Just wondering - serial number is KT300040.

don't know what year it is but I do know I like it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shawn,

I'm not sure anyone knows how to read those serial numbers, or if they even meant anything at all. S/N is on the left dropout but is parallel to the drop slot, correct?

My guess it that it was the 40th one of that type ever made. And that the 3 was for 1983. I believe the K was sometimes used as an overseas manufacturer indicator, but, ...was also used as an indicator that it was made in the Paramount room, as opposed to a W for Waterford, on road bikes during the turmoil eras. The T may be for Trioval. There is no proof of this. They were being phased out of the Paramount room, and being sent overseas at that point.

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?new...paramountdating More pages on the Waterford site too, along with all the history of Paramounts if you are interested.

http://www.thecabe.com/index.asp?D=Feature...winn_date_codes

Only a best guess from my knowledge of Schwinn foreign country numbering.... (But a firm date from my knowledge of The Sting history) ...That is an early '83, or even a late '82.

When they first sent them overseas, they TIG welded the whole frames using the original tubing. The tubing was designed to be brazed. The brazing carried the load, and spread the load over the whole weld. Additionally, the heat from the torch stress relieved the weld area about 4 inches back, leaving no hard stress lines along the welds. This is why you sometimes see a ripple in the Tri-oval areas of chrome Stings a few inches back from the weld. That is where the red hot part, from the torch ended (essentially).

When Schwinn first tried TIG welding them, they did the whole frames. The welding created stresses in the tubing along the welds. They did not want to pay for stress relieving the frames after welding. They were trying to save money by doing this, not spend more.

The first ones failed all the time at the head tubes. Yours is exactly like the one that I saw Ted Guilimette (sp?) snap in half at Shorewood in late '82 (His was a prototype at the time). It broke at the head tube welds.

Shortly thereafter, Schwinn admitted defeat, or admitted defeating the design of the tubing and frames by undermining them and TIG welding them. But they refused to admit total defeat. So... They started brazing the head tubes, just like on the originals, possibly right over the top of the TIG welds on some, shortly after sending them overseas. But they still insisted on TIG welding everything else to save .32 cents, and not have to hand make the welds, and make them pretty.

So yours is a very early, and very rare, surviving example of a Sting that was completely TIG welded. They started prototyping that in late '82, and very few made it to the floors in '83 to my knowledge. Even the catalogs show brazed head tubes for '83 Stings. (But the rest was still TIG welded).

Therefore, I am very serious when I say, "Don't beat on it, you WILL break the head tube" about a half inch aft of the welds.

Not only that bro, but I see that you have the original V bars on there. The V is tilted out. Those are a rare item indeed. I've been offered a couple sets, and should have taken them, there are only a few known sets of them out there. But since it's a vintage after my primary interest zone, so far, I have declined building one or needing them.

I don't suspect your bike will need one any time soon... but, ...Let me know if that one ever needs a home,

A rare bike you have there Shawn. Built right AT the "Consternation" point in Sting history. (I made that up somewhere along the line, and it stuck, lol)

(P.S., good to see you back man.)

Wow - thanks Ted. I have this listed on Craigslist and Ebay, but I think I'm going to pull it off Craigs and see where things go on Ebay, I'm hearing from a few people that this is a very rare bird.

It is completely TIG'd (not very well by the way) but now I'll take a closer look at the joints - pretty sure it's tri-oval, and all the parts are original - including the bars, even the crappy freewheel is stock (and overhauled).

Great info Ted, wish you could have made the Condo - it was a good time.

Ted, according to the site you linked, this is 1982 frame - OCTOBER 1982 = KT***** So maybe it is a prototype? That may make some sense as to why there are 1985 Yo! components on the bike, Schwinn was cleaning house about that time and could have sold it a dealer - I'm just speculating. I know that the original owner bought it from Pioneer Schwinn around 1985 as a new bike.

I have a little more info - seems there is some question about this bikes origin, at least one of the people who has been in contact is saying things don't add up.

Considering it's an '83, it's a bit difficult to say for sure what the situation is - as Schwinn was literally cobbling together leftovers at the Waterford plant and importing frames too.

The best guesses up to these point seem to indicate that at some point the bike was spoofed with Sting Stickers and a Paramount badge (which I doubt), or it was made at Waterford of mixed leftover tubes, it was a prototype, or it was made overseas. Whatever the case, it's a strange bird and a bit of an enigma.

I'm not claiming it's anything that the pictures don't represent - it's just another bike as far as I'm concerned. Schwinn aficionados can argue the finer points - I just want to sell it and represent it as accurately as possible.

What I can tell you is the downtube is not oval at the BB, and there is a round Paramount badge on the headtube. Here are a few pics of those areas.

Screams 83' model year to me with the ovalized tubes. 83 was the only year that was done on the stings. If I had to venture a guess I would say it may have been manufacture in 82' for the 83' model year. Maybe it was sold as a frame and cobbled together later by a dealer (with yo parts, that's a damn shame).

It looks like an SX2000 w/ Sting stickers to me. A better pic of the fork might help too. Weren't the seat tubes tri-oval at the BB joint on the Sting frames?

Also, since we are on the subject of Stings...where were they made? I believe the Sting came out in '79, correct?

I believe Schwinn moved their Paramount operations to Waterford in '81?


Were they made in both locations, the early Stings in Chicago and later in Waterford?

That is 100% Sting. All the identical tubing was made with the same tubing machinery. Just welded together differently.

Tri-oval means "Three tubes" were ovalized. Sting Comps and SX-2000s were "Bi-oval" Only 2 were ovalized. Not as much ovalizing, and thicker tubing too.

Stings were NEVER made at Waterford. Only in the Paramount room at 1856 N Kostner Ave. in Chicago. ...Then sent overseas.

Marc Muller, who was credited for getting the Stings built in the first place in 1979, made the move to Waterford, and is still there now, only now it's under their ownership. (has been for a long time). The transition from closing the Paramount room was circa 1983-85'ish as well. (I forget exactly) But the Stings never followed the move to Waterford.

The confusion lies in the fact that they packed up the tools and the tooling, and the fixtures, and sent it overseas. They unpacked the boxes, hired new employees that may or may not have ever built a bike before, and told them to put together Stings. They moved production to Mississippi, Hungary, Taiwan, and mainland China. Your guess is as good as mine as to where the Stings were actually farmed out to.

We don't really know where the originals were TIG welded together at for the prototypes, nor for the production bikes. For the record the Sting forks were ALWAYS made overseas. That's why the chrome is nowhere near the quality it was on the frames. True story. Somebody knows, but we haven't found that person yet. They just went overseas somewhere and they were never the same.

But it's a prime example of what is wrong with the country now. Schwinn sends production overseas, lays off all employees (who were also customers), quality drops, incomes cease at the factory, more customers are lost, hello Pacific Cycles. They are cheaper, but nobody has a job to buy them anymore.

The Paramount room was never credited with making a profit from day one. It was a cost center for Schwinn. They built dreams. They built by hand. They built quality. Everything about a Schwinn Sting was on par with that. Hand crafted, hand brazed, state of the art ideas, and designed to be second to no one. But you had to get out your checkbook to own one. But they probably only added to the deficit on production numbers in the Paramount room. What they did do, was sold dreams, and created envy, and reputation, and their existence alone sold a lot of Scramblers, et al.

In short, the Paramount room was an advertising agency, and a marketing strategy, a showcase of what Schwinn was capable of, if you could afford it. It was a way to prove they were the best, and built the best products, even if all their products weren't the best. They made sure they had one that was the best.

Schwinn tried to push The Sting into the general market, and "profit center" by lowering production costs, and raising volume. But to anyone who owned a Paramount built Sting, it was a slap in the face. They cheapened it, and took out the hand crafting, and took away the beautiful hand crafted, hand polished welds, and tried to say "it's just as good". And to top it off, they didn't lower the price, they only "kept it the same price". It just lost it's prestige.

They only succeeded in making a cheap imitation of their own product IMO.

Think about how the hardcore Schwinn riders on their team felt. OK, we loved promoting the quality of the Schwinn Stings and Sting Comps. We were proud of them. Then they show us one with ugly welds, that breaks, and is no longer hand made. But we are riding older models that still rocked. We don't want one of those! ... How do you, as a team rider, promote a bike that you don't even want. How do you give up your older model that was better in trade for a lesser model? I don't want that thing, I want you to keep building them like you were. I want to keep my old one! How do you tell people to buy a Sting, because they are so awesome, when you no longer think they are awesome? What do you tell people? "Stings are the BEST! And you should buy one... if you can find an old one, like this one!". Errrr...

It was a bad deal for everyone.

What's to compare?



I'll trade you my Cheese Sandwich for your Fillet Mignon



There have been a couple others that I've seen go through eBay.



Same tubing, ...no flow.



But, the fact is, those serial numbers don't necessarily match up to any of the known standards at that point in time. And they changed more than once, as far as we can tell too, after that point. They even put them in different places on a few. But you can just hear the Paramount guys.... "I don't care what you use, but you are NOT using OUR serial numbers on those!"... lol

The YO parts have no bearing on it IMO. I think they bent the alloy cranks, or they creaked and wobbled, and someone stuffed some off another bike onto there. Nothing more.

But it is a very important piece in the Sting history, a piece that is missing from my collection. Therefore, I think you should give me a call man, or e-mail me... let's talk.

Great response! Thx.

Something seems a little strange to me. I have two of those all welded stings, serial numbers JT300228 and JT300245. Both were Predator Sting models. They were given to all the riders on our National team (bike shop team). I also have one that is brazed at the head tube, serial number FT300035 which was also a Predator model. Seems to be that yours should also have predator stickers on it also. I myself have several complete sticker sets and several head badges and could easily do the same thing to one of my predator stings. I also notice that the head badge is completely different from any of my stings. My stings that have head badges also have a four digit number stamped on them.
By the way, all the bikes that were all welded were still together and we beat the crap out of them. They were free after all so what would it hurt to abuse them right? I sure wish the forks held up as well as that all welded frame did. I finally had to start riding with Redline RL20 freestyle forks on them and still destroyed a pair of them on that same frame. 8 foot aerial out of a quarter pipe that I pulled out to far and landed to a front wheel slam. I used that bike as my primary thrash bike and still have it today(JT300228). We had a freestyle team that I used to do flatland on. I would do back wheel hops directly into front wheel hops on thing. Now that was abusing a front end on a bike.

Here is a shot from the 1984 catalog. They actually zoom in on the brazed welds on the head tube.

I can't find the images I am looking for that people have sent me, with odd serial numbers and locations on them.

Sometimes it seems straight forward, that they used the numbering system that they used on the SX-2000's and Sting Comps. Whereby, KT300040, would be October of '82 using the SX-2000 serial coding system. I believe that is an October of '82 sting Shawn. The head badge is not a Chicago head badge, but it does have one. Later they were decals only. It fits perfectly in the time line as an Oct.82 model. (When I first read the number I thought it was 2 digits short of that numbering system, but it's not, my bad)



The first two would then be September of '82, and they were also TIG welded on the head tube follows the time line correctly. Exactly where I know these models existed, late '82 and early '83. IF they adopted that numbering code at that point. Which they probably did. ...For a while. I can't find the photos and stuff I am looking for which blows the whole serial numbering system up shortly thereafter.

However, there is an overlap period too. A period when they were making BOTH kinds, at both places, for warranty work, or for whatever reasons.

Just like the overlap we have found in "Patent Pending" decals, and "Patent" decals. There seems to be a few months in there, when they were sticking on whatever sticker was on the roll in their hand. One month there is a Patent decal, and 2 months later it's still Patent Pending.... Both "SWEAR they are original decals...lol.

However, the last one listed there would be June of '82. This has to be a Sting Comp (predator version), not a Sting. There were still Paramount built Stings in the summer of '82 being built at that time. The Sting Comps had brazed head tubes all along. I'd like to see that one to know for sure.

One of these days I will compile the huge piles of data I've gathered and put it together into a comprehensive, be all, end all, list. For now it's scattered among 2 computers, and many random discs, and paper files.

After '82, trying to follow the consternation era variances can drive a guy nuts. I try not to get driven nuts...lol

Aha! I found one of them...



This one is one of "Ol Bob's" He was a HUGE dealer in the south.

This is an '83 or '84 according to the decals (??) (I forget, but the decals, TIG welded head tube, and a couple other things, put it into question, not to mention the serial number itself...)

Note; there is a UxTxxx for a serial number.

So.... Do we assume that after T comes U for 1983 and they dropped the month letter code before it, and someone put later decals on it? There are only 2 letters and 4 numbers in the code as well. But the 3 remains the first number after the letter. Was this a manufacturer location code? Was the U the year? or was the 3 the year? Is it a hybrid between the Paramount numbers and the Sting Comp numbers?

Mind you the old code meant that the letter would be the month, followed by the year.... ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRST..... U. .... The 19th month of the year??? Hmmm

And is the T for Tri-oval like it used to be, (TO) or was it a 1982 T ????



I have one photo of one stamped on the head tube too... Not a Comp, but a Sting.... First day on the job? lol...

It's messy.

I still haven't figured out what the factory stamped "M-52" is on one of my BB's either. ... M as in Marc Muller ??? ...Under the paint, not through it mind you.

Sorry, That was the weirdest edit EVER....

It went back to the original goofs, and didn't take any edits...

Something really weird is going on here...lol.


BTW, where is the serial number on that one Shawn. On the head tube, or on the dropout as in the last photo... ???? I'd really like to know for sure... I've seen both... (Some don't believe it, lol)

Great info Ted, my Sting has the serial number on the left rear dropout like the photo you posted above.

I firmly believe this is a transitional Sting of some sort, the Paramount head badge seems original - and as I look at the stickers on the bike more - they look original as well, they are slightly offset horizontally on the downtube as were all the Stings. I think if someone was adding them later they would have missed such a subtle touch.

Also, this bike came out of Pioneer Schwinn - most of that team were co-sponsored.

As for getting it to you - if you want it, it's yours old friend - I have 24 people watching it on Ebay waiting to divebomb I guess (no bids yet) - but I'm willing to pull it and give you the good guy discount, or barter with you on something (I need some Campy hub parts ). Drop me an email and we can talk. You can swing by tonight if you like, I'll be around.

Nope. it is for sure a sting. Small headtube, pinched seatstays and tri-oval. It is welded everywhere except the headtube and where the seat stays meet the seat post tube. I'll see about getting a picture for you soon. It is currently built as frameset with those bent RL20 freestyle forks mentioned before. I had it on a speedworks trainer since bent forks didn't matter on it.

I have a sting in bad shape that someday will be restored,It was stolen and returned with a snapped off seat clamp area.It was ran with many uni shims for to many years.It also came back missing the head tube badge. Would you decode the serial for me Please, Jon

#FTP00021 on outside left dropout

Which type of welds does it have?


Either "A" we have another anomaly, or "B" that's not the right number, or "C" I already figured this one out years ago, and have forgotten . Because it doesn't fit either system.

-----Under the original Paramount code:

The first letter, is the month it was built (no I's). So it would be the 6th month or June. ABCDEFHJKLM..... 12 months.

The second should be a number. Maybe the T is a 1? Look carefully. If so, that would be a 1981. It represents the year. You determine the decade.

Where you say you have the P will always be a T for Tri oval.

Then the last numbers represent the frame number built "That Month".

IOW under the Original Sting numbering system, G9T0154 would read.... G=July, 9=1979, T=Tri-oval (only Stings are Tri-oval), 154 = 154th frame built that month. (busy month) Simple and 100% accurate to what you own.

------Under the Sting Comp. numbering system:

The F would still represent June.

The T would be 1982. Taken off the chart. Count backwards from there for a couple of decades for each prior year.

The rest are all numbers in that system. ...and you have a P written down, which doesn't fit here either. Under that system it shouldn't be a P. There should be 8 digits total, 2 letters, 6 numbers. (Hence my mistake counting 6 in Shawn's, 8 total, not 8 numbers, I'm getting old, what can I say, lol )

They frequently started the numbering with an 8 in that code for Sting Comps, which is likely the TYPE of frame it is. IE, a Scrambler, or a girls bike, or a Sting Comp. But .... Maybe they added a P for Predator instead of a number??? I don't remember all the other details, which I have written down here somewhere, on these number anomalies. But if I remember correctly, the last few digits in that system also represent the frame number built that month, or the 21st frame built that month of that type.

Check the serial numbers carefully. Half stamped numbers are not uncommon, and may fool you.

Many head badges had 4 numbers stamped on them as well. Though some did not. Either they got lazy sometimes, or they didn't bother to stamp bikes that came as frames only, or if they were in a hurry, they didn't stamp them, or their stamper dealio was busted that day, or.... something affected this too. Some with original head badges were not stamped. Just because it's not stamped doesn't mean it's been replaced. But, if it's stamped, and IF the date on the badge is not before the date on the frame, and if the dates are not 10 years apart, ...then it lends credibility to the badge being the original badge. It also tells you a little story of how well those bikes were selling at the time, how production was going, etc.. Fun stuff.

If the head badge has 4 numbers on it, they read as follows: 2270. (on an SX-2000 sitting right here next to me). Assembled on the 227th day of 1980. This means they put the bike together and stuck the head badge on, on that day, bike complete. But the frame may have sat around for a while.

The serial number on it is DR800296. Which says April of 1980. (At 296 of them in April, they were stocking up).
The badge says 08/14/1980, which was a Thursday BTW, lol. http://www.onlineconversion.com/day_week_number.htm

So the frame sitting next to me was built in April of 1980, and was assembled into a bike and given a head badge on Thursday, August 14th 1980, ...6 months later, so they apparently had plenty of Red ones built, and sales on them were slow at that point. Make of it what you will, that is your right, and your pleasure, to build your own picture in your mind of the history using the codes. That is an example of when the system works smoothly, and gives you 100% confidence in your collector's items' authenticity.

Schwinn was absolutely anal about meticulous serial number records. Which is wonderful for verifying things. But only if if was built in the USA, and only before about.... 1982. And assuming it wasn't built during the years of lost records due to the infamous office fire, or... during farmouts, bankruptcies, takeovers, etc...

I have a mint never used Sting which was the 60th frame of the month, and the head badge is stamped during the second week of that month. So they didn't waste any time getting that one built up, and they got it shipped out right away. The irony, is that it sat un-used and is still mint 30 years later... "Hurry up and wait?". The guy that welded it probably got in trouble for being too slow that day, because they were so far behind on orders... "Chop Chop, we need Stings!" 30 years later... Thanks for getting that one out so quick!...

I'd say the other numbers are proverbially Greek. But, the truth is, they are Chinese, or Taiwanese, or....? But not Greek.

Sometimes Schwinn numbers are hard and fast, and make 100% great sense. Other times, they are all but gibberish, and who knows what was going on there. The consternation Stings unfortunately, have been seriously obfuscated. (Even Elvis will have to look that one up, lol)

Cheers.

Shawn, I'll ring you tomorrow.

Ted if you would pm me your email I will send you pics. I know the person I got it from bought my chrome one and a candy red one new in 81-82 from St.Petersburg Schwinn cyclery both were stings, My head tube badge that was removed had the star with silver border and said chicago at the bottom.