I just picked this up at the flea market. Nope, not a $5 Hutch this time unfortunately. How about a $20 mid eighties
Mongoose? The problem is all the decals but the downtube are gone. Looking over the BMX museum, I think I've got it narrowed down to a Californian or Expert. The top tube is 18.5 inches C-C. How do you tell? Top tube length? Serial number? Pics below.,,,,OS

I might go with 1983. Probably just an expert, does not look like it has the goodies on there to be a californian.

What goodies? The seat/post/stem/bars & wheels are not original... Did they use a different crank, etc.,,,,OS

I don't know, I just assume most of these are base models unless they say "californian" on them and have some nicer parts, but then, the decals could be gone and the parts could be all changed-out.
Maybe I should not just assume things, but the base model experts were more common. So I assume things on the common-ness - the law of averages.

The californian came with those one piece or the pro class tubular 3 piece cranks but used a larger disc instead of the spider that is on that bike. I believe the expert used that spider. Id say it's an expert. Those pedals came on both.

I dont recall ever seeing any of the pro class cranks on the californians bitd but I just saw an ad in an old BMXA mag that said it was an option. <shrug>

That's right, the disc,thanks, I was thinking there were more goodies.

this appears to be your bike

http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/mongoose/17649

That's an `83 and the Expert & Californian frames were identical that year. The only Mongoose components on it are the f/f and crank/sprocket/pedal set and maybe the bars too. If those are original to the bike it is a Californian. An Expert would have came with a one piece sprocket. The Pro Class disc and 3 piece cranks did not come out until `84 or `85.

Well, I found out why the big washers were on the front. One side of the drops is mangled, and the other is mangled and the slot is a V shape. So, it's either replace them and rechrome, or trash'em. What a shame. Thanks for the help so far! Much appreciated!!,,,,OS

Headset is Mongoose, as is the BB. Were the cranks still stamped Mongoose during this time? I would imagine they
were, since they look original. The sad part is that it looks like it has never been regreased since the day iit was built.

Another odd thing about the frame. On the BMX museum pic, the seat stays meet the seat tube entirely above the top tube. On mine they matched the top of both tubes, and there's only the size difference of the tubes in the offset. A mid year change maybe, or was there not a set assembly procedure?,,,,OS

Just a production variance.

basically it looks like an expert, differences are...

1. stem is cheaper anlun type? vs mongoose (SR made?)
2. heavier steel spider w/generic chainwheel? vs powerdisc w/sugino chainwheel?
3. steel w/unsealed suzue vs Araya 7x's w/sealed suzue?
4. diacompe older versions? vs front/rear diacompe mx's
5. Suntour Seat Post Clam vs Dia-compe Hinged MX Seat Post Clamp
6. kkt vs shimano? beartrap
7. cranks seem the same, Stamped Mongoose on both
8. shorter bars vs taller CW bars?
9. seat? vs dominator seat
10. generic bmx grips vs b1's?

as for frame/angle, I wonder if cali was all chromoly vs expert trimoly? becuase the 83 expert was trimoly mainframe, and cali was full chromoly.

heres a sticker pack for ya

from what I can gather, yours was made in Moorpark, Ca, and after they moved from the chatsworth,ca place they changed to all chromoly frames, and only differences were in the parts?

are there 3 holes in the brake bridge or 1, becuase 3 would be chromoly, 1 is trimoly.

Moorpark, Ca made August 1984, Mongoose Expert, it was the top tube/seat tube that did it for me, over/under vs inline. youve got some of the pro class parts, rims are STEEL, takagi cranks, SR pedals,

I searched all over and finished this post and then I found this...shrug...;-)
read all that then go here

looks like an 83 expert - the expert had lower end parts - basic - the cali was an entry level racer offering

in 83 and then again in 85 --- both the expert and cali were merely trimoly

they were full chromoly in 84 only

Single hole brake bridge, so a trimoly I guess? Fair enough... Also my downtube decal is solid yellow, not red/yellow fade?,,,,OS

Where did you get your info from? If you aren't 100% sure you shouldn't post as if you know what you are talking about.

These are from the `84 catalog, but they are of the `83 bikes since the `83 catalog still had the gusset frames.

"Only Supergoose had a three holed brake bridge." - MCM

Dare I challenge the rigid "Mongoostrionics" or potential wrath of MCM - Dave? Yikes! LOL! Once the word "Motomag" started being used to describe a "Mongoose" well... I was lost! That was in 1980? Right?

Anyhow, far be it for me to comment on anything "Mongoose" later than '78/'79 or anything without a brake tab (yes I'm a crusty old timer) but I have a '79 Nickel Supergoose with only one hole in the brake bridge and the flattened seat stay on the ride side... If that means anything.

Also, I thought Teams also had three holes in the Brake Bridge. Weren't both Teams and Supergooses full Chrome Moly?

Please correct me if I'm wrong... I can handle it!

OK, I'm outta here!

Carry on...

Sorry MGD, I should have quantified that. We were discussing looptails, so that's what I was referring to. The main point I was trying to make was that the three holed brake bridge was not the identifier between full chromo and trimoly frames. The only looptails that had three holed brake bridges were Supergooses (and Pro Class's/Rupe's, but that's a whole other story).

Dang... Got me again Dave!!!

Note to self: "Must remember, "Motomag" as used to describe a "Mongoose" started in '81!!!" But wait... Is it possible that was from an '81 Catalogue that was prepared in 1980???

Ha! Maybe I was technically right!!!

Ok... Seriously here. Looptales??? What are those? Holy Moly!!!

I'm outta here!!! Back to the '70's...

Sorry boys.

That is true, but only for the mid `81 to mid `83 gusset frames with the step down dropouts.

Looptails..... the way of the future!

Maybe, but my `81 catalog has a copyright date of 1981 on it. Not sure exactly what that means as far as timing goes, but it is printed on it.

Ahhh... I get a "maybe"? Ha! BTW, copyrights are actually my livelihood. I'm referring to the 1976 Copyright Act when I tell you this Dave.

This is what it means: There was no such thing as a "Motomag" bicycle until 1981. This BMX Products catalogue was prepared in 1980 and MGD is right.

I'll buy that!

"basically it looks like an expert, differences are...No, it looks like a Californian"

correct, 1983 Mongoose Californian

"stem is cheaper anlun type? vs mongoose (SR made?) Stem is not correct for a Mongoose"

your right, same stem across all models, team mongoose stem.

"heavier steel spider w/generic chainwheel? vs powerdisc w/sugino chainwheel? Expert used a a one piece sprocket, Californian used the quick change Tioga made spider with a chainring. Pro Class Power Disc was not available in `83"

correct, expert used single piece sprocket, cali used takagi not tioga quick release. power plate indeed did not come out till 84.

"steel w/unsealed suzue vs Araya 7x's w/sealed suzue? Araya's were not used on looptails. Expert's would have used Pro Steel Pro Class style wheels, Cali used alloy Pro Class"

correct. not araya, expert used steel, cali used alloy.

"diacompe older versions? vs front/rear diacompe mx's Both used MX's style - Californian's were probably DC's, Expert's Lee Chi's, but I don't have proof"

83 cali were dc 1000 front, 900 rear, expert were Lee-chi's

"Suntour Seat Post Clamp vs Dia-compe Hinged MX Seat Post Clamp Both used DC style hinged clamps, not actual DC's though"

incorrect, actual DC MX's.

"kkt vs shimano? beartrap Both used SR-468's"

incorrect, early 83 cali had steel KKT's, late 83-84 cali and expert had alloy sr's once the Pro Class started coming out.

"cranks seem the same, Stamped Mongoose on both Cali's were stamped Mongoose, Expert's were not"

correct, experts were steel vs chrome on cali's

"shorter bars vs taller CW bars? Mongoose never had CW bars. Both were the same height"

incorrect, 83 cali had steel bars, shorter, 84 expert/cali were chromoly with cali 1 inch higher, supergoose had Pro Class tall, "cw like" bars. 85 went to steel for expert/cali, with cali 1 inch higher, with chromoly on the Rupe.

"seat? vs dominator seat Mongoose's didn't come with Dominators. Both would have came with Mongoose BMX seats"

correct. Mongoose Aero on both models.

"generic bmx grips vs b1's? Both had Mongoose grips, color matched to components "

correct, 83 had Mongoose Factory Grips on both models. although late-83 - 84 saw the 2 peice grips with new compound that look like Oak's and in fact 85 cali/rupe had Oaks.

"as for frame/angle, I wonder if cali was all chromoly vs expert trimoly? becuase the 83 expert was trimoly mainframe, and cali was full chromoly. No, they weren't. Both Expert's & Cali's were trimoly in `83"

correct, 83 expert/cali were trimoly.

"from what I can gather, yours was made in Moorpark, Ca, and after they moved from the chatsworth,ca place they changed to all chromoly frames, and only differences were in the parts? No, it was probably made in Chatsworth, as were most of the `83's. Operations switched to Moorepark in `84. Not all frames were full chromoly after that either"

correct/incorrect, its not made in Chatsworth, otherwise would have a C in serial, not M, although parts were mixed in the move, so 83 parts were mixed with 84, but you are right not all frames were chromoly after the move, the M1/Mightygoose was High-ten in 85, only expert was trimoly in 85, all others were chromoly.

"are there 3 holes in the brake bridge or 1, becuase 3 would be chromoly, 1 is trimoly. No, three would not be chromoly. Only Supergoose had a three holed brake bridge."

correct, supergoose with 3 holes used to tell apart from Team model.

"Moorpark, Ca made August 1984, Mongoose Expert, it was the top tube/seat tube that did it for me, over/under vs inline. youve got some of the pro class parts, rims are STEEL, takagi cranks, SR pedals."

correct/incorrect, top tube does match, but serial can be read 3 ways,

M3L10848 = M=Moorpark , 3=1983, L=december, 10848th bike

or

M3L10848 = M=Moorpark , 3=?, L=?, 10=?, 84=1984, 8=August

or

M3L10848 = M=13 month?, 3=1983, L=?, 10848th bike

Ill go with the top one, Mongoose Californian made december 1983, moorpark, after the move, 10848th bike out.

"Where did you get your info from? If you aren't 100% sure you shouldn't post as if you know what you are talking about. These are from the `84 catalog, but they are of the `83 bikes since the `83 catalog still had the gusset frames"

info was obtained at first from looking and comparing bikes here...

mongoose catalogs

then here

bmxmuseum - m

then here...

vintagemongoose - serials

and here..

decal site

look bud, I didnt claim to know everything, Im just trying to help, I wasnt talking like I knew what I was talking about, hence all the ? marks..

Motorcity quote from Jan 7 2009, 08:18 AM
"Dependent on year, the components used on the bike are the only difference between an Expert and a Californian, with the Californian being the higher end."

looks about right, other than some parts pointing to cali...I wonder if theres any other way to tell them apart, becuase I see many 83 experts that have lots of Pro Class/Cali parts, so its this..

1983 mongoose expert


or this

1983 mongoose californian


or this

1983 Mongoose Expert that looks like a Cali.


or this

1983 Mongoose Cali that looks like an Expert
*Note SR pinch seatpost clamp, and single piece sprocket, and stamped mongoose cranks (takagi)


anyway, thats enough out of me, hope that helps, m.

At the risk of getting into a pi##ing contest with you, you started of with "differences are.." which leads one to believe you know what you are talking about and are stating facts. Contributing bogus, unproven info does not help anyone. If you are unsure about something say so, and put a disclaimer in what you say.

Question marks where pretty unclear as to what you meant by adding them.

I don't have time to go pack and correct the new inaccurate info you have posted, but as far as the bike pictures you have included, those are all restored bikes. Many things could have been changed, added, or upgraded over the 25ish years since they were built, so they can't be used to judge what an accurate 1983 bike should look like. With only a quick look at them, I didn't see any that were 100% accurate for their year/model.

**********************Disclaimer***************************
*by reading this post, you accept that I might be wrong, that I *
* am human, and could possibly make a mistake, or hell I could be *
*right. *
*********************************************************

maybe so, but what you missed was right at the bottom, the link for the very catalog you were refencing? and me saying, look I wrote all this and then found these (catalogs). I wrote it in english so I thought I was safe...sorry..

"At the risk of getting into a pi##ing contest with you, you started of with "differences are.." which leads one to believe you know what you are talking about and are stating facts. Contributing bogus, unproven info does not help anyone. If you are unsure about something say so, and put a disclaimer in what you say.

YOU assumed I knew what I was talking about, I didnt, I didnt say this was fact or that, nor is my nick Mr. Knowitall Mongoose is it? so please get off your high horse, the topic wont cause world hunger, I posted my thoughts and then my sources. ohhh please tell vintagemongoose/bmx products that their info is wrong, and that you know it all, and they should just hire you for a PR guy, becuase you seem to get along with people so well.

"Question marks where pretty unclear as to what you meant by adding them."

what you mean like how I was using them at the end of the part name? like what is this GT? Redline? pretty clear there mate, its a QUESTION mark! what should I start every post with "I might not know wtf Im talking about so dont pay attention to me."

"I don't have time to go pack and correct the new inaccurate info you have posted, but as far as the bike pictures you have included, those are all restored bikes. Many things could have been changed, added, or upgraded over the 25ish years since they were built, so they can't be used to judge what an accurate 1983 bike should look like. With only a quick look at them, I didn't see any that were 100% accurate for their year/model."

quite so, well I do have time, so i'll take a run at it, I corrected everything already, hell I even ended up agreeing with you on the year/model, so whats your problem? oh really all restored? even the survivor ones I posted for 83 expert and cali? really? becuase they seem to have EVERY part the catalog/newsletters/ad's say they do? but hey maybe you know better than BMX Products/Mongoose? maybe you have the extact spec sheets? the exact catalog not the 84 catalog which shows an expert, which the 83 doesnt show? maybe you should talk to vintagemongoose.com becuase according to you, they dont know wtf their talking about? of the bikes I showed, the top 2 ARE survivors, as far as I can tell without actually owning them that they are 100% complete accurate bikes, please oh god of mongoose, fill me in on specific parts you see that are wrong? or is it easier to just knock a guy, imply he doesnt know poop poop poop, I say again, poop, and should just shut up and leave IDing to the PROS? Quick look? Ive been sitting here since my first post some 12 hours ago, doing nothing but looking up Mongoose's from 83-84, along with every mongoose related site I could find, not the mention going through every catalog I could find, the newsletters, magazine scans, for sale listings, and what have you, looking and writing down every difference I could find.

you were wrong about the seat clamps, it was Diacompe MX hinged clamp, if you want I can post the direct link to the 1983 BMX Products/mongoose Newsletter that SAYS that its the Diacompe MX clamp. Ditto for the pedals, and the crank, you said expert doesnt have mongoose stamped on takagi crank, but it does, they both do. arm length only difference, both Heat Treated Takagi with Takagi sprocket, not Tioga as someone suggested.

All Chatsworth frames had C followed by year code as per Vintagemongoose.com , if his was Chatsworth it would have been C3L10848 not M3L10848, not really hard to understand here, C for chatsworh, M for Moorpark? Please check date codes concerning 83-84's and the move, as Im not the only one who thinks that. Most of the posts Ive seen seem the confirm my thoughts on this.

So what does your magic decoder ring tell you where these bikes of mine were made?

`83 Pro Class C3001376 (on gusset)
`83 Supergoose L3001991 (on gusset)
`83 Californian K3002062 (on gusset)

I also have several that start with a D, E, I and J - what about those?

The `83 survivor you pictured has a Specialized sprocket, and the Cali has an incorerect seat. Both have incorrect bars for `83. There is probably more too, but that was what I noticed in three minutes - I don't have 12 hours to scrutinize them.

Relax, they are only bikes.

So what does your magic decoder ring tell you where these bikes of mine were made?

`83 Pro Class C3001376 (on gusset)
`83 Supergoose L3001991 (on gusset)
`83 Californian K3002062 (on gusset)

I also have several that start with a D, E, I and J - what about those?

The `83 survivor you pictured has a Specialized sprocket, and the Cali has an incorerect seat. Both have incorrect bars for `83. There is probably more too, but that was what I noticed in three minutes - I don't have 12 hours to scrutinize them.

Relax, they are only bikes.
********************************************************************************
***********
np man, just please dont insinuate Im stupid just becuase Im a newb, thats what really drives me nutz.

`83 Pro Class C3001376 (on gusset) Chatsworth, March 1983, 1376th
`83 Supergoose L3001991 (on gusset) Chatsworth, November 1983, 1991th
`83 Californian K3002062 (on gusset) Chatsworth, December 1983, 2062th

I also have several that start with a D, E, I and J - what about those?

D=4th month and so on, you know this already, all pre-M's were made at Chatsworth, as they still had "gusset" serials, and moorpark had Bottom bracket numbers with no C, sorry gusset? you mean on the brace behind the bottom bracket? so if you dont have a "C" before your serial, its overseas made. These are just assumptions based on readings from different forums, most of which you have already read and referenced, ie vintagemongoose and such...




umm are we looking at the same expert? top pic right? cuz from the VM/BMXP stuff that looks like the single piece sprocket its supposed to be? do you have a pic of the right one, so Ill know?

expert bars look right, as does cali? expert had plain steel, shorter, cali had 1 inch taller Pro Class

that cali seat does look wrong, tip looks a bit blunted compared to seat above it, although it does seem to have gold lettering in same spot, pictures a little blurry there, but could be wrong, kinda moot tho, as we both agree that there was only one seat across those models. Are the holes missing from that seat as well? also guts show to much in that cali seat?

Sprocket looks similar to a stock Mongoose Expert, but I'm pretty sure I see the Specialized "S" on it instead of just a single hole like it should be. Also, at the outboard portion of the spoke, there is an added triangle of metal. If you can zoom in on my Expert catalog scan added earlier you can see the difference.

At first glance, both bikes looked like they had Pro Class style bars, but looking back again the Expert's in the first picture may be correct. The Cali definitely has the PC style bars, which didn't get added across the board until `84. Third bike down (Expert) has the correct bars.

hopefully this scan might help a bit

its dated Sept 83 but one would figure its for the incoming 84 bike sells

also this is from 85
but mentions the changes from 84 model

My stock 84 califunker:

Wow, info overload! LOL! So what about the decal thing? All these seem to have red to yellow fade, while mine is solid yellow? If someone mentioned please forgive me. Do they fade to a perfect solid yellow? It seems unlikely.,,,,OS

Orange inks fade over time.

They are not red but orange to yellow fade.

Great info KDW, I have not seen any of that before (and it backs up what I stated!).

I have to apologise here, MCM, Im quite sorry, I shouldnt be fighting on here with you, I understood today that you were just like me, just trying to help, and also that you probably own or have owned far more mongooses than I, and when I did own them I did little to no research on them.

I do have one thing Id like to figure out, are your 83's from Chatsworth or Moorpark, becuase I looked back and I think messed up. I think I meant Moorpark. becuase a C before the month code is from chats I assume, although Ive read tons of opinions, but is there a definative source? other than your basement ie Mongoose documents, bike store sales reciepts, other sources?

"Sprocket looks similar to a stock Mongoose Expert, but I'm pretty sure I see the Specialized "S" on it instead of just a single hole like it should be. Also, at the outboard portion of the spoke, there is an added triangle of metal. If you can zoom in on my Expert catalog scan added earlier you can see the difference. "

conceded. nod. grumble. (grin)

"At first glance, both bikes looked like they had Pro Class style bars, but looking back again the Expert's in the first picture may be correct. The Cali definitely has the PC style bars, which didn't get added across the board until `84. Third bike down (Expert) has the correct bars."

I only assumed so becuase of the 85 catalog that showed the parts lists sheet at the bottom, and they had the expert/M-1 had the same shorter high-ten bars, and the cali had slighty taller high-ten, with the rupe/super with tall/wall Pro Class bars.

as for the crazy pile of expert/cali info, thank you mate, thatll shut me up for a day or 2, heheh...

So, I may get my azz flamed over this, but I have an honest question? My buddy who is a BMX nut says this
Goose is Taiwan made. Personally I think he's full of crap and trying to lowball me on a parts for bike trade. We both
trade parts back and forth on a regular basis, as we're both into vintage MTB's and road bikes too. He wants to give me some
low end Suntour and Dia Compe stuff to build up an early 80's Ross MTB for the frame. I think it's not worth it.

For those of you that can appreciate some american steel of a different variety, here's my latest find.

1986 Trek 520 Cirrus. Reynolds 531 and Tange steel mix, Shimano 600 brakes and front derailleur. Deore rear derailleur....

quote from vintagemongoose.com

"Serial numbers after 1981

In April 1981 and onwards the frames were coded differently. The "C" was dropped and they started out with a single letter followed by a sequence of numbers. (nb: The frames were still made in Chatsworth up until 1984 when the moved to Moorpark. This applies to all frames made, EXCECT those starting with the letter "M" as these frames were made in the Merida factory in Taiwan.)"