OK so last week I scored some flights off the bay and when they arrived I was stunned ! I have never saw or even discussed another set of flights like these.
Since I started collecting it has been my understanding that the first gen Flight cranks were full wrap around pedal and spindle bosses with a single pinch bolt.
Then the second gens came which I always believed to be the ones that were still single pinch but the pedal and spindle bosses were welded to the ends of the crank arms, as opposed to the bosses on the first gens which actually sat in a hole that was drilled in the arm and then were welded all the way around the boss (hence the term full wrap)
And lastly was the same design as the second gen only they have two pitch bolts on each arm and they changed the name to Flight II's
Well that was until this week when I received my new cranks and they had the same design as the 1st gens on the Spindle boss and the same design as the second gen on the pedal boss. I was puzzled to say the least, but not necessarily disappointed. My question for you guys is this... Do you think that these cranks were part of research and development at Redline when they were changing from the full wrap design to the second gens ?
Do you think they thought that the pinchers were going to snap off so they welded them solid around the arm to keep them from breaking but later realized that it was uncalled for ?
Another thing I noticed that I'm curious about is that the pedal bosses are not threaded all the way through on each arm. What I mean is that if you wanted to (and I don't know why you would) you could thread your pedal onto the crank arm on the back side. Well the new mystery set are only threaded on the side you would attach the pedal to.
Do any of you guys have a set like this or know anything about them ?
Thanks in advance guys ! LMK if you want more pics ?
Brian
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/newg...28Image0003.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/newg...28Image0005.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/newg...28Image0006.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/newg...Image0007-1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/newg...Image0008-1.jpg
[ July 29, 2006, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Quetzalcoatl ]
Full Version: Flight Crank ?
Just so we are clear I already know that the 400 and the 401 pinchless cranks were out before any single pinch cranks. I'm just referring to the single pinch bolt RL flight cranks when I'm writing 1st 2nd 3rd gen
Thanks Guys !
Brian
Thanks Guys !
Brian
I didn't think that Redline refered to the pinchless splined cranks as 401s. It was only after the pinch arms came out AND the square tapered arms (400) were on the market that I remember seeing the the name 401 tagged on the pinch arms. Just going on what I remember. Which isn't saying much. LOL
Dean
Dean
Seriously....lets not drag this thread into a 50 pager, and the question is still not answered.... Smokin endo wants to know....
1) have u seen a set look like this b4?
2) whats ur opinion on these? rewelded early in its life, rechromed?
3)pedal bosses are not threaded all the way through...ever see another set like this (see #1)
Finally
Who cares if He doesn't have the generations clear...hes not asking whats first or whats what...just help ID these cranks.....ok?
Jon
1) have u seen a set look like this b4?
2) whats ur opinion on these? rewelded early in its life, rechromed?
3)pedal bosses are not threaded all the way through...ever see another set like this (see #1)
Finally
Who cares if He doesn't have the generations clear...hes not asking whats first or whats what...just help ID these cranks.....ok?
Jon
Oh my...
Dean
Dean
Dean
nothing against you...but some guys just like to rant...throw a little bit of weight around...but just like they throw around...they also weave around the question...Smokin is one of my best friends in this hobby.... just needs some help IDing these cranks... no need for a history lesson.
Jon
nothing against you...but some guys just like to rant...throw a little bit of weight around...but just like they throw around...they also weave around the question...Smokin is one of my best friends in this hobby.... just needs some help IDing these cranks... no need for a history lesson.
Jon
okay get it out the way ....
1st gen 401 were pinchless, full wrap pedal and spindle boss(sprockets interchangable) heat treated 2 piece, 6 spline spindles
2nd gen 401 had a single pinch, full wrap pedal and spindle boss(sprockets interchangable) heat treated 2 piece, 6 spline spindles
later models that resembled them but did not have a full wrap around the pedal or spindle were simply called "flight crank" and the model #401 was lost --- Brain knows that --- his question is when do these fall into the evolution
may need to ask some mid schoolers and hope they may have dates for you -- just seems to be the transition from the 401 to being the simply termed "FLIGHT" crank before also losing the wrap around the spindle boss
*side note as I hate people always messing this up* 400 series came out at the same time as single pinch 401 and were a cheaper made crank w/a fixed (pressed on) star -not removeable- and a chromo tapered square spindle ----- they are not considered pinchless or 1st gen 401's and didn't come out first
[ July 28, 2006, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Dr.Frankenripper ]
1st gen 401 were pinchless, full wrap pedal and spindle boss(sprockets interchangable) heat treated 2 piece, 6 spline spindles
2nd gen 401 had a single pinch, full wrap pedal and spindle boss(sprockets interchangable) heat treated 2 piece, 6 spline spindles
later models that resembled them but did not have a full wrap around the pedal or spindle were simply called "flight crank" and the model #401 was lost --- Brain knows that --- his question is when do these fall into the evolution
may need to ask some mid schoolers and hope they may have dates for you -- just seems to be the transition from the 401 to being the simply termed "FLIGHT" crank before also losing the wrap around the spindle boss
*side note as I hate people always messing this up* 400 series came out at the same time as single pinch 401 and were a cheaper made crank w/a fixed (pressed on) star -not removeable- and a chromo tapered square spindle ----- they are not considered pinchless or 1st gen 401's and didn't come out first
[ July 28, 2006, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Dr.Frankenripper ]
Big help there - I'm sure Brian appreciates it!
Off the top of my head if it helps..
Mid 70's.. Early non pinch Flights were designed and built, went through some mods and testing and Redline sold some in limited quantities in 78, check with Byron Friday for accurate dates, he tested them thoroughy when working and racing for Factory Redline 75-78...Redline Team riders had them in '78-79 and went through more testing. There's some early Redline ads in late '78 and early '79 in BMXA magazine promoting the "new" REDLINE 400 Flight Cranks. No such thing as a pinch bolt yet, that came after it became a common problem with the 400's working loose off the spindle with heavy use and early racing.
1979-80. Considered 1st Generation 400 "non pinch" (170-175mm length era). Put on the bmx market after team testing, ordered seperately and you'd build up a frameset with them. They took an adaptable spider with interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel and bolts or 1 piece "new" Flight sprocket. Wrap around smooth bottom pedal shaft. White and red stripe Redline logo decal....................................................
1981-82. 2nd Generation (180mm length era) 401 "pinch bolt" -Took an interchangeable spider with interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel and bolts "or" 1 piece Flight sprocket. Wrap around smooth bottom pedal shaft. White and red stripe Redline logo decal.
1982-84. 2nd Gen 400 economy "non pinch" . (180mm length era) machine pressed non removeable alloy spider, (Econo Model, came on lower end complete bike Redlines, they probably went with an earlier style non pinch because arms coming loose off the spindle wouldn't be a problem on a mid level race bike, and it was cheaper to make).. used an alloy interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel with chainwheel bolts. White and red stripe Redline decal.
1983-84. 401 Single pinch interchangeable spider or 1 piece Flight sprocket with black and red stripe Redline logo decal.
1985 and after on 401's they changed the decal colors around...after that changed the pedal shafts and then went to 2 bolt pinch in the late 80's..blah-blah-blah, I'm wearing out here...still basically the same crank 30 years later, classic design everyone copied.
[ July 29, 2006, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: nitrotwang ]
Mid 70's.. Early non pinch Flights were designed and built, went through some mods and testing and Redline sold some in limited quantities in 78, check with Byron Friday for accurate dates, he tested them thoroughy when working and racing for Factory Redline 75-78...Redline Team riders had them in '78-79 and went through more testing. There's some early Redline ads in late '78 and early '79 in BMXA magazine promoting the "new" REDLINE 400 Flight Cranks. No such thing as a pinch bolt yet, that came after it became a common problem with the 400's working loose off the spindle with heavy use and early racing.
1979-80. Considered 1st Generation 400 "non pinch" (170-175mm length era). Put on the bmx market after team testing, ordered seperately and you'd build up a frameset with them. They took an adaptable spider with interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel and bolts or 1 piece "new" Flight sprocket. Wrap around smooth bottom pedal shaft. White and red stripe Redline logo decal....................................................
1981-82. 2nd Generation (180mm length era) 401 "pinch bolt" -Took an interchangeable spider with interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel and bolts "or" 1 piece Flight sprocket. Wrap around smooth bottom pedal shaft. White and red stripe Redline logo decal.
1982-84. 2nd Gen 400 economy "non pinch" . (180mm length era) machine pressed non removeable alloy spider, (Econo Model, came on lower end complete bike Redlines, they probably went with an earlier style non pinch because arms coming loose off the spindle wouldn't be a problem on a mid level race bike, and it was cheaper to make).. used an alloy interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel with chainwheel bolts. White and red stripe Redline decal.
1983-84. 401 Single pinch interchangeable spider or 1 piece Flight sprocket with black and red stripe Redline logo decal.
1985 and after on 401's they changed the decal colors around...after that changed the pedal shafts and then went to 2 bolt pinch in the late 80's..blah-blah-blah, I'm wearing out here...still basically the same crank 30 years later, classic design everyone copied.
[ July 29, 2006, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: nitrotwang ]
there were a bunch of little variations in the post-401 era cranks.
the style in question is one of the versions that had some quality control issues (breaking/bending). this may have been the first style after the "401". i had a set of those that cracked near the pinch bolt in short order. i still have the warrany replacement set NOS in the box dated 1993, so, i guess that would probably put the style in question at 1991/2ish.
(incidentally, the replacement set has the "welded-on" pinch bolt boss as well as the half-threaded pedal bosses...so there's another style!!).
the style in question is one of the versions that had some quality control issues (breaking/bending). this may have been the first style after the "401". i had a set of those that cracked near the pinch bolt in short order. i still have the warrany replacement set NOS in the box dated 1993, so, i guess that would probably put the style in question at 1991/2ish.
(incidentally, the replacement set has the "welded-on" pinch bolt boss as well as the half-threaded pedal bosses...so there's another style!!).
Okay. I won't throw my weight around anymore.
Dean
Edit: As I lived it, pinched arms were in prodution well before 400s.
[ July 28, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Deans 35th ]
Dean
Edit: As I lived it, pinched arms were in prodution well before 400s.
[ July 28, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Deans 35th ]
you had weight ?
just kidding --- everybodies imput is always welcome and beneficial --- its a discussion board
just kidding --- everybodies imput is always welcome and beneficial --- its a discussion board
Its all good.
Dean
Dean
wheres bill curtin when you need him?
his standard flight crank response should be here soon......
his standard flight crank response should be here soon......
Thats much better...you guys need to learn how to resize photos. Bandwidth abuse is terrible crime.
2. None of the above
3. Yes, I bought a couple of sets brand new from Seattle Bike Supply in the mid 90s when those cranks were manufactured. I hope you didn't buy them from someone trying to pass them off as old school or early Flights because they are not.
Ok, lesson time and this one's a beauty.
Dean quote below wins the prize for the best memory.
Linn Kastan told me himself during my hours of interviewing him that Redline didn't release the Flight Cranks for retail until 1980. He was not happy the quality/performane of the multiple earlier versions of the crank. There are ads of three early versions but until 1980, nothing was released.
The ad from page 35, June 1978 BMXA has no mention of the "new REDLINE 400 Flight Cranks".
In the June 1978 Bicycle Motocross Action there's a Redline ad that shows the picture of the "tubular" Flight Cranks. And its rounded at the end by the pedal boss. It is made out of rectangular tubing. And there is an actual bolt at the end, like a pinch bolt similar to that on a cotter crank. The text is the ad reads "Newest edition of the Pro Set, available now in seven inch. Lighter than the most popular three piece alloy crank, one bolt quick change operation, uses any sprocket." The next sighting of the cranks is in a Schwinn catalog from 1979. THe pinch bolt is gone and the arms had a resemblance to the 1980 Flight Crank except it lacks the embossed longitudinal groove for the decal.
There are images of 1979 team riders David Clinton and Jeff Ruminer running early Flights but in the Greg Hill images all except two I can find, show him running one piece cranks.
If you want me to really dig, I could simply call Dave next week.
To answer the original question asked by Brian, the cranks you bought were made anywhere from the early to mid 90s... Long after the end of the 401.
I do have say that Dr.Frankenripper has the most accurate breakdown.
The cranks that Brian bought are similar to the double pinch bolt version which came out about 1996. Seattle Bike sent production overseas a few years ago.
Fact trumps memories which go bad with time. Mine included. Thats why I love digging up the facts.
[ July 29, 2006, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Quetzalcoatl ]
quote:1. YES
1) have u seen a set look like this b4?
2) whats ur opinion on these? rewelded early in its life, rechromed?
3)pedal bosses are not threaded all the way through...ever see another set like this (see #1)
2. None of the above
3. Yes, I bought a couple of sets brand new from Seattle Bike Supply in the mid 90s when those cranks were manufactured. I hope you didn't buy them from someone trying to pass them off as old school or early Flights because they are not.
Ok, lesson time and this one's a beauty.
quote:Correct answer. There was no numeral designation until Redline came out with the price point "400 series" cranks in late 1982.
I didn't think that Redline refered to the pinchless splined cranks as 401s. It was only after the pinch arms came out AND the square tapered arms (400) were on the market that I remember seeing the the name 401 tagged on the pinch arms.
Dean quote below wins the prize for the best memory.
quote:The 1980 Redline catalog has the original Flights cranks shown. (no pinch bolt/splined spindle) and DAMN, what do you know..the Redline part number is listed as #401. The cranks however are called "Redline Flight Cranks" in ads, magazine tests and in the catalog. Proof enough that "401" was not used.
I didn't think that Redline refered to the pinchless splined cranks as 401s. It was only after the pinch arms came out AND the square tapered arms (400) were on the market that I remember seeing the the name 401 tagged on the pinch arms.
Linn Kastan told me himself during my hours of interviewing him that Redline didn't release the Flight Cranks for retail until 1980. He was not happy the quality/performane of the multiple earlier versions of the crank. There are ads of three early versions but until 1980, nothing was released.
quote:Show me the ad from the 70's that calls them "400" Flight Cranks. I've documented every ad or article and I see nothing to lend belief that they were called anything but Flight Cranks.
There's some early Redline ads in late '78 and early '79 in BMXA magazine promoting the "new" REDLINE 400 Flight Cranks. No such thing as a pinch bolt yet, that came after it became a common problem with the 400's working loose off the spindle with heavy use and early racing.
quote:Really? Do you want to put a little money behind that statement?
No such thing as a pinch bolt yet
The ad from page 35, June 1978 BMXA has no mention of the "new REDLINE 400 Flight Cranks".
In the June 1978 Bicycle Motocross Action there's a Redline ad that shows the picture of the "tubular" Flight Cranks. And its rounded at the end by the pedal boss. It is made out of rectangular tubing. And there is an actual bolt at the end, like a pinch bolt similar to that on a cotter crank. The text is the ad reads "Newest edition of the Pro Set, available now in seven inch. Lighter than the most popular three piece alloy crank, one bolt quick change operation, uses any sprocket." The next sighting of the cranks is in a Schwinn catalog from 1979. THe pinch bolt is gone and the arms had a resemblance to the 1980 Flight Crank except it lacks the embossed longitudinal groove for the decal.
There are images of 1979 team riders David Clinton and Jeff Ruminer running early Flights but in the Greg Hill images all except two I can find, show him running one piece cranks.
If you want me to really dig, I could simply call Dave next week.
To answer the original question asked by Brian, the cranks you bought were made anywhere from the early to mid 90s... Long after the end of the 401.
I do have say that Dr.Frankenripper has the most accurate breakdown.
The cranks that Brian bought are similar to the double pinch bolt version which came out about 1996. Seattle Bike sent production overseas a few years ago.
Fact trumps memories which go bad with time. Mine included. Thats why I love digging up the facts.
[ July 29, 2006, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: Quetzalcoatl ]
Maybe today, I'll post all the catalog and ad sighting of the early unreleased versions of the cranks.
I would say you're right on the first non pinch Flight being called just a "Flight Crank"..I didn't remember anyone calling them anything else back in '80 but someone a few years ago convinced me they were labeled as 400's (too much hazy info going around now online.) Makes sense later in '82 they came out with a 400 econo model Flight pressed spindle non pinch and a 401 upper end Flight with pinch bolt and removeable spider/sprocket.
I'm glad you dug all the Bmxa mag pics up, that's alot of work but worth it, memory definately fades more than the pics and ads. That collection of Flight pics with text have shown up on many Redline Crank threads over the last couple of years on the bmx boards and are the best ones for detail, someone did a good job.
I do remember the early 78 cotter pin type Flights now with the early Proline ad..looked more like a wide "Addicks" crank, they were "flat" looking metal and not the beefy tubular ones that sold a ton, don't know why the flat looking ones ever really made it, maybe not strong enough and Addicks was also on the scene too with one that looked a lot like it that was cro-mo...when the round tubular Flights came out in late 79-early 80 everyone wanted a pair..they where like $150 or something back then, big chunk of change for a kid to scratch up mowing lawns.
I've never broken the tubular model Flights but have seen 2 pairs in the last month that were snapped in the middle, real nasty looking...anyone seen that happen, doesn't look like a fun ankle recovery?
[ July 29, 2006, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: nitrotwang ]
I'm glad you dug all the Bmxa mag pics up, that's alot of work but worth it, memory definately fades more than the pics and ads. That collection of Flight pics with text have shown up on many Redline Crank threads over the last couple of years on the bmx boards and are the best ones for detail, someone did a good job.
I do remember the early 78 cotter pin type Flights now with the early Proline ad..looked more like a wide "Addicks" crank, they were "flat" looking metal and not the beefy tubular ones that sold a ton, don't know why the flat looking ones ever really made it, maybe not strong enough and Addicks was also on the scene too with one that looked a lot like it that was cro-mo...when the round tubular Flights came out in late 79-early 80 everyone wanted a pair..they where like $150 or something back then, big chunk of change for a kid to scratch up mowing lawns.
I've never broken the tubular model Flights but have seen 2 pairs in the last month that were snapped in the middle, real nasty looking...anyone seen that happen, doesn't look like a fun ankle recovery?
[ July 29, 2006, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: nitrotwang ]
quote:I put those images together three or four years ago because I got tired of explaining that the first Flight cranks were NOT 400 series cranks.
That collection of Flight pics with text have shown up on many Redline Crank threads over the last couple of years on the bmx boards and are the best ones for detail, someone did a good job.
The absolute expert on this thread would be Dave C. He was in charge at sbs when all these changes were made. The cranks in question are definetly Seattle area made. From what Dave explained to me Controll tech started production of Redlines and decided they could make a few changes (usually to increase prod. time on a labor intensive product) they also decided to decrease weld bead size. Lots of problems arose with that batch so design was changed once again. On the earliest arms the sprocket boss was only half as deep as the arm and welded in on the inside face of each arm. The next gen had a longer sprocket boss that was welded to the outside face of the arm and then cleaned up on that side. The spindle/pedal wrap were the next issue to be addressed.
quote:Pinchless flights were never known as 401's.
1st gen 401 were pinchless, full wrap pedal and spindle boss(sprockets interchangable) heat treated 2 piece, 6 spline spindles
quote:Exactly!
*side note as I hate people always messing this up* 400 series came out at the same time as single pinch 401 and were a cheaper made crank w/a fixed (pressed on) star -not removeable- and a chromo tapered square spindle ----- they are not considered pinchless or 1st gen 401's and didn't come out first
quote:The 400 series came out with the 401's (as the DR. has stated) the original FLIGHTS were not designated with a number.......
1979-80. Considered 1st Generation 400 "non pinch" (170-175mm length era). Put on the bmx market after team testing, ordered seperately and you'd build up a frameset with them. They took an adaptable spider with interchangeable Sugino type chainwheel and bolts or 1 piece "new" Flight sprocket. Wrap around smooth bottom pedal shaft. White and red stripe Redline logo decal....................................................
quote:Those are prototypes so they were not available to the general public and don't really count.....
No such thing as a pinch bolt yet
Really? Do you want to put a little money behind that statement?
While we have the Redline experts together, can someone tell me which of the black stickers on this sheet would be appropriate for a 1983ish set of flights? On the one pair of flights that I ever had back then I had mostly rubbed off black stickers and I'm not exactly sure which one would be correct for the rebuild I'm doing. A friend gave me #5 but I'm thinking the little triangle was just after 1983 and I may need #4.
What say you Flight Crank experts?!?!
What say you Flight Crank experts?!?!
Maurice I would take a guess and say #12. I'm looking for some #13's at the moment to clean these baby's up.
Thanks for the lessons guys. I love learning all I can about the legendary parts from BITD.
Glenn
Thanks for the lessons guys. I love learning all I can about the legendary parts from BITD.
Glenn
number 3
i believe 5-11 were all available through the 85-88 years of freestyles beginning - and were available to match all the goofy color combos of the bikes of that era
make that 4-11
the solid was put on they're race builds (completes) and the little triangle accent ones were put on they're freestyle models that had flights on them --- to match the colors and decals of each according model
regarding the "triangles"...
this is how they came from redline. you could use the triangles, or not. they were a separate decal.
this is how they came from redline. you could use the triangles, or not. they were a separate decal.
Wow MR CB learn something new everyday!
# 12 didn't exist BITD.
COASTVL,
I have a set of #13 "original Flight Crank" repops that are far better than the BMXStop version. contact me direct and I'll hook you up.
bill@vintagebmx.com
COASTVL,
I have a set of #13 "original Flight Crank" repops that are far better than the BMXStop version. contact me direct and I'll hook you up.
bill@vintagebmx.com
Those cranks are the 90's flights with a little extra material added by the welder and then ground down. I think it just happened that they ended up looking somewhat like the "full wrap" pinch.
Now - Can anyone confirm my theory ?
I've always thought that the wraparound pinch on 80's flights is made up of pieces born separately from the arms, then welded and ground carefully to give the appearance of being all 1 piece. Look at enough arms from the 80's and you'll see some with a little void here and there, or a small pit or two where the welder didn't add quite enough material to fill the gaps. Its subtle, but I have seen some that aren't exactly perfect.
The 90's design is really the same thing - just alot less attention to detail and skill involved in the manufacturing.
Now - Can anyone confirm my theory ?
I've always thought that the wraparound pinch on 80's flights is made up of pieces born separately from the arms, then welded and ground carefully to give the appearance of being all 1 piece. Look at enough arms from the 80's and you'll see some with a little void here and there, or a small pit or two where the welder didn't add quite enough material to fill the gaps. Its subtle, but I have seen some that aren't exactly perfect.
The 90's design is really the same thing - just alot less attention to detail and skill involved in the manufacturing.
I still have the boxes, instruction & decals from the sets of Flites I bought in the mid 80s (and yes, I still have the cranks, and no, they are not for sale!!)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.