, as well as set up a budget for every weeks race(maybe only race once a week instead of twice so you don't have to pay sanction fees twice, and hold a free practice night and charge $3-5 for people who didn't sign up for the AYCR(all you can ride). I'm not involved with a track at all, so I don't know if this is actually something that is feasible, but if skateparks and places like that can offer it, surely you could make it work too.
Just a thought.
svtfmook
after all this, i think i'm most upset about the fact that i just got an NBL silly band and now it means nothing.
DaWump
I wonder if those "WE" buttons I still have left are worth anything on ebay?
bdine
QUOTE (woodybmx86 @ May 18 2011, 12:20 PM) *
Im kinda liking the vibe that's coming across... YOu coulda just NOT raced. all well and fine to say, you could have raced ABA, IF that was a valid argument in the state you lived in... for most, that was not. Shoot, I've got 3 ABA tracks withing 4 hours of me. Closest one is hour and half. I dont race locals for years... so I coulda raced ABA. THis year, first year the schedule was good for it. Every other year that can think of... hitting an ABA national series would end up costing me double than the NBL one. I have even posted on here proposed seasons, and mileage and cost.... one of those chart things.

In the end... the reason most people bought the package, is because they wanted to race. gettin on here and saying, you coulda NOT raced is just rude, and uninformed. Especially when good, solid people believed the plan would work. Shoot, GA still thinks it would have worked, or was working. I dont know.


Maybe GA needs to, "Burn the Road Up!" I have learned overtime that a good leader, leads from the front as well as the rear. Not just show up at two or three Nationals and see you next year. Also where did the money go for this years membership contracts. Eventually it will have to come out in the end like everything else in life. The NBL does not need politics ruining a great sport.
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