So, since the thread won't die, I want in.

A quesiton I have is, are the insurance policies based on the number of riders covered? If so, the perceived cost of said policy would change if the two sanctions were combined as the number of members would grow. True, some riders hold dual cards, but a lot (most?) don't. So the membership numbers would change dramitically and one would assume the cost of the policy woudl change drastically too.

Mike, that is one of the pillars of the one sanction theory. They say the cost of an insurance policy would be virtually the same that one sanction pays now.

It's funny how you misspelled it.

I agree 100% except with the downsizing of the operating area then expanding to the center of the country later deal. Let the NBL be an east of the Mississippi River sanction.

Regroup with more positive forward thinking people leading the way. Rethink the now. Rebuild with a better product. Prosper.

2007 Federal 990 form - $239,289

Click to view attachment

Seems that 200k was a pretty solid number...

Brian

Thanks Knothead. That helps, but still looking for The ABA Insurance cost and at least one if not two No-crap quote/s that would show the cost would not inflate or iflated cost is marginal at best under a new policy with combined assets.

Interesting

under membership services can anyone who knows taxes confirm that this is memberships received for the year?

If so, that's only 9,143 riders registered in 2007 less than I expected, especially considering the dual license holders for cruiser/class

I wonder what percentage comes from Florida?

-G

That is interesing because if that's true, I seem to remember hearing the numbers last year at 12K+ Which would mean that while everyone has been taughting that members are Jumping ship, they in actuality saw a 25% increase....I can't find the post, but it was in last year's "Sinking ship" Thread/s I think knothead brought those figures to the table too.

Not claiming to be right, just sits in my memory that way.

Riddler in all fairness I would asign a +/- factor to any of these numbers we see unless someone has dug up the 2008 return then I believe it

so if you have heard 12K and this shows 9K then 10.5K +/- 1.5K is probably realistic

I doubt membership numbers are up, thats my gut feeling

-G

Those numbers are expenses, not income.

With pizzas, just about every consumer has a real choice. Because there are several different pizza places within 5 miles of their house, or will deliver to them.

But with BMX, having 2 sanctions doesn't increase the "choices" at all for 95% of BMX'ers.

For that to happen, you'd have to have an NBL and an ABA track roughly the same distance from your house, so you can make a realistic choice. That would describe almost no location in the US. Despite there being 2 sanctions, the vast majority of BMX riders (the average of which would be what, an 8 Intermediate) have no real choice at all. They spend their 2.5 years in the sport riding whatever sanction their local track is.

But at the end of the day, I think "1 sanction v. 2 sanctions" makes no significant difference at all.

BMX is a sport of limited appeal, and always will be. As a sport that will never be played in high schools, will never be a scholarship sport, and will never have highly paid, highly visible pros, it is never going to have high levels of participation, like basketball, baseball or football.

On the other hand, it is a fun sport/hobby that I think will never completely go away.

I don't think the level of participation would change significantly whether there was one sanction or two sanctions. There may be some marginal change, but that's it. A lot of the "1 v. 2" argument is premised on the thought that if one side prevails, BMX will grow significantly. I don't see that being the case.

Here's the numbers from just the 2008 aba grands:

This does not include any pro riders.

Membership fees: $94,140 (2092 riders x $45)

Entry Fees: $94,140 (2092 riders x $45)

Open Classes: $18,480 (528 riders x $35)


Total for just 1 race: $206,760

My math could very well be off somewhat so let the flames begin.

I wasn't talking about the one from this thread a few posts back...but perhaps you aren't either. What I do know and like is that you usually try to bring numbers and facts like that.

I would say that is fair and really the smartest approach...I too would have a hard time beieving that numbers are up right now.

I'm told it's a flat rate and not affected by head count, which is why both sanctions pay about the same. So no, insurance cost remains static. I see to recall it has to do with the number of events.

We had a thread on this a while back, a couple of months or so, and somebody had the breakdown.

...but it has just as much cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese!!!

Riddler is correct on the 12k i remember reading the same thread dont know where but i do remember it

Well the actural Pizza is but the way your are treated and how good the service isn't. Which Is why somebody might like one place over the other...

xenephobia
Chances are Elvis that I have raced far more ABA than you have raced NBL.....no fear here, I just know what I like.

Is the little bit of insurance the only real strong hold here? Honestly what's a really low six figure to any corporation?

In a perfect BMX World I would love to see the NBL continue to run their Regional series (lets face it, that's what it is) but have the ABA run the series. They have the resources to take it to the next level not to mention they could leverage the insurance cost and the internal office affairs.

Everyone complains about Schmick, the guy had some good ideas and called it like it truly is. Although I didn't and won't always agree with his language and the way he presented them the fact remains the NBL has positioned themselves to be Regional (nothing wrong with that) while the ABA has positioned themselves to be The American National Sanctioning Body. I think if people would just quit getting emotional over that fact we could all move forward. NBL combining with the ABA to truly make a series would be a good thing and with the ABA's resources BMX could be presented as one sanction and get the outside sponsors we need to take it to the next level. What has the NBL brought into the picture for sponsors outside of BMX sponsors in the past 5-10 years? The ABA gets it. NBL needs to embrace this and let the ABA lead the way instead of getting in the way.

A true National Series means traveling and that also means traveling in airplanes if you want to get out of your regional series. The problem with the NBL trying to run a national series that is in all actuality regional is the NBL trying to package what they call a national series into the Midwest and East during the summer. Cut back on the nationals and run a regional series that co-exist with the ABA to make a true national championship in Oklahoma yearly. Having too many nationals in a regional series like the NBL series does not allow the local tracks to flourish in the midwest and the east where we can't BMX all year long. Our season is short and currently we are splitting time with a state series, regional and national series for the NBL. Guess what? Summers gone before we know it and we haven't held but a few local races so there is no new riders as the local NBL tracks don't race every weekend because of the *regional* schedule.

I think very few follow sanctioning bodies outside of the USA but if you look at how healthy some of them are (The UK as an example) they have one sanctioning body they follow, they are growing by leaps and bounds as is Australia and New Zealand.

I really don't get the emotion behind making this decision if you love the sport.

On an outside note what ever became of the "WE" group? It's been almost a year and I still don't see a healthy NBL emerging.

Nice post D.

So, I'm thinking, maybe we're looking at this all wrong. It's not what's wrong, what's different, what's in conflict. It's what's right, what's shared and what's in commonality.

I know I let myself slip into the "your sanction sucks mode," and maybe others in this thread have as well. I regret it, as it keeps anything useful from happening. That's not productive and counter to the goals of a growth strategy for the sport. It's not the exclusion, it's the inclusion, in other words.

/joke
For example, some of y'all are idiots. There should be room for idiots in this brighter tomorrow.
/joke

But seriously folks: It's not what's wrong, it's what can be more right. It's not like we're that far apart on anything, after all. And with that, I'm thinking the conflict in this thing is the less positive don't see a compelling reason to/for change. (Which, I'll admit, is befuddling given the numbers.)

I'm just throwing it out there, it's not like teh Internets is a good place to work out the details of something like this after all. It takes adults face-to-face to get into the hard issues we keep bringing up.

But look, we're all BMX. BMX isn't that different regardless of whose database it's on. I'm saying there's more common than uncommon ground, yes?

I can't find a resource on it . What country has the most riders?



edit counrty

You now have it E. Now we just need to bring the two together. It will never happen though, we all know it won't. Personally I have been in this sport too long and the two sides talk but nothing ever gets resolved. One or the other sides need to just die. I'm going with the NBL going away due to the fact of the turnmoil and the "WE" group getting no where in a year. NBL is now owing a lot of money and running on emotion which is never good for any of us. If it was the other way around I would be saying the same about the ABA.

Run the US sanctioning body with individual regional series powered by the ABA. Bring in outside sponsors and make one national championship in the center of the USA.

I can dream can't I?

Elvis,
I know people get all upset with emotion on your posts. I completly get you and I believe most do understand where your coming from but when emotion plays into it along with BMX becoming a union as was stated in an earlier post people get scared of the unknown and that's a shame. With this mentality BMX will always be a competitor of BMX and it shouldn't be that way. Open your minds people about what BMX could truly be. We have been doing this two sanction thing since the begining and we still don't see BMX at the level it should be after 30 years. Is it really that hard to see what could be?

Thanks buddy!

I think it can happen; we're good people, capable of good things, and we wouldn't have this passion in debate if we didn't care so deeply for BMX. As long as everyone's in it for the BMX it'll be okay.

My home track is an ABA track and i would say the best track in the U.S. period. I enjoy the NBL circuit for distance reasons and so forth. Healthy comp. is great. WHy play follow the leader.You can complain all you want but the nbl is not going under. Anyone got country stats yet?


country again......

(Edited for typo's)

The US has the most rider count. No question about that. Ever been to any World Championship?

Healthy competion is not good. There is nothing healthy about the ABA and NBL competiting. BMX should not be competing against BMX the sport is not big enough to be competing against eachother at this point. BMX could do this in the 80's when both sanctions were pulling healthy numbers locally and nationally but that day has come and gone and now there is no way sanctioning bodies should compete against eachother for a small piece of a pie in the same country.

I guess it's all what you want out of the sport. Do you like choices or do you want to see the sport blow up? I know what I want.

I think most people like seeing BMX compete against eachother, they just lable it under healthy competiton or keeping the other sanction in check. Personally I hate this, I want it to grow and see high numbers at a local level.
I want the healthy sport I grew up with x 1000 we will never get there until BMX stops competing against BMX.

Holy crap. Let's just end this insanity. How many frigging threads do we need on this topic.

What, we ran out of clips vs flats debates?

I remember back in the late 70's and early 80's a couple years the NBL was the dominant one, then it would switch the the ABA for a couple years. Am I happy with the current state of the NBL. Hell no.

The problem now is discussions like the one we are having right now. And the availability to rumor monger instantly through the internet. Sometimes too much info is a bad thing. Everyone wants to be "the one" that breaks the big story. So they throw crap against the wall and see what sticks.

Bunch of middle aged wannabees or neverwas' Have any of you idiots thought that maybe you are the problem with this entire debate? All this grand pontificating, and ZERO results. It's like listening to C-Span

I have kept up with the worlds and such the past few years but not steadily for each and every class. We did get 50% of the medals in the Olympics and all were past Champions.A monopoly in any situation isn't good in my opinion.

Okay, so, you don't want the NBL to stay...what about those who don't want the ABA to stay? The fact is why should anyone in the NBL say "okay let's do this"? Because in all honesty your telling them to kill something they like just because you don't...and what does that get them? In bed with/at races with a bunch of imposing people who want to exercise total control of their sport?

As it exists now they can go to NBL races while you go to ABA races and they have fun without listening to you talk bad about the NBL. Meanwhile you don't have to see a bunch of NiBbLers doing what they do and you can still come on Vintage and say the NBL can needs to go away because a low 6-digit annual figure for insurance is the holygrail of BMX growth , fame and fortune...in all honesty that type of streamlining sounds more like the sport is dying..."DON"T GO INTO THE LIGHT BMX!!!" "Let's cut off a Leg so the heart gets more blood flow".

Yeah, I guess you're right E, I'll take the status-quo, I'll still race both sanctions. Blowing up bmx isn't what its all cracked up to be if it means people are taking sides while one side thinks its okay to impose its will on the other side, take their resources and say this type of theft is okay. And the other side has to think, "do I really want to race both sanctions? Those ABA folks are pretty fascist and will imposing".

Look, if you don't like the NBL vote with your feet, smoke cigarettes and talk bad about a sanction you hate on Vintage....otherwise this is all just internets tough guy play anyway.

EDIT: Reason for edit; say something that matches what the thread is really about. "SCHMICK".

Merideth,
I thought you already deleted me. It's funny that you think I'm on the board at Waterford. Hmmm I don't think so. I support the track and go to the board meetings but if you go to Waterford's website you will see I clearly do not hold a board seat. But you being you wouldn't bother to check out the facts now would you?

Keep speaking out of your arse, your comments make me laugh as you know nothing about what's going on here in Michigan nor at the National BMX Hall of Fame (yeah I'm digging up the past) but you did choose to engage me with your nonsense, keep digging.

By the way your getting emotional again.

Edited for typo's

girl fight girl fight girl fight

I want someone to take the reigns, it could just as easily be the NBL. The sport is not growing due to BMX competing against BMX. The ABA is doing things much better. That's a fact. Although I don't agree with all the things the ABA does they are little and easily overcome. The NBL on the other hand is clearly not in a good position right now. We keep waiting for the "We" group to emerge and for the NBL to be a healthy NBL but that isn't happening after a year. How long must we wait as the sport keeps shrinking and the Midwest and East suffers locally from a regional series with too many races in one area? Again I want to grow locally and I can only speak for Waterford but there are so many races during the summer at our backdoor with the NBL we can now race only on Wednesday to give new riders a week day race they can count on being their week after week due to the small weekend schedule we are left with during the summer months.

I stand by my decision. Many on here said it a year back during the "We" brigade. If your not happy with the product choose to spend your money else where. I choose to spend my money else where but will still support my local track with practice, clinics and a big 35th anniversary party. That money doesn't go to the NBL and their goofy law suits.



Funny I know, I find it humorous too. Let's just say Miss Merideth and I don't see eye to eye on things.

Did anyone ever think that the sport isn't growing beccause of threads like this? When my son first got into this a couple years ago. This was the first site I found. I asked a few noob questions. And was berated for not knowing or not finding the info myself. Nice welcome, huh?
So suppose another noob parent comes on here. Asking for info. Or just poking through the topics. And comes across thread after thread of adults pissing and moaning about how this sucks and that sucks. It may very well point that potential new family of riders to Pee Wee football instead. These endless arguments of the same topic are what's killing the sport. And you have noone to blame but yourselves.

I have often thought about this and you could be very well true. The hard thing is we are all passionate about our sport and want the best for it. Quite a few of us have been in the sport since the 80's so we all think we are more educated.

Who knows, I was just posting up what I would like to see as my dream for the sport in the USA. I think much of these conversations are unhealthy but we are all attracted to them like a moth to the flame.

Maybe we all care to much.

I guess that's the last I have to say about it.

Have a great evening everyone!

I have been around BMX racing since the mid 1970s and I cannot remember a time that NBL was the dominant sanction. Seriously, in many of these NBL v ABA debates, many of the NBL faithful toss this around as fact. The only times I really did not pay attention to BMX racing was in the very early 1990s when I was driving race cars, raising my young kids and working non-stop in my business. Honestly, did I miss something back then?

No, I didn't delete you. I defriended you. (It's the same only different.)

So anyways: I followed the trail of pork rinds back to a post you made regarding the NBL/SSA legal bills, and yes, you are right: you didn't say you are on the board of the track that you don't pay sanctioning fees to ride on. You said that you attend the board meetings. How nice that they let in non-members who aren't on the Board. I do apologize for jumping to that conclusion; I guess I was just a little bit surprised to hear that you will support the track (and that's great; love you to bits for doing that) and will whine and mewl online regarding their sanctioning body. I sure hope you don't do the same when you head on into those board meetings. That would be counterproductive, as we all know.

Oh, and hey, just a suggestion: put down the Cheeto's and type with both hands. You are consistent in your negativity and your spelling and grammar errors. How many times do I have to see 'your' in place of 'you're' in one day, huh?

We all know 'your' smarter than that.

Remember: Cheetos down when ya type.

In my little world of NY it was only NBL. The ABA wasn't really up in this area that I know of. So, to me anyhow the NBL was the dominant force in my corner of the world. I wasn't fortunate enough to have the parental support that most of you may have had. So my traveling was very limited.

+1 and you are probably right Airport FF. Imagine this thread on coming up on a search engine.

Sorry you were treated so badly when you first came onto the site. You must of reeked of that noob suck stench. J/k Bro.

I still do It's no big deal. Water under the bridge. But I can only imagine what some people may think when they read this stuff.

Ken,
Back in the early 80's the ABA went though chapter 11. I would say at that time the NBL was the more dominant, at least they were here in the midwest although the ABA and NBL national numbers were about the same. I'm sure in Oregon you saw it differently. Right about the time the ABA filed Chapter 11 Michigan swapped to an NBL state after being ABA for many years (Todd Kingsbury founding state and all) at that time Lorie Burnette went to work for the NBL. I sure wish we could have the same NBL we had back then. I'm all for a healthy NBL again but I don't see that with the current board. Many of whom do not have kids in the sport any more.

Merideth,
Thanks for pointing that out. Keep digging. You are also pretty consistant in not knowing the facts as you proved once again. Why are you so intrigued about what I have to say? Afterall you said yourself you had to go back to past threads I posted about to realize I said nothing like you protrayed me to have said. Do yourself a favor if your continuing to get worked up about what I say and delete aka befriend me on here too. Oh and have a great life.

Who's taking the bets on the Deanna vs. Meredith gruge race?

Brian

mmmmmm, cheetos!!!

Have you ever read the Dan's site or Transworld? They are 10 times worse. I could not imagine sending my kid to a skatepark after reading the stuff on those sites. Way worse with the comments but yet the world of underground dirt jumps and skateparks keep building. Just waiting now for Brett to come on board and say something about his freestyler's

We are all passionate, that'sa good thing. I know people get tired of the debate but I truly believe it's better to be passionate and care about the direction of our sport than to not care at all.

While I am not to big on my NBL history, does it seem since they bought themselves from USAC that is seems things have been going downhill for them? And it really seem to shake the earth they stood on when USAC yanked the Olympic rug out from under them..

I don't know, but that seems to be the case...

Brian

She's older and I don't race NBL Brian. Besides she's too worried about me taking her out. Me being the dirty rider that I am and all that.



Only you Snackbar, Only you.

It's great to be passionate about something. But thumping your chest on an internet message board accomplishes nothing. I'm just as guilty as any one of you. But put your passion where it could best be used. Make the changes you want to see. Or at least try to make them. Sitting on Vintage and whining about it does nothing but chase away potential new customers.