Today at the track, perfect race weather, track was stuffed with riders. Looked like it was going to be a 25 moto day easily, lots of Pro's practicing and plenty of kids to fill up moto's. 30 minutes before race time and its a ghost town, ends up with 5 motos and 4 of them are mixed age groups.

my son races 5 novice, had 4 kids in his class but I saw at least 10 kids I know from his division there practicing, the faster ones also. They all bailed to avoid sucking up another win, especially since Bakersfield is next weekend. I kept my kid there rather then take him home because of fear he was going to get another win closer to intermediate and yes he did end up winning.

I felt if I left because their werent the right people in his class to stay I'd think about what a sandbag pile of sht parent I was who didnt support the sport, well thats what I think of all the parents who packed their kids up when theyre scared of their kids getting another win. Youre not an asset to this sport.

*Here's the problem with all these Johnny Come Lately BMX Sandbagger kids and parents. The reward in the past for turning expert and moving up the ranks was SPONSORSHIP and TEAM, now half of every 5 novice class is already sponsored and on Teams, whats to drive them to the next level? Nothing, everything has been given to them without earning a damn thing, everyones already sponsored and on team before accomplishing anything.

In the 80's, I dont remember 1 rider that wasnt expert being sponsored or on a Team, their werent any beginner or intermediate riders that were sponsored. If you dont have to move up classes to earn a sponsors, the sandbagging begins because the sponsorship and team reward has already been handed to kids for nothing.

SUPPORT THE SPORT, STAY AFTER PRACTICE, BMX RACERS LIKE TO RACE!!!

and shame on you sandbagging parents

3yr olds that I've never seen beat one kid are TEAM RIDERS, lmao

I disagree with everything you said. lack

I personally have never had to run a team but if I did it would be full of kids who cant afford or have problems getting there selves to the track . They sure would be racing every chance they got . Racing all the time is the only thing that makes a racer better on track .

Nov class's these days are full of kids who need to class up .

Yes , Yes , Yes
Lack of racing and bang your a sponsored rider on a team practicing only to get a third at the next national.

Parents forget you are only teaching a kid to cheat.2-3 years in inter also only because you only practice.

Win a National move up to the next level counts as 2 wins or three at a local.
the only team novice riders should be on is TEAM Mom&Dad

I miss Flock of Seagulls and mullets.

I was never really into Flock of seagulls, but I do miss mullets.

Devo, B-52's and The Go Go's LOL

You guys going through my cassette collection again...

Chicks in leg warmers were kinda cool but I don't miss the leg warmers. However, I miss my youth...and thinking that that Rob Halford is straight.

and now I know where my Priest tape went... bet you have my Blizzard of Oz too..

I didnt like the warmers, but those short satin shorts that were popular with the girls then were kinda the bomb.

One thing I see different......in the 80's, we didnt talk smack on message boards, we just rode our bikes........and talked smack in person.

...not that anyone here is talking smack....

RC

+1 with that.
I sponsored a rider several years ago and was proud that he stayed with it for a while, got on a real team and even got a National #1 even though it was in NBL Novice. He turned expert then beat me every time we raced. I was real proud then.

who was that Popeye?

i think trash talking is as much a part of BMX as it is in Pro wrestling? And I like it cause it's funny. and some dudes you can sike out on the gate.

i dont think someone should be sponsored unless they can bring in the bucks and when was the last time little 5 yr old johnny sold a frame

Thomas Ashburn, he was the son of a guy I worked with for years. I covered his first year and a bit, then another local guy helped him out also, Then he got on ACCEL racing and he really improved. Wish he stayed a little longer but fast cars and women took his attention away.

Who me?...nah, haven't seen it...

does that to the best of us, but he will be back. we always come back sooner or later. for some reason though i thought you were talking about James Zajd.

and i got ya Bliz of Oz tape when we were kids, it just turned up in the back seat of the Black-a-lac one day...or maybe it didnt hee hee hee

The best Hip Hop came from the 80's.

BMX racing seem more fun in the 80s.

the way i remember it was , you tried to move up as fast as you could because bitd you never wanted to say you were a novice. you wanted to be expert and it held a badge on you . now kids could care less.

And that my friend is a lot of what is wrong with this sport. There are some legitimate concerns in what the original poster said. There are a ton of kids that have parents and teams holding them back to gain some advantage at the next national or keep them in the lower proficiency until after the grands, so they can get a high national number.

A big problem in BMX, in my opinion, is that there is no incentive to move up. I know of riders that were great novice/intermediate riders to only be dropped from their teams once they turn expert, because they are no longer useful on the team sheet as they are average experts. As long as there are rewards for staying at the lower levels then riders will find ways to stay at the lower level.

A friend of mine just got his kids into BMX, they went to a few locals and then we all went to Gonzalez for the national, they immediately started asking me if I would sponsor them. The mentality of kids today just expect to start racing and get picked up immediately. I told them to go prove to me that they deserved it. They rode well, but I do not believe in picking up novice/beginner riders.

There are a bunch of new to the ABA racers here in Bama and they are finding their way and getting used to the rules. There is a Local intermediate/novice rider and family that I was speaking with and they asked me about move ups. I explained the ABA rules (as I knew them). The kid has won 2 of the 4 ABA nationals that he has run, and one local, so basically he has 11 of his 25 move ups (if I understand the rules correctly). They told me that he only had one move up in the NBL in over a year of racing, because his local races do not count because of combined classes and such, it is just the way it is set up I guess, because I know that he has won local events and I thought he had won an NBL national, but maybe not. They then asked if the ABA move ups counted in the NBL and I said no, but as soon as he was expert in the ABA, he would be expert in the NBL. They got a look of horror on their faces.




Absolutely

I'll 3rd that, nobody wanted to say they were a novice in the 80's.

It's a different social metric, there's more sponsorship in all sorts of sports, wheeled sports not in the least, hence the expectation.

We can all pull out instances of kids/familes who don't seem to have a handle on the soul path, but then (devil's advocate here) would being on the right team and being under that teams tutelage be the way to show them the righteous way?

Sponsor (speaking the Kaos way here) whoever the hell you want to sponsor. If they got the right attittude and spirit, more to 'em. If somebody's only being sponsored due to their finish, I'm saying that has more to do with bad sponsors than bad rider expectations.

It is part of the pussification of America. Parents think their little snot nosed brat can not handle losing and heartache so mommy and daddy do things like put the kid in "no score" park and rec soccer and baseball leagues, get things like dodge ball and tag banned in public schools and now have the sanctions making as big of a deal of the rookie/novice and novice/intermediate classes as they do the experts. The ECBL has one upped its park and rec pussificationess by adding national rookie and novice awards ("take that ABA, our slow riders get plates") which RCain so eloquently equated to being the smartest kid on the short bus.

There are 2 things that can be done to stop the spread of pussification in BMX

1. Kick the proficiencies out of the National and State Series races, everyone at those races race vs everyone else their age and gender who is on the same size bike. Now a lot of the proponents of pussification will argue against that because it would eliminate the newer, slower riders from the larger races (It wouldnt leave them out, it would just make it more difficult for them to contend for the main and a trophy) Those pussification proponents would be responsible for scaring the lesser skilled riders away from the national series and that could mean fewer riders at nationals and less money to the sanctions, we know that wont happen.

2. Seperate the girl, expert and pro classes from the open, cruiser, pro cruiser, novice and intermediate classes during the national schedule. Run the open, cruiser, pro cruiser, novice and intermediate classes earlier in the day, give the open, novice and intermediate class riders smaller trophies than the cruisers and the riders later in the day will recieve. Then after the morning events are over, take an hour or two break, start girl, pro and expert practice. Then make a spectacle out of the race for those classes, loud music, introductions of all the riders, hype the thing out, charge a dollar admission to anyone who hadnt raced earlier in the day to come back and watch the later event and apply that money to a larger pro purse. This will make the novice and intermediate riders realize that they are not equal to the experts and want to move up to be part of the spectacle





As for the leaving when practice is over.... Orange Whytis is a result of a local track having a larger pro presence where the pros show up in mass, get their free practice on and then since they can not race they leave. The faster experts who try to emulate the pros see the pros leaving and equate that to local races not being worthy so they leave too. The other experts look around and see themselves stuck racing out of class vs intermediates so they leave after practice. Now you have the sand bagging intermediates trying to save wins for the larger races who were not getting those wins when theyd get stuck in with the experts now leaving as well. What you're left with at the track is novices (who are not saving wins for larger races because theyre usually not yet aware of the larger races) and a few intermediates not yet concerned with saving wins. How do you cure Orange Whytis? Pro races, your one big race night a week when you have all the pros there for practice, put a 2-300 dollar purse up for the pros, pass the hat around the stands and see if you can get it up to 500 or so. Pros are whores, they'll stay and race for money and you will make that money up when all the experts and intermediates stay to race that day too. You might even make that race a pro-am but the ams will have to race class to qualify to race pro am if at first, the experts dont stay to race but just watch the pros race.. It may not work, and the pros may still leave dragging the experts behind them but then again, it might work.

Very intersting point of view E. I can't and won't srgue with this point of view as I see the merits of your position. The worst part is I believe the original poster is very correct, which creates quite a dilemma.

I guess in a nutshell, society is what it is, at least at this moment. But no matter what, you don't have to teach your kids to hold back either. Teach them to do their best and accept challenge.

For me, the last few years have been quite a challenge in BMX. The year in Korea off the BMX made me very slow. So many times I should've won, made a main, etc. but blew because of stupid mistakes and its just now starting to come together. Being one who struggles to get ahead, I don't understand why anyone would stunt their kids talent.

Back in the day I was told by RandyS, a pro in California could make a decent living racing locals. riders would pass the hat and get a decent purse at every local they raced at. You could make a few hundred a night if you worked it. Schmick has the right idea on this one

We all had free Jerseys and bike shop deals in 1979 after a few races and a trophy..(same as todays rooks that we hope to be team sheet novies later in the season) by 82 any expert that ever made a main had a co Factory/bike shop deal.. any kid that won top' 3's at nationals had factory deals.. its no different today..Except there is less riders and moeny in the sport.

I am not a big fan of blaming parents..riders or even sanctions.. None of it makes any sense.

and like its differnt today OH BS...Iwas on a team in 81 crashed in the 13x semis..and my buddy won 13Novi.. He turned X a few months later and never made a main.. but he was "a world champion" at the bike shops in the news papers..

It is different today! You cant be a novi world champion.

OMG remember all the fake birth certificate scandals? 78-82?..I had a kid in the next town that was a year older than us but ran a year younger for 2 years. Everyone knew but he was sickly..So no one cared he was a tiny kid but loved bmx.

Some guy from S side of chicago was a giant..I remember 13X year every weekend they wanted him to prove his age. It was kinda funny as he had a beard..haha almost..he was huge had power but no snap so most of us beat him..But he really was only 13..

Not to mention just about every kid in my class when we were going to total points ABA state, all went over to IL NBL and ran Novi once they turned X in ABA..all of them..we had no class for a bit cept for the kids from Michigan.

One thing our local track has had to enforce is paying to race on race days, even if you only intend to practice. That means no one who isn't registered to race and has paid their fees can be on the track. Now that isn't going to stop parents from paying the $10, the kid practicing, and then pulling from the race. It may be a help to deter some people from showing up and then the place becoming a ghost town. Granted, in BMX and particularly in the case of parents who are holding their lower-proficiency riders for Nationals, the $10 isn't going to break them. Heck, if they pull from the race then every genuine novie in those classes makes the main! It's been a couple years since we had a novice in the house, but making mains is one thing that really matters-at least in the early months- in retention. The pay to practice deal has met with mixed reviews but I would say that it has cut down significantly the ride and run folks.

Is a paid gate practice night any sort of solution to this? You'd have to judge track by track but at least you'd be getting a little revenue from those riders who ride and go.

I see my anecdotes will be 100-1 against..and I figured out why...besides the peer pressure of 30 over novis saying "its hard at X" and the X's makign 50 excuses why they cant go vet pro but all kids should be X.


Survivorship bias (or "Survivor bias") is a statistical artifact in applications outside of finance, where studies on the remaining population are fallaciously compared with the historic average despite the survivors having unusual properties. Mostly, the unusual property in question is a track record of success


Recently, this result of survivor bias has led to cases of "publication bias", and has begun to concern scientific journals. If enough scientists study a phenomenon, some will find statistically significant results by chance, and these are the experiments submitted for publication. To combat this, some editors now call for the submission of 'negative' scientific findings, where "nothing happened."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

The tracks here generally have a 5 dollar practice fee and a 10 dollar race fee but the Pros practice for free. A couple tracks recently went to 7 dollars to practice and 12 to race as well. There are usually at least one practice night a week where any amateur member can show up and practice for 5 dollars (I imagine it is $7 at the higher dollar tracks)
I have heard that some of the tracks up north charge race fee on race nights whether you practice and leave or stay and race and then have a practice fee for practice only nights. that may work but it might also lend to hitting the brakes during the race. At a double pointer a couple years ago at Cuttinge Edge I was watching the inter class at my sons age with Godfather when the 2 kids way out front (Travis Schreuder and Eric Danna) both hit the brakes in the 4th out of 5 turns in the main. They looked at eachother like who was going to take the lead, sat down through the rhythm section and finally a kid from way back, who was in third, passed them and took the win. So even making the intermediates race doesn't mean they wont find away to avoid winning the races.

I actually agree with Schmick!!!!!!!


RV JAY

I know when I was a kid we had a great local newspaper writer who wrote a weekly review of the results . What Im getting at was who wants to read the paper and see they finished 3rd when they could have won and been the local hero for a week .

Just watched a rider on Friday in my son's moto 'no show' for his class main (though he raced his cruiser main) and blatantly tell people sitting near him on the bleachers that since his dad wasn't along (grandpa brought him) he was not going to take his 25th win and turn expert without his dad along. Now why even show up- that's my question. He bumped another strong I racer out of the main and insulted all of the other riders who raced him in being so confident that he would win and they wouldn't.

It's families like that that bring the sport down. He could easily have said he had a stomachache, hurt his leg, or even raced the main and 'came unclipped' but he was blatant and stupid enough to admit what everyone suspected. What's worse, being a blatant sandbagger and racing, or being a blatant sandbagger and sitting on the bench.

Can't wait till he shows up next week. And he will.

nautique25 is 100% correct. All anyone wanted to say was they were EXPERT when we were kids, that was the first question everyone asked, what division are you in and you were the sht if you were expert and it was a goal everyone had.

Lack, I dont remember any intermediates getting coverage at all, ever. I was #1 plate intermediate and my name or pic wasnt anywhere to be found and i cant remember any other getting coverage until they were experts, maybe dont remember correctly though.

Schmick, The Pro's not racing local probably do have a lot to do with low moto counts and experts imitating the Pros and leaving but your complaints about Orange, lol they have more moto's on average then anywhere else throughout the weeks from what I've seen. I guess they average 20 motos and the Pro's are their every race day practicing.

What year did local Pro races stop and why?

Getting Pro Locals would probably double moto counts

Rueben, What do you say? Would it take a big sponsor? What would it take to have Local Pro race once week?

and we didnt talk smack on the net in the 80's, it obviously wasnt available but people also were racing, nobody just practiced and it took me while to figure out the reason but its all clear now, this sandbag stuff I've been learning about, lol

you may want to check those stats, yeah the Why has pretty large moto counts but Roseville generally averages moto counts in the high 30's and many of those motos are expert class motos. last time we were out at the why for a friday nights practice they had 16 motos , 2 were cruiser and 1 was expert, the rest were novice and intermediate class motos which is fine if you have a 5 year old novice but when you have a 13 expert and the only expert moto was 9 expert which would have left him racing 19-27 inters who were in a mixed class. 9 years ago that track would get 40-50 motos and several of them were expert class

i like what Schmick said

i thought there was an ABA rule that mentioned something about intentional sand bagging, although not called that.

WE all need to start calling out these sand baggers and especially the parents who encourage this. As a parent myself i cant understand why they do this to their kid cause it certainly isnt preparing them for the real world, maybe thats why we have so many "slacker - the world owes me something" types now. I often wonder if they ever think what is going to happen to them when mommy and daddy arent around anymore

Just be right when you do. If you're wrong, have only an opinion not proof, then that makes you a tool on a witch hunt. At which point you'll be chiming in on the "why are our numbers declining?" thread.

I hear you Lima Charlie Mr Riddler and i totally agree. Let me ask you, have you observed the sand bagging that we speak of?

if so, what are your thoughts on how to combat this epidemic?

I've seen it for sure. I think you're on the right track that you have to say something, but this is situational and kind of an art.

1st, be right. If its a friend and/or their family pull them aside maybe one on one. If your friend is a T.O. or holds a board position at your track or in some position of importance perhaps you can appeal to their sense of responsibility. Heck, not that I advocate sandbagging but you could tell them its obvious what they are doing and they should at least go to the cruiser only for a while where its legit...I'm thinking there's some psychology to that approach.

If none of this works, or you don't know what to do, lay out a detailed account of what you observed that makes you suspicious of sandbagging to the local TO/TD, thus putting the responsibility where it belongs. not saying this is 100% and we all know it isn't. but sometimes you've got what ya got.

the two I mentioned grab brakes at that double pointer, well Schreuders parents were running the track and Danna who was behind him and grabbed brakes as to not want to pass Travis, well his dad was the announcer. Schreuder is out of racing again as his parents no longer run the track, probably back in MX, he did turn expert shortly after that race and did pretty well in the expert class. Danna I think still rides occasionally and I believe is still an intermediate.

I agree with Schmick for the most part except the cruiser classes. yes I race cruiser, but there are quite a few great riders(not me) that race it. I always thought that rookie/novice was for the 1st YEAR. Kind of like a rookie of the year in all of the ball sports. inter/novice NO MORE than 2 years, after that auto expert. I think you have to get 20-25 wins or something like that, it's crazy. I've seen several people that have been a novice for more than 4 years. If you are not expert you should have to get a signed petition of say 25 people and look at the past years results with video of you racing because I also know a guy that WILL NOT go fast at all because he likes to know that he's going to work on Mon. Nationals, no mor rookies/nov. either that or don't plate them. Give them a trophy for 1st-3rd, thats it, or this is my personal fav, age groups only. If you did an age group only then NOBODY would have to worry about move ups.

you forgot The Fixx

Perhaps he got "The Cure" which took care of his need for "The Fix" Or maybe that went in a whole other direction...maybe those bands were "Black Flag"ged when he discovered "The Dead Milk Men" in his hood and everybody swore it was the work of some "Butthole Surfers"...cause you can't blame "The Dead Kennedies"...but "The Ramones" are suspect...

but that was only because someone was sleep walking in a deep "REM" sleep and couldnt be blamed for pulling out their "Sex Pistols" on the "Queen". but the "Police" were alerted by the barking of a "Skinny Puppy" who had a "Clash" with a "Stray Cat". and the "Noise" was only as loud as a "Quiet Riot".

Wel no wonder, its hard to sleep with all that ruckus..."Judas Priest" i say, how can anyone get a good nights rest on this bed? "The Scorpions" keep crawling under the covers and it feels like your sleeping in an "Iron Maiden" Oh well, "Accept" your fate.

Why is that legit? Why don't cruiser wins count toward moving up in class. It's not like you're not gaining race experience. If anything those racing on a cruiser are gaining Expert experience racing in the age group only class.

Don't take it up with me, take it up with the sanctions. My point is its not against the rules.

As for racing experts, yes at nationals but very questionable at locals...at least in the old guy class. I find the middle class 20 to be more challenging at times than the cruiser class at non national level. Otherwise at nationals I'm chasing the fastest of the fast non-pros and former pros...

Last year I decided rather than form up on a class to just break out my 20 and chase youngsters. Eventually all the old guys got on 20s. My plan is to work hard and move up by the years end things keep on track.

That wasn't really aimed at anyone, it just seems an odd way to have people (kids really) avoid moving up when they should.

I don't think avoiding move up is wise or honorable at all either. One thing I could say is that cruiser is different depending on where you're at. If used correctly, not abused, it may serve as a system to measure how ready you are for a move up. or even serve as a stepping stone in between. meaning you may be able to achieve faster speeds by chasing on cruiser, but with the benefit of big wheels as a stepping stone to work out the squirrels. then move up and moto fill the expert class, work out your 20 inch squirrels, get faster and work on the main.

The whole time you race both bikes and race the 20 to win.

That's what I'm doing now. Hopefully parents will teach their kids toachieve.srive for more and not hold back

All these years later I don't think I've ever seen sandbagging do anyone any good. It just frustrates everybody involved. We had a rider one time that got within 2 wins of turning Expert and stayed at that level for two years! His dad made a point of telling you when you talked to him that this was the year they were going to win the Grands! And he seriously thought that this was the way to go. The kid,who was a pretty good rider, never won the Grands or anything else and finally just quit. He was a really good kid but his dad was just clueless.
We started racing in the 70's and I have seen 2 riders bumped up to expert by the track operator for sandbagging. Both happened in the middle of a race and almost started a riot.
This is another problem that has gone on much longer than I thought it would.

Good Luck All!

From what I understand this weekend Roseville have 37 motos and 45 motos for single point races, thats just a scosh above 20. They also had nationally ranked experts luike Sutter Choisser and Kevin Shankel racing... local single point races. There are a ton of great local programs going on and pretty much none of them are in So Cal