Greg, isn't this where Mike said this thread would go?

Dogging Troy Lee Designs for making uniforms over seas is not irrelevant either is it? No you did not post it both another did.

Is it that really a big deal to you that Jeremy was selcted? I think your missing the point with what Shannon is trying to convey to you. Jermey is one of the most notable in MX. If it were not for him my kids prob would not be in BMX.

I felt BMX was a much safer sport and less expenssive to support, thus allowing me to sell my kids. His spectrum reached many many kids. Isnt this sport about the kids of the future? If it were up to me I would have nominated Travis Pastrani. However, Jeremy did race BMX and his talents, leadership and influence did lead to the recent influx of kids transitioning to BMX.

You should be thanking him. I would be shocked to hear if any kid (little kid) knows who Greg Hill is. However, I bet they know Jeremy. Sorry but its the truth Greg.

I believe if you go to the ABA site it will explain the history of BMX which was started by.......Hmmmm I just mentioned how my kids got into it. Perhaps that is how you go t into it? That is what ABA is trying to tell all.

As far as voting, you ought to research much on past threads as you will see I did not agree either. RESEARCH!!
I am just really shocked to see someone whom influened me soo much as a kid, act as they are acting and wanting to give up there award over a comitee vote! Nice

Thanks you were my idol in the day and still am. This will not change my opinion (well not that much).

Jeremy is MANY kids idol today


David

HOF ( for Racers) should be about what you did on the track when you raced........No HOF welfare ...........point blank......................I'm with Greg 100%..............................By the way Pete Rose should be in the BB HOF........................Make up for the wrong done to the ladies of the sport and fast track some in..............We all have moms and what would they think of us for not doing so.................I'm out BigJeff

The following questions were not asked of me, so i apoligize for stepping in and answering them. I Just find the angle and tone of this rant to be very offensive, as a result, I have opened up my mouth out of turn.


[color="#0000FF"]Greg, isn't this where Mike said this thread would go?

Dogging Troy Lee Designs for making uniforms over seas is not irrelevant either is it? No you did not post it both another did.
Interesting approach to correct Greg for something someone else said. I think Greg's point in the thread being left open was so that the dicussion may continue and not be censored because of disagreement. With rational and respectful discussion (even if it includes the passion of personal involvement with out the use of prosiac) Those who make hof decisions will have a few more bits of relavant info to consider. If a person can get over his ego, constructive critiscism can be a good thing.
Is it that really a big deal to you that Jeremy was selcted? I think your missing the point with what Shannon is trying to convey to you. Jermey is one of the most notable in MX. If it were not for him my kids prob would not be in BMX.
I personally think it was a very poor decision to induct a person based on popularity gained in another sport. I believe HOF riders should be selected based not on good performance, but on dominating performance over a number of years as it is in pro football and other sports.


You should be thanking him. I would be shocked to hear if any kid (little kid) knows who Greg Hill is. However, I bet they know Jeremy. Sorry but its the truth Greg.

I'm pretty sure most of us on this site find it rediculous for you to be dissing Greg Hill in this way.

Mx Mug

It's a shame the ABA can't come up with a better marketing plan than watering down the accomplishments of previous inductees by pretending 'exposure' as a result of your puff piece inductee. A better place for your 'marketing' props would be to create a separate category of 'Special Recognition' or something like that. It doesn't sound like the resident members of the HoF need this added exposure you so tactfully refer to above; it sounds more like the ABA needs a cheap marketing ploy at the expense of honoring real racers and real industry vets that helped to build the industry.

Another question for the ABA: does this Jeremy guy know the real reason behind you giving him a place in the HoF? Did you tell HIM it's 'a fundraiser!' as well as 'marketing 101'?? Because if you have, and he's okay with it, that doesn't say much about the character of either party with regard to this whole thing.

You can polish a t**d and it's still gonna be a t**d, marketing ploy or not.

We're running out of pioneers.

What!?! Really!? All this time I thought...Wow!:blush:Man, someone should do a poll of how many people in BMX that share a last name that AREN'T related! I should've know better with all the Griggs, Andersons, Pattersons, Ellis, Matthews, Davises, Hendersons all running around. In my defense "Tedesco" is a pretty unusual last name I believed and they are the right age in relation to one another to be father and daughter, I think, but still I shouldn't had assumed! Maybe one of their mutual ancestors fell of the boat coming over and they don't know....

Now that I disagree with. If you spent most of one's career in on sanctioning body and did very well, winning multiple titles then you should be in the hall, unless you want the Hall to be sanctioning body centric. Otherwise this is about who did well in BMX regardless of sanction. It seems mean spirited otherwise. Anyway, if the new National Hall of Fame is to claim to be representative of all BMX-certainly North American BMX-then it cannot be that parochial anymore. And even if it was when it was just the ABA Hall of Fame then to me it still sucks that some BMX talent-mostly women but some guys like Terry Tenette-got the short shrift. What's is the reason Steve Veltman not being in? That until recently he still raced the Veteran's pro class? And yes most of those who raced NBL are in the hall but as you imply most top racers raced both (or depending on the era, three or more) sanctions and did very well in both so that is incidental. Most of those who aren't in the HoF who are Old School tend to be mostly near NBL exclusive in their racing at it was wrong IMHO to extend the inter sanctioning body rivalry to the Hall unless it was specifically mentioned openly that the ABA HoF was for those who raced mostly ABA.

I think a lot of it is ignorance do to the lack of past publicity. I wonder how many people among the voting BMX public that aren't among the more notable people in BMX even knew about Ms. Schachel or Ms. Bayhi? or more recently Ms. Cairns? Now I am not saying that the girls in their time should've had totally equal coverage during that era (the girls classes were less spectacular than the boys and the girls were only something like 3 or 4% of the racers) but I do think the lack of fairer coverage has had a trickle down effect and people who were ignorant of the girls accomplishments then are still are now. Fortunately the BMX media coverage of the last ten years of female racing is much better and will make it so that the present crop of girls won't be overlooked when Reade, Daniels, Post, Hayashi, Martian, etc are up for consideration.

That depended I guess on what her sponsor, Shimano, wanted to do. Her region was mostly NBL at the time. IIRC the ABA didn't start to make inroads there in the Northeast, including her home state of New Jersey until 1980. So some brand loyalty may be there, (She did race ABA at Braddock in NJ sometimes, I know that for a first hand fact and I heard she raced at Deptford, NJ which was ABA in 1982). She was doing so well in the NBL being essentially No.1 Girl there three years in a row (being in the oldest female age division but getting the most points of any NBL female regardless of age class IIRC). Then she lost her Shimano sponsorship in mid 1983 and didn't race nationally for most of 1984, I think in part due to injury. By the time she turned pro in 1985 she was with GHP (I think) which had limited resources by then and after that a few bike shop sponsors (I think. Records i.e. magazine mentions are sketchy) and, of course, only the NBL had a functioning pro class and the ABA didn't allow NBL Pro girls to race. Still it sucks she hasn't been recognized and even if she did stick with only one sanctioning body for the most part, she was facing mostly the same competition who did race ABA IIRC. Anyway, being one of the BMX elite, you can call her up and ask. (I would like to see another interview Gary Haselhorst did one about a year ago but it it lacked detail like how she got started and things like that).

You know, it never occurred to me that the last several inductees have been Redline alumni. I had no idea about the mass marketing push done by Redline until Greg Hill mentioned it here. Yes, I agree campaigning by major institutions in BMX does dilute the honor which should be induction. It drowns out deserving racers that don't have a bandwagon either grassroots or company inspired to rouse the public. It would be like the Yankees campaigning to the Baseball Hall to induct Bucky Dent, a good shortstop and popular Yankee from the late 1970's but not necessarily HoF material. One more reason to be against public voting. This is why I lean so much on stats as a requirement to get in. I was criticized for it but this is what happens when you don't rely on objective hard things like how the racer did on the track. Maybe that is why Veltman still isn't in, or Judge. If Hutch BMX had survived up to this day and was as powerful as Redline they would had been in a long time ago.

I am more than willing to give them a chance and wish them success. I hope my criticisms are constructive. They are certainly not mean spirited. I want a professionally run HoF just like everyone else which would indeed make it even more of a major accomplishment. One suggestion. Make eligibility for consideration for the Hall like three or four years after their last top amateur/Pro/Elite season (if they are racing Vet pro or reclassified Am that would be no hindrance in consideration for the Hall)-if something like that isn't on the books already.

Man, Cathy Tedesco isn't related to Bob?

Oldtimer1980s

Disagree, Cash Matthews was the one mostly responsible for starting BMX in Oklahoma along with his brother Cary and his friends Mark Carlton and Matt Rymer. THAT is a HUGE contribution to the sport. And it isn't his "fault" that he was in an era where few national titles if any existed. Hell, he got the NBA to sanction one of the first nationals in July 1976. As I said racers of that era (the early to late 1970s) can be judged on how they did at track series and since BMX was so small and disconnected at the time those California (and Oklahoma and New Jersey and Florida) track series like The 1975 Western Sports Arama series in California can be counted on the same level as nationals, proportionally speaking. Danny Oakley, newly inducted in to the Hall of Fame, won many of those (he also has an NPSA No.1 but I don't know what year).

If anything Cash Matthews got in a "bit" late. The same for Charlie Litsky and Sal Zeuner Jr (for starting BMX in New Jersey) and the Essers in Florida.

Oh and no, it is not wrong to point out who you think is more deserving to be in the Hall, just as long as there are things to back it up with and it is not mean spirited.

Oldtimer1980s

Seems to me that there will be many people in the HOF for many different reasons. So it should be very clear that they convey why or how they got in. A non BMXer should be able to go to the HOF and and understand the difference between a great champion, and someone who has contributed to the sport in other facets, IE promoting, organizing, running, advancing, growing the sport. MC should not be confused with those who through competition has achieved greatness. Yes for us that are in it we know, but how is this viewed by an outsider. It must be made very clear so it does not tarnish the accomplishments of people like Greg, or Stu, and Harry. Howard Cosell contributed a lot to the NFL, but may not have been athletic and we all what his place is.

Changstar

I don't like this marketing thing either, While I am sure Major League Baseball used the Baseball HoF in Cooperstown, New York as part of their marketing campaign as a whole, I don't think they have included anyone in it that don't have the stats or constructive effect on Baseball to justify it. Couldn't Jeremy McGrath be used as a marketing tool without having him in the HoF even in only a honorary capacity?

Anyway The NBL version is far smaller than the formerly named ABA HoF. and it has very few people in it. The last inductees were Greg Esser, Kathy Schachel and Stu Thomsen and a NBL track volunteer Alice Bixler and a Linda Dorsey; all almost exactly a year ago. In February 2009 a Gary Smith a past NBL Board of Director and President was inducted.

The thing is they don't update it like the ABA does so only George Esser (father of Greg, and I KNOW they are father and son..inside joke) and Bob Tedesco are listed. In any event, as far as I know, there are only eight members in it and most of them are NBL officials of some sort.

http://www.nbl.org/hall-of-fame.html
http://www.nbl.org/NewsDetail.asp?ID=114
http://www.nbl.org/NewsDetail.asp?ID=166

I really don't know what the NBL is using its Hall for. It definitely not inducting racers on a regular basis No mention of any racers inducted this year. I have no data as to when it was started and there is no list of HoF members.

Oldtimer1980s

The ABA should be ashamed of themselves for such a move, no question Jeremy McGrath was a great superstar in his sport but to simply add his name to the HOF as a marketing tool is rediculous. Does Jeremy know he is only being honered as a pawn? is he now on the payrol for advertisement?


Leave the HOF for BMX movers and shakers, guys and girls that actually had an impact on the sport. Greg Hill is spot on with the subject, the ABA has now trivialized the lifetime achievements of the past inductee's.


That being said, if you want the name recognition then Jeremy belongs in an advertisement or a sidebar on a website for "Famous People that once raced BMX" and thats as far as it should have gone.

Mike

Are we there yet?

Mug that is not dissing. I for one am very upset as to how my hero is blowing this Jermy thing out of the water. Also why do it on this forum? If you do not want it aired out for all to view, then be ready for the critics.

Let it go guys.


If not be ready for the way people feel.

LOL Mike its does not look that way

But a nice healthy talk is great!

Lots of guys just finding the thread, but judging by the responses might be better to simply set up a poll.

I had a funny convo with Greg last night about this quote.....

Anyway, regarding women:

I think in future years you will see more ladies making it in. But (I Hope) it will be based on winning titles. I think names like Lilly, Hyashi (of course they both still race so it may be a while) should be in. I do not think many amatuer women (or boys for that matter) should find there way into the hall. I think Cheri Elliot was the one true icon for girls BMX BITD and surely deserves the sport. Otherwise, amatuers should be a rare exception. But (and it is unfortunate) the stars of the sport were all men BITD. Women are now getting their day in the sun (as professionals) and will eventually fill the spots in a hall of fame in future years.

Mike,

I feel ya wanting to shut down the thread. But it does bring into question the true motive. A few weeks ago you let the NBL jersey thread carry on for weeks with stupid stuff about the waffle house, etc. That thread grew to like 15 pages and the key points were all hashed out in the first two pages. This thread has really just taken off. Don't fear progress. Allow a bit more banter. Besides, why not let the customer decide when enough is enough. You know, when people quit posting, the thread dies on it's own as it drops back a few pages.
Honestly, this is the first "Curtain'ish" thing I have seen you post. You know I love you man, and appreciate your contributions to the sport (In fact, in about 10 years, I would support you being in the Hall), but killing this thread at this point will bring discredit to all the great work you have done to restore a sense of integrity to this site.

I definitely learned some things from that NBL thread. Being a moderator is a process where one is constantly learning. You really do develop a sense of how the community is going to "go" on certain things. As all of you can see, I did not enact the "lock clock" at 8PM last night, because there were some new things being discussed. The community does not benefit from threads being locked, and I almost never do it. I just cannot stand when threads careen off topic, or just become the same old thing being said over and over and over again.

I DO NOT/WILL NOT LOCK THREADS TO REGULATE COMMUNITY OPINION! When absolutely necessary, I lock them to preserve the integrity of the community, and prevent dilution of the views and opinions expressed by our members.

This is just a general response, not aimed solely at Bags.

Best,

M

You can vote here...

McGrath in HOF Poll

It's all good Mike. Thanks for the response.

Not sure how the display area is laid out at this new Hall of fame but the Hall of Fame should be dedicated to racers and only pros who sacrificed there time energy and bodies to suceed in the sport.

But if we bmxers have a building dedicated to housing our Hall of Fame there needs an area dedicated to the people and characters and celecbrities that made our sport what it is. This would be promoters, track operators, frame designers, announcers, amateurs and innovators if you will. These could be inductees into the BMX museum which is located with the Hall of fame. You could even let some of the vinatge builders have the honor of displaying their pride and joy vintage bikes there upon invitation. Say maybe the winners of rockford each year.

Heck if a non racer can get in I nominate the Yamaha Motobike and the guy on the cover of the first issue of BMX action (maybe hes already in not sure who he was but that cover shot was awesome). These things got me into BMX for sure.

BTW- There is a poll in the BMX Racing section thanks to my new hero Will Murray.

I couldn't disagree more Bags. I'm guessing you don't know your history that well. I will speak on behalf of the females and say many that are listed never had a pro class to race in. Are you aware that Cheri was part of that era without a pro class? If we had a pro class to race I'm sure all of us would have jumped on the bandwagon and met your critera for being in the Hall.

Perhaps a better closer example of the National BMX HoF process would be that of the US Olympic Hall of Fame:

"Nominees for the Class of 2009 were selected by a seven-person nominating committee
consisting of Olympians, members of the U.S. Olympic Hall of Fame, an NGB executive
director, and a USOC representative. Fan votes submitted at www.teamusa.org also
played an important role in the selection process, with more than 112,000 votes cast
during the voting period."

http://www.usolympicteam.com/halloffame

They also say it is the only national sports Hall of Fame that uses fan voting as part of the selection process. I still don't like it, but that is a accurate comparison.

No problem with that. The issue isn't how long ago the inductee is from and no one holds anything against Clayton John being in the Hall, he is in a different category, literally! It is how people are selected for racer in the Hall that is the controversy.

Again, what concerns people I feel is who gets in the racer (or freestyler) category. And again As I said before I can't take issue with some of those in the hall but again I won't mention names and it doesn't have to be a pro title, they could go in on the strength of amateur titles and pre national race series. So I am fine with guys like Kramer. Juarez and Henderson and Utterback are in, what's more they were nearly at the very beginning of the sport, and that is noteworthy in and of itself. Bob Haro almost founded another branch of BMX single handedly (I don't think he "Invented" freestyle, but he was the first to place it on exhibition I think) Juarez with Watson popularized pool BMX freestyle. Needless to say they well deserve to be in because they help build BMX in a tangible way even if they didn't have many or any titles; most listed did. As I said, how a racer builds the sport is important too for consideration so I have no personal problem with those on that list. It is just that a racer I think should have excelled on some level in the sport, like maybe how many races a racer had won in a year over several years. That could be a good measure of dominance, especially for those who raced in the 1970's when there were no national titles to be had.

Oh and a batter that can consistently hit .299 for 12 years straight IS Baseball Hall of Fame material depending on what position he played. A Short stop who hit .299 for life time never mind 12 straight years would be great for instance!

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml
(snip)

And no one has an issue with any of that. It is the racers, the players if you will on how they get in is what irks a lot of people, as some "obvious" racers with tons of titles are overlooked year after year, that should be, if you will allow a Baseball Hof analogy, "First Ballot" inductees, where are the mass mailings for them?

Again you think, it seems, that people are upset that those in the Industry are getting in. Not at all. I dare say, that most people aren't emotionally invested about that aspect of the Hall and don't care really that much. Industry vs track racing inductees is not the issue. No one begrudges say Chuck Robinson for being in under Industry. If he came in under the "racer" category then you wouldn't be able to sleep at night because your phone would be ringing so much! It is how the racers are selected is the issue. And now JM being put in albeit honorary and is openly stated that he is being used as a marketing tool. That has rub some people the wrong way. There are no honorary HoFer's in the American Baseball HoF (there are two in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame though).

As for Jack Buck and Ty Cobb, you've are using the "Industry"/"racer" mistake again. Jack Buck got props from Cooperstown, but he wasn't admitted in the HoF. Managers, umpires, executives, and pioneers are in but under their own categories. Broadcasters, which Jack Buck was, and writers aren't inducted in (Charlie Litsky wouldn't had been able to get in the BMX HoF if he was judged solely on his announcing career if BMX HoF had a similar rule). They are given Ford C. Frick Award and the J. G. Taylor Spink Award respectively. for there coverage of Baseball over a life time so I don't think Ty Cobb's legacy is an issue, nor is Stu Thomsen's legacy is diminished because Bob Osborne is in. I don't think anyone took that tack in argument.

Perhaps some of the confusion-and suspicion-could be resolved by telling us what is the criteria for BMX racers to be considered for nomination and then induction? The mass mailing by a big company stories and the marketing tool revelations didn't help people's confidence. Seriously, write it out as a separate post.

Oh and one more thing, those in past years who had the privilege of being asked to vote for the nominees by being sent a ballot and didn't vote has lost the right to Be-itch & Moan.

Oldtimer1980s.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: BMX's biggest enemy is BMXers.

We're people with a passion for the sport, and success driven (which drew us toward the sport), so we're the worst sort of people to debate with.

And with all that said: People who've had a positive impact on the sport deserve to be recognized. Period. The sport takes a crapton more than wheeling around a track quickly in order to happen.

I know, and I actively (and constantly) recruit people into the sport, and being able to invoke McGrath as getting his start in BMX has drawn more than a few Dad's into hauling their son out to the track. In fact it's a favorite pitch.

And I could talk about Fast BMXer X and how he's all this and all that, but, to be honest, nobody outside BMX cares.

Now those inside BMX, they see some guy who came up from nothing and proceeded to put out some ownage, that's a name that's repeated around the tribal campfires, guys like Leonne (or, sure, Hill).

We're not only fortunate to be in a sport with this wide an embrace, but we're fortunate to be in a sport with this wide an embrace and a system to remind us how broad this embrace can be.

Finally, let's not kid ourselves: Frothing into a lather over 2009 inductees? Do you people not have lives? I'm immersed in this sport up to my neck and then some and I'm having a lot of trouble seeing your point(s).

Deanna,

I know my BMX history pretty well. I think where you and I disagree is at what level someone becomes HOF worthy. Cheri was a legit Icon. Not many more were. The only point I was making on women getting more air time now that they have a pro class, is it does bring some of their talents to the forefront. BITD, there was not enough demand for a female pro class. The NBL DID create a female pro class and for a while only 1 or 2 women even stepped up, so it did not make it initially.

Regardless if they were pro or not, the names in the hall should be iconic names. Not "Well I raced and won nationals bitd." There has to be more to set apart an individual from the rest of the pack. Unfortunately, there were very few females who did that bitd. Sure, some of them won their class on a regular basis, but that alone does not validate a HOF induction. Was it unfair BITD? Sure. But that is what the market dictated at the time.




E,

I know this may come to you as a shock, but you can actually still use that line without McGrath being in the HOF.

Don't be obtuse. McG had a positive impact. I know I can invoke him and get some play, invoking you: Not so much ("There's this WE group.....")

But see here, you and others in this thread: What quality is it that you hold with makes you the arbitrator of who's HOF worthy or not?

Let me get this straight: You mean that the mass E-mails were voting ballots from one source to the committee as the public's vote? It was not Redline sending out mass E-mails to people urging them to vote for the Redline men? The latter, while I don't like it is persuasion, The former, if I understood correctly, is voting "Chicago Style" and leaves a very bad taste in my mouth!

(snip, trying to edit myself )

Oldtimer1980s

I bet you could ask any kid in the country their reason for racing or even interest in bmx and NONE will tell you because Jeremy Mcgrath used to race!!! Are you kidding me, you would have to go to the local mx track for that. Most of the young kids in bmx have no idea who Mcgrath is other than seeing him in the x games, if you dont think so ask some kids at your local track and see for yourself.

I will not vote. Whats done is done. I am not interested in being disrespectful to Jeremy McGrath in any way. The mistake was not McGrath's, The mistake was the ABA's. I did get it, I understood from minute #1 that it was a marketing ploy. McGrath is in and it should stay that way. Now moviing on to next year, I hope this does not happen again.

On the other hand, in future years when the bmx hof ers meet in so cal to don the yellow polyester hof jackets, they will have a chanch to enjoy the company of Jeremy McGrath.

"Hey Jeremy, will you tell us about anaheim 1986 again?"

Mx Mug

How about Marvin Church, Sr.?

Richard Vogt
bmxmountainbiker

E,

Now you're going Andrew Defrane on me.....What makes me the arbitrator of who's HOF worthy or not? My opinion. That's who. Just as your opinion does for you. Check the pole on the other thread. I think you will find the final number against JM being inducted to be around 75% or greater. AND, what coincides with my opinion is all of the major sport HOF's example they have set. That my friend is what we should be looking at as a model.

Also, no need to invoke me. I would not be HOF worthy in any scenario.

hey, lance armstrong raced bmx.

I agree and disagree with the above statement. I agree that during the 90's most of the media outlets pretty much ignored girl's in bmx. Pick up any magazine printed in the 90's and you will not see any or very few ads that include or hi-lite the woman of this sport. As Gork has proven, the industry & those with power prevails in influencing the history and rememberence of the sport of BMX so very unfair to disclude a whole group of people. It didn't matter what it was that girls accomplished, national champ, winning opens against the guys, world champ, the media gave very little press to woman in either the ABA or NBL. There were a few photographers and writers that would occasionally highlight girls but some just ignored girls all together. I am sure if you asked Robbie Miranda, Jason Donnell, Danny Nelson, Matt Pohlcamp, Jason Richardson, just too name a few AA Pro's (sorry for calling you out guys) that in the latter 80's and 90's girls in BMX were far from lack luster especially since we were winning the guys cruiser classes and open classes racing the same guys that were winning the expert mains.


The part that I disagree with is to say that the girls classes were less spectactular. While I was only a little girl the first time the Girls Pro class came around, I along with Michelle Cairns, Marie McGilvery and a quite a few other girls fought hard to get the Pro Girls class reinstated in the NBL. This reinstatement in my opinion is part of what has lead to the great competition in that class over the past 15 years and to where we are today with woman's BMX getting into the Olympics. And whether our classes were lack luster or not, I remember having quarters at the Presidents Cup and the Grands more than some guys classes have at nationals today.


I also think that the sponsorships for woman over the last 20 years failed for woman leaving them out in the dust as far as media coverage goes. I was lucky enough to have great sponsors that covered all of my racing, travel, and hotel fees along with paying for me to go to the World Championships and I know a few of the other girls did also. But what they failed in was making sure we were marketed and were making the pages of the mags. I am elated to see that woman in BMX today have better sponsorships that are marketing them in ads. I get so excited when I see an ad in BMX mags or read an article about Jill or Arielle or any of the other woman in some other media outlet outside of BMX.

This being said, if the future HOF focuses on the lifetime accomplishments of men/woman in the sport of BMX then the lack of coverage during any of these 70's,80's,90's,00's decades for woman will not impede on choosing inductees. The nominees be judged on their accomplishments not their popularity.



Melanie Cline

PS
And yes I think the woman are deserving of their own category in the HOF. We fought to have our own pro class, our own crusier class, guess this can be the next fight, our own category in the HOF.

Or John Palfreyman... have you ever seen that guy in a pool?

Richard Vogt
bmxmountainbiker

Also, no need to invoke me. I would not be HOF worthy in any scenario.

But Elvis is in the HOF, the rock and roll HOF that is.

Mx Mug

Who's Andrew Defrane?

So, by popular acclaim (of teh Internets *eyeroll*) we're saying this thing's in the wrong .... because a vote was undertaken by popular acclaim?

So, wait, why don't we just set up some EZ Ups, and under them are the people we like and the people we don't like. We won't tell people which is which, but the ones standing under the right one get to make the decisions.

Or we could vote on who gets to make the decisions... or who the deciders vote upon. Really, this could go on for days.

And where were you drama queens guys when the voting was going on? Running in with water buckets after the fire is pretty weak, you know, since we're talking.

(We're throwing some hard punches, you and I, but we've done this enough so as not to take it personal. I'm just putting this note up for the reader's benefit.)

Elvis, you know I love ya but reading your post, lol makes me laugh..First you say "you guy's don't have a life?" all the while you cannot wait to sign on and see whats new on this thread...Then you can't take it any longer and begin typing away..Your just like all of us, you love BMX, you love to read the drama, and your a BMXer tried and true! (Remember Stu on his Huffy during the clinic?) inside joke to get you to smile..

This thread could go on for days, weeks, months..Lot's of good opinions here that we could talk about for some time...

Here's my take:

As long as the ABA is going to leverage the likeness of "people who are bigger than us small time BMXers" to get "exposure" for the ABA HoF "marketing 101 as SHANNON says....As long as that is the "Marketing strategy" behind this very ignorant decision then I'm over it...My ABA HoF plaque is off the wall, in a box and in the garage..As you place Jeremy McGrath into the ABA HoF, right when you do that, making it official, I would appreciate you removing my name, it would please me tremendously..I will never ever sacrafice my integrity, hard work, blood sweat and tears over my long career to be involved in "marketing 101" fund raisers...

The Hall of Fame is reserved for the sports finest, HoF is associated with greatness on the field, track....It's not associated with you helped run your local track for 6 years and your in...It's not associated with you won 7 supercross titles and you used to race BMX and mentioned it in your book...Your in..Etc....

Now the standard has been set, next will be Nicole Kidman, she did a movie on BMX bikes years ago put her in..

STEVE VELTMAN..Remember him, look him up, 3 ABA titles am cruiser, am 20" and pro..No one has ever done this..John Purse, 25 wins in a single season, multiple titles..Next time you guy's want to do an honorary induction why don't you put your greed down, and honor people who busted their a$$'s and give them some love..

Yes I'm over it, Shannon do I need to do a formal request? Lose my plaque on the way to SoCal..Thanks a lot!

Cash, you made reference to the USBHOF but you did not look past the surface.I get phone calls every year, letters 3 to 4 times a year and they involve us in the process unlike the ABA...The decisions are made by the few, the few who know what they are talking about...It is not a popularity..You need their contact info? Need a name? I can get you what you need, perhaps looking a little deeper at how they operate would be helpful to your "committee"

GH

Jamie Lilly retired about four years ago. Kim Hayashi is in sort of limbo recovering from injuries but the last I heard she intended to race again.

I totally disagree with this. I think amateurs of both sexes should be allowed in. Many great multiple title winer racers only had Amateur careers. For the child amateur racers which I classify as 14 years old and younger who never turned pro, I do think there should be a separate division for child amateurs. The likes of Steve Skibel, Jason Jensen, George Seevers, Brit Audeoud, Jason Wharton etc. should be recognized. Older racers 15 and above who never turned pro like Shelby James or had brief pro careers like Doug Davis should also go in based on their amateur record. Besides, there would only be a limited number of pros to be Inducted (unless you practically let in every pro regardless of record) and we will run out of racers!

See above. Despite the pro class, to this day the great majority of BMX racers are kids and most of those kids never turn pro. They should be recognized by having people like them in the Hall. We were thrilled at the likes of Geoff Scofield tripling practically every weekend, we should honor that.

What you are suggesting is to continue the injustice of the past. The girls did pioneering things and won many titles themselves. The HoF is to honor those achievements, even if they didn't get much publicity at the time they made them. They deserve it now. Did you know that Deanna Edwards convince Clayton John to start a girls cruiser class? This including her many amateur girls titles should be recognized. The same with say Ashley Recklau in more modern times. Denying Girls, particularly from that era would be just wrong. They went almost unnoticed then, they shouldn't be cast aside now. That would be a final insult.

Amateurs were are and still the backbone of BMX and they shouldn't be left out. I am aware that BMX is one of the few sports who HoF include amateurs. It is like the Baseball Hall of Fame including Little League, Pony League and College Baseball in their hall, but our pro class even if you gather up all thirty years of them and then separate the Elite/pioneers from the rest will still be relatively small. And again, I do believe the Great Amateur should be recognized. So for both practical and sentimental reasons the Amateur, which is still the foundation of our sport, should be eligible for the hall. Just compare the records just like with everyone else and decide who gets the honor.
(snip)

Oldtimer1980s

Jamie has recently started to race again...

A couple of questions...

1) When GH gets voted in, do we put him in under industry or racer?

2) If this is a national BMX HOF, will the NBL HOF people be put in? If Clayton is in, Bob Todesco should be in, too... And, how many of us would argue Linda Dorsey being in there?

One comment of McGrath... During his prime, he was able to spread the word on BMX to more people in a single evening than we currently have racing. And that number doesn't include the people that were at home watching on TV...

For the ladies, I would say maybe vote them in separately so they don't get overlooked as easily, but put them right in there with the guys in the HOF.

Brian

BMX = Bicycle motocross.
Surely you all remember that bmx started out as a way for kids to emulate the "big kids/dads" on motorcycles with their little 20" bicycles. BMX started its life as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Now that some kid has taken his bmx experience and used it to move up and become arguably the best MX racer ever, rarely missing an opportunity to share the story of his bmx roots along the way, you all want to get up in arms at his being inducted into the hall as an "honoree"?
Did I hear someone say that JM was being inducted as having accomplishments in bmx rivaling that of the sports greatest?
No.
Is Jeremy the first and only guy to do what every kid that ever threw his leg over a 20" dreamed of doing when he started bmx?
Yes.
Lots of bmx kids have made the 20,000 point club, and imo should be named as a sidenote in the HOF, not a lot of them went on to dominate motocross/supercross for the better part of a decade.
"Honorable mention" for JM is a no brainer in my opinion without considering the marketing aspects of his induction. Thats a bonus.

The Hall should be about the best of the best in bmx. But it also has to tell the story of bmx, how it got to where it is today, and it should refer to those that made significant contributions along the way that otherwise would not be mentioned among the "best of the best".
"Honoree" suits that bill perfectly.


R.

Guilty as charged, but maybe I'm not quite as angry as some.

But anyway: I like Randy's take as to how the HOF tells the story of BMX. (And let me add beating up Shannon for a throw-away statement on a message board probably isn't fair; I suspect he'd like a chance to re-state).

I'm saying this is a non-issue, or at least not as big an issue as some are making it out to be.

Man we are witness to the part of Greg Hill that made him the dominant rider and champion he is.
His opinion on this does deserve weight. He is part of the hall not because he dedicted some years to the sport. It was his life. He pushed the iron in the gym, He dealt with pain and injuries, and paid the price to be the best. He obviously demanded the best of himself for years to do what he did.
So I can see his point. We definitely do not need him asking to pull his name from the hof. There does seem to be a need to make some differentiation between honoring the people that play a part in the story of BMX from the athletes that took it to a professional level in skill development and training.
BMX started because of motorcycles and It is cool that Jeremy acknowledged BMX during his career.
It does seem that too many non pro riders are up for entry this year and maybe the separation from honoree and pro athlete is not as clear as it needs to be. It sounds like the ABA needs a comitte made up of guys like Greg to hash these things out.
I hope Shannon and Greg can work this out and come to terms that keep Greg in the HOF and proud that he is in there.

I can see both sides of the coin here. I respect alot of the views and opinions expressed by most of you.

However, I really can see where Hill is coming from on this. It does seem odd that Jeremy could get in just because he raced as a kid.

So many people have raced as kids and then went on to do great things.

I think it should be about bmx and only about bmx.

With this philosophy you should be putting hundreds of other famous people in.

I think Jeremy is one hell of a mx rider-racer. He did so much for "that" sport. He absolutely is an important figure and he deserves respect, I just dont think it should be from the bmx hall of fame.

My 2 cents.

I want to make something clear, this is not a personal issue..It's about what is the right thing to do..It's all about doing what's right..

Also, I have the utmost respect for Shannon, we have talked many many times and I like the guy very much..I am not attacking him, this is how I deal with issues..Leave the ego at the door, leave the personal feelings at the door and hash out your differences..That is how I roll..Shannon, if I offended you I am sorry, please focus on the issue, not on if you feel I am attacking you, I am not..

GH

Greg,
You deal with things in a very straight forward manner... I think Shannon knows you well enough to not take it personally...

Brian

Hall of Fame
n. pl. Halls of Fame
1. A group of persons judged outstanding, as in a sport or profession.
2. A building housing memorial items honoring illustrious persons.


Greg's plaque reads as follows:

"for leadership,racing abilities, and winning ways in the formative years years of BMX. - November 22, 1990"


Chris Moeller's reads as follows:

"for his innovative bicycle designs and industry leadership that helps shaped BMX into the sport it is today. - November 27, 2002"

Gary Littlejohn's reads as follows

"for his contributions, direction and influence to the sport of BMX - November 25, 1998"

As you can see, each person is brought in for different reasons. All hae made some sort of contribution towards BMX.

Greg was a racer and he was inducted as such. Jeremy McGrath is receiving an honor for recognizing his roots in BMX as the foundation of what made him great in Motocross.
Jeremy McGrath left BMX for a career in motocross which he parlayed into one of the greatest the sport has ever known. He is proud that BMX is where he started t and in turn if 1% of people he tells his story to, check out BMX, thats a cool thing.


Really?
Greg, you left BMX a few years ago and bounced from job to job, at one point you had me hawk your NORA Cup on ebay because you were over BMX. Those were your exact words to me. You had the memories and that was enough. I recall you were installing flooring in restaurants. Again in your words, "BMX wasn't paying the bills".

Was selling your NORA Cup a "marketing 101" fundraiser for a charity or scholarship fund of some sort?

The ABA for 2009 is establishing a scholarship fund for BMX racers that will be funded with proceeds from the annual Hall of Fame dinner. The Hall of Fame is moving to a dedicated room at the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista, CA. Prior to 2009, the Hall of Fame dinners with at no cost to the attendees and as many know, the room was packed. all expenses were paid for by ABA. The dinner this year is being held in San Diego at the Hall of Champions.



Following your thoughts, we need to remove the following people and strip them of their honors as they aren't associated with greatness on the field, track.... according to you.

Bob Haro
Linn Kastan
Skip Hess
Bob Osborn
Jim Melton
Scot Breithaupt
Chuck Robinson
Vance Patterson
Gary Turner
Rich Long
Mike Devitt
Pete Kelly
Ernie Alexander
Merl Mennega
Gene Roden
Big Daddy Ralph Mundia
Gary Cook
Rich Hutchins
Craig Kundig
Yvonne Shoup
Rick Twomey
Elaine Holt

None of them left a mark on BMX because they achieve their success riding a bike...according to you.


I can assure you Greg, that if ABA were in it for the money, the Hall of Fame should have ended years ago. The expense of the dinners, flying in the honorees and family members and other associated costs was very high, all of it paid for by ABA because it was the right thing to do, it was honoring our past, the sport of BMX.


You should have told us 19 years ago that you didn't want to be in the Hall of Fame because our criteria for nominees has not changed. The voting process was changed because of apathy from the voters. Industry and past nominee ballot returns were dismal.

The people who were dedicated in getting the votes back to us were the Gonzo Summers and TimL's. That was why we turned to the BMX community as the Hall of Famers had better things to do than to mail in a ballot or notify us when they moved. You have no idea how hard it was to track down some of these people.


The decision to open the vote is still a matter of discussion in our office each year and next year it is entirely possible that things will change.

Points have been made and noted. Time for the olive branch or peace pipe here guys.

Marketing 101
Positive and Negative argument = Success!

This thread is awesome.
Hill, My Friend, wanting to be removed from the HofF is priceless!!

____________________
Also
I run a gate at local track. A little kid shows up for months wearing a MC PJ top. Moms said he wants to Motocross but BMX is it for now! Said it is the only thing he will wear. They found BMX fallowing MC.

True Story

Gary Haselhorst

What the heck...


I like bunnies

TimL, RCain, Cash, Mike C.

Great Posts, You guys are doing a great job.

______________________
I said this on another site.

Go to your local track and ask the young racers who their favorite Hall of Famer is?


The current HofF project going on is taking a step in making sure they do in the future.

If any of you fallowed MC when he raced BMX you would know he was very good and raced for years.

If any of fallowed him after he moved on you would know he promoted BMX. And, He still does today.

GRH

I don't know where you get the 'only 1 or 2 women stepped up' facts, because Cathy Tedesco has posted several pictures of her and her fellow racers in the Women's Pro class from back then. They're on her FB page. And there were five or six women pros in each pic. And they were at tracks as diverse as South Park, Louisville, and Sarasota.

In any event, it's easy to say 'there wasn't enough interest,' or however you phrased it. It's also easy to say there wasn't enough interest because there was virtually zero support from the NBL. The first incarnation of the women's pro class was done very grudgingly, and it was apparent to those of us who turned pro back then. You can only tolerate being patronized and told that you don't count for just so long before it's time to hang up the helmet and move on. Please don't try to speak for the women pros from back then. You can't know what it was like to dedicate yourself to a sport for five years or more and have it come to an end with a pro class that wasn't even supported by the sanction that originated it.

Can we put Tomac in? seriously though, how can Tim Judge not be in?