I seem to recall that Skyway never made stainless steel bars and when I looked at JC's auction for the Kos inspired bars I am pretty sure they were stamped "repro" where the grips go.


Dave

the tool has - repro'd Mongoose SS bars as well as Skyway TA race bars and now Bottema's --- 2 companies still in exsistance and one very respectable iconic figure from bitd --- all of which I'm sure haven't been approached or asked for permission about the endeavor


you say you haven't sold any yet ---- good ---- i hope you don't sell any "ever" and further more I hope you get smacked upside the head with one, if you were to even try and give one away


you have opened the door to distrust and possible deception in this authentic collectables world for sake of your own personal and selffish gain - and you have no care or remorse as to the sincerities of the true collecters -- which in my book has no place in this scene -- anyone who cares should take the time and read the total lack of disreguard and sentiment these guys feel towards the thought of people maybe being taken by these dupes in the future of this hobby ......


it's sad - they're sad - nuff said


must restrain myself on this site


LOOK. LISTEN. LEARN.

ahhh, scroll down a little more ----

[ July 04, 2006, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Dr.Frankenripper ]

ah hello folks --- for the record --- markings and labeling


it takes nothing more then some JB weld and sandpaper and a refinish - cover up any trace of fakes to then sell as og

thats $75 say for bars and shipping and $20-30 for the cosmetic altering and refinish (god forbid the goon has access or a shop and its even less an issue for them to get it done)

you just turned a $100-110 dollar investment into $250 to possibly more and cunningly snatched a hard earned $100+ a pop for everytime its done from some poor not as knowledgable sincere honest fellow appreciater -----"everytime its done"----- thats more then potential/reason for deceit ----- could be someone you heard about, could be a friend or could even be you, maybe not today but somewhere down the line --- stuff like that and eventually no-one willbe willing to trust anyone if those items are the pursuit


sorry - call me crazy - but that don't sit well with me

I have no issue with anyone making repop products. Best to mark as such in some fashion. Just don't repop humans and ask for BMX Parts.

Please email me and I can get you in contact with him. I can not address SKyway or Mongoose.

Ben

p.s.s. this is VINTAGE COLLECTing - not stuff remade to look like Vintage stuff collecting

Perhaps I should have put this in the retro section. Good point.

in addition to the last response --- it is no-where near in comparison to retro equipment - which for the most part revovles around mimicing older equipment with newer dimesions and stanards - usually of item that may have never been available in certain sizes and the like Quadzilla, GJS 26" etc out of tribute (which by the way has also influtrated in some cases the true authentic collectable community and caused its own turmoil, hence the hositily torwards the possibilties ...eg.... ask how many SE collecters feel secure in the purchase of SE cruiser bars or 24/26" Landing Gear forks, even 20")


this is a blantant attack at the sanctity of authetic equipment and future sales of them .....


Can I ask BenOr and not as combatative attack, but as in discussion .... your lack of interest either for or against -- is it possible that you have attained your goals or don't actually have interest in the further collecting part of this hobby .... because it seems to me that most that "have" or "achieved" what it is they wanted or sought after --- are the first to cast off the care of future newer peoples' and appreciaters sincerity or desire to achieve what the others have ---- its like not caring about your kids' world to come (pollution/global warming/fossil fuel issues) because --hell-- it ain't directly gonna be your problem


this hobby is fun -- because its for us and we can share -- its not an about "ME" thing

[ July 04, 2006, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Dr.Frankenripper ]

The OS thread was intertaining for a while, hoping this discussion stays civil. It's important for new guys to see this debate which seems to be almost annual.

Where do you get lack of interest? Yes, I have built all the bikes I wanted to build in order to regain my lost youth. I have always felt these are kid’s bikes and just a part of my youth. I also find it relaxing to have a diversion from professional life which will take me around 150K actual miles in the air this year. I enjoy the hunt for parts and I enjoy getting my old friends to put stuff into the marketplace. TIM would not have his DG’s if I didn’t find enjoyment in getting people to let go of their old products. I have sold (at no charge) for OM, DY and Bottema. BMX is nothing more to me. I enjoy that SBS has 3 of my restores in their lobby. But I don’t care to have any of them around my home.

The bike I have found the most joy in is my Fireman’s Texas Cruzer. It rides better and is safer than any of the true old bikes I have built. I like that is NS with an old school flavor. I disagree with the argument that repop will ruin the hobby. I do disagree with people selling stuff and lying about it. I disagree even more when the parts are sold and someone like Jeff isn’t compensated. But come on, do something productive with the passion. It’s just silly kids bikes for the furnace repair man to look at.

Well, I for one, like the aproved " Retro Riders" and owqn a 20 & 24 inch AZUSAs and just got a retro 26" GJS to match my origanal 20. I still have some of my bikes from the 70s, 80s & even 90s, but knowing how many I broke BITD, and the fact that I'm close to 100 lbs bigger than then and not as smooth, I will go new school, and if someone like Kappa or Supercross builds an old school style that is ridable, I'm all for it. When I had my polished Quad, I was going to build it up old school, with the retro tuf-neck, graphite tuffs, ect. I have always been a big fan of Jeff Bottema and his forks, I had them BITD, and have a vintage set for my GJS, so it will be like the one I had BITD and now want a set of 26" for the GJS so it can really be a big brother These do not make me want the real stuff less, no, it makes me want them more. If someone is going to do a re-pop, do it right, get the OK and make sure there is a difference in from the real deal. Well, time to get back to work

like i said don't take things personal "I said your lack one way or the other" .... so what your saying is and I know of your assests to the community .... but do you think its acceptable to have a Redline mono displayed at SBS if the fork and the bars were knock off ? do you think that other people that cahse the same authenticity that may not have the connection or knowledge you share, have to be left accessible to the possiblity of con or thievery ... not all may be as fortunate as yourself .... and thats the issue .... I know I won't get taken for the items at hand, but how much time is needed before every item is cloned and the hobby is no longer as passionate a pasttime as its meant to be ...


now for the fact you may not be able to appreciate the old school rides - maybe your to large or maybe you just evovled along with modern rides and actually like thery're feel what about the countless others such as myself (at 38) or fortunately sizable mature adults that still do ride them and would rather them to newer stuff ---- is it to heck with us then ---- your expression is being a bit narrow minded towards your personal sentiment - what about the others that see it differently ---- whats a dust collecter to you is my actual ridable bicycle that is an exact authentic rebuild of what I RODE AS A CHILD and TODAY ......

you wanna do retro - cool

you wanna do new school - cool

but you wanna do repro -without authorization or control/identifcation guidelines, that may lead to future exploitation and thievery- of the old school equipment that I so cherish as do most sincere collecters, with no conscious as to the possible desecration of the hobby or violation of fellow appreciaters themselves ..... is totally gonna lead to problems - problems we don't need to be exposed to if we address them firmly and aptly (like bug spray)

and immediately

Yo Mark,

I think they get your point.



[ July 04, 2006, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Thumperpilot ]

Wow. This is why I replied to Ben's original post with a joke about human cloning. Because people get so twisted up about this.

Frankenripper, the word is "combative," not "combatative," and the only reason I'm correcting your spelling is because you launched a giant tirade against not only Johnny Chopper, who is apparently stamping "repro" on his bars, but against Ben, of all people to bust on in the Vintage game.

Not everyone shares the vehemence of your anti-repop sentiment.

"this is a blantant attack at the sanctity of authetic equipment and future sales of them ....."

I have three vintage bikes, one of which has a pair of Mongoose SS bars which I paid through the wazootie for. If repops had been available, I for sure would've bought a set and covered up the "repop" with the grips. Why? Because this is the bike I ride in Golden Gate park with my five-year-old daughter. And my other Goose has repop Kusuki V-bars...well, I guess they're vintage--from Alan's in the UK, but not "real" Redline or Kuwahara bars.

What if my SS bars aren't vintage? Well, they look that way to me, but that's the point. I guess I'd be bummed that someone took me, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I still love my Moosegoose.

You go to great lengths explaining how people can make marked repops look like originals. Maybe it's time to realize that some people will do evil things no matter what, and if Johnny Chopper's heart is in the right place--providing parts to people who love vintage bikes but can't afford to be sticklers about "the sanctity of authentic equipment"--then maybe you could just let it go, you know? This is sort of a "guns don't kill people, people kill people" debate. [I'm not saying I agree with that statement, but that's another thing...] If Johnny C squares the thing with Bottema and stamps his products, he's done what he can and should. You are making it seem like it's his fault if dishonest people doctor up his stamped parts in a misleading way.

It's obvious the guy has welding/fabricating skills, and, being a person on a budget who can't afford, say $500 for a JMC seatpost, I'd gladly buy well made-repops for the few builds I do. Because I have fun with them; I don't freak out on the minutae. Which is not to say I don't enjoy a perfectly, authentically restored bike, like Ben's Redline mono. There is room for both.

Finally, I know this isn't popular, but I have to agree with Ben about them being "silly kids bikes." That's why we loved them when we were silly kids and that's why we love them now. That's why some stuff is so hard to find--because we flogged the crap out of them as children; we weren't thinking, "I'll be able to retire on this G-Boy once they invent eBay and I'm old and bitter."

As much as I drool over a collection like Tim's, and plan to one day make some kind of Mecca-like pilgrammage to see it, collecting things is not the same as "achieving" things. The restore of an old bike or part takes artistry and can be seen as an achievement. But think about rebuilds, even perfect ones. The frame repair goes to Rod, who has mad crazy skills. The paint is done by a good painter, like Chip. The stickers might be redesigned on a computer, or maybe someone else works on those, too. So it's not like a hand-built model...you buy stuff, take it to two or three different artisans, then put it together carefully.

At a base level the mere hoarding of rare or sought-after BMX stuff--or anything--isn't an achievement. It's just buying stuff. It's getting on eBay, it's hitting swapmeets, it's emailing buddies. It's commerce, not achievement. I like to think what holds this particular "collectible community" together is the love for BMX, not merely the love for owning things.

[ July 04, 2006, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Gooser ]

I see no issue with retro, repop or repairs as long as they are labeled as such. When people deceive, don't pay or get permission for retro or repop's I do have an issue. Hence the thread I posted.

I can't figure out if you are slamming me for being "fat", but I'm within 10 pounds of what I weighed at HS graduations (167 lbs today at 6'1"). I ride my road bike 1K annually, work out with a trainer 2x week and am in shape so "size" is not an issue (even at 44). I still can not figure how we rode 17" tt bikes with 65 degree head angles and an MX1000. Even OS cruisers with room are sluggy.

You really read a bit much into posts. Old bike are a work of art to look at, but NS bikes kill them for really riding. Plus they are far safer.

Just got off the phone with TL. His phone hasent rang. Thats the prob.I have with the repoppers. They don't ask, and they try too put their own input into a classic. Repoppers are about useful as tits on a boar hog as far as I am concerned....

Moltar informed me...
Legally , Johnny Chopper can make as many of his repoduction Bottema inspired forks as he wants to , as Jeff Bottema or his company never took out a Patent at the USPTO to legally protect the unique design , properties or features of his "invention" **
The Law of Intellectual Property typically encompasses the areas of copyright, patent, and trademark law.
None of which apply to Jeff Bottema's forks. Despite their fame & being exceptionally cool looking forks (imho) , But if any Americans insist on getting in on one of their nations favourite past times of trying to drag people into court to sue them , I'm sure some ambulance chasing Lawyer will take your money then take you for a ride for as long as you keep paying his fee's, whilst constantly assuring you that you have a strong case against Johnny Chopper & all the "illegal" stuff he is doing.
In reality you would be chasing a _very_ light grey area infringement at best that would be thrown out of court if it managed to even appear before a Judge.

Actual Patent info.
**Skyway's Tuff 1 patent number is the same number as stamped into Tuff II's & it mostly refers to using parts of an _original_ wheel design Patent held by George Barris (a prominent 1960's car/hotrod designer ) where Skyway incorporates some of the unique wheel shape & design features into the design & manufacturing of Skyway Tuff wheels , the Patent reference of Skyway to Barris's patent is for "Prior Art" & a deal between Barris & Skyway would have been negotiated & Skyway would have had to pay a fee or royalties to Barris in order to use his Patent & all that it encompass's.

Any other arguements or problems anyone may have fall into categories that are not legally enforceable. IE: Your opinion or what _YOU_ think is right/wrong , good/bad , fair/unfair etc.
These points , which are valid pending on how you phrase your thoughts & your position on a subject can be argued until hell freezes over.
The Laws that cover this particular situation are highly unlikely to ever change .Unless Jeff included some computer software that he wrote & was included with each set of forks he sold , he has no real case of legal ownership or IPclaims. No 5 1/4 inch floppy disc came with the set of M1 Bottema's that CoastVL bought from Jeff bitd , as far as I know.

If Jeff Bottema (or anyone who built something of legendary or iconic status did not legally protect it due to expensive Patent Lawyer fee's at the time) endorsed a modern day production run of "signature series" Bottema forks , he would obviously negotiate a contract with the manufacturer of the forks that gave him some form of payment or royalty to use his name on the product that he endorsed.

Personally , I'd encourage Johnny to sort out a mutually beneficial agreement with Jeff to make an approved "signature series" of forks & sell the finished item for triple the current asking price.
Jeff makes money off selling his name & unpatented invention.
Johhny makes a reasonable profit on the forks he hand crafts , fabricates & welds up.
Original 1980's Bottema forks price's should increase
in value & hopefully keep the somewhat misguided but passionate purists happy or at least let them complain about something else that annoys them & is blatently breaking a clear cut Law.

In my _opinion_ , Jeff deserves to make some money off his name via selling licenced reproductions of the near indestructable & extremely cool looking forks he designed in the 1980's that over time became a Legend & a desirable item to collect/own or fit to every 1980's or retro BMX bike you own , like I do.
Wether this scenario is economically viable or even workable is up to Jeff & another party , possibly Johnny Chopper , to see if they can make it happen.

Randy (a member of this forum for a lot longer than I) has pointed out that this debate is a near annual event , have any solutions been proposed to fix the problem in years gone by or is history just going to repeat itself again & again ?

JB

There will never be a solution for those wanting a piece of the pie, the pie was [for the most part] had long before many of you found us. Cherished pieces are in cherished hands. When they come available the new "wanters" can't fathom the price....welcome to the world of collectables.

Johnny Chopper = Volkswagon kit car.

Going back to what Jet Black says about legalities...I'm not saying Lee Chi or Chang Star were the cool companies BITD, but how did they get away with doing knock-offs of Dia Compe stuff so blatantly? Were they just not prosecuted? Dia Compe was a huge company, I'm sure they patented everything. Is Johnny Chopper making Bottema forks, or is he making "Bottema-style" forks? I mean, there's the whole thing about drilling the fork caps...you drill the bottom, and now they're the exact same fork, but not. And if he makes retro forks that look like Bottema's, but have threadless steerer tubes...

Finally, what about the SS Goose bars and T/A race bars...c'mon people, how many gajillions of two piece bars have been made since BITD? The design is so universal, what intellectual property is he infringing upon? How many bars out there now are basically S&M Slam Bars warmed over? Is Chris Moeller suing everyone in sight? No, because he intentionally set off to replicate Woody Bars.

Well said JB. Jeff was not savy enough to patent any of it. And we in the USA love our given right to sue with crazy abandon!

But out of courtesy, Mr. Chooper has contacted me and I will put him in touch with Jeff. Perhaps Jeff should be paying as commission to Maico?

I respected the many opinions and just wish Jeff's storage unit had a few more sets of forks to sell you guys ;)

I go back to my don't give a **** attitude (as was pointed out), it's just silly kids bikes. I never thought of this as a business or investment.

I think I'll go to McDonalds and hopefully either get fat or burn myself so I can sue them.

Ben

Excellent points JB - another classic example is redline V bars - 5 minutes after they hit the market factories across asia were making replicas by the thousand. This is how the world works - there is no point trying to stamp it out, only to regulate it. A classic design will always be replicated, either as a tribute, as a blatant attempt to separate the gullible from their cash, or as a substitute for those who are unable to find or afford the real item. In JC's case he is clearly stating that these are repops. I agree JC should approach Jeff Bottema for some sort of "blessing", if only to smooth out any ill feeling (if it exists), but at the end of the debate he has done nothing dishonest, misleading or illegal. The JC forks look excellent and are a worthy tribute to a classic design

I feel ya Shannon ... BenOr everything that was said is in generallzation nothing was meant directly

money, money -money- moneh ......

Well it all comes down too what ole johnny boy f inds out wednesday. I dont forsee any of those frames seeing daylight. It's alot more complex then that what meets the eye.

Precisely DMG. If everyone could tell fake Redline bars 30 years ago, then maybe they should do the research on what they're shelling out for. Maybe they should look for the "REPRO" stamp.

bottom line.

NOBODY makes repop parts to "help out the community", and everybody knows it.

the only reason anybody makes repop parts is to MAKE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES.

they can make money only because there is a segment of the hobby that is happy with inexpensive similar looking parts on their vintage bikes.

the argument will never end because, as i've stated before, there are two very different hobbies sharing space here.

1. collectors. guys who enjoy hunting for and finding vintage stuff; to own, trade, study, and talk to other guys about.

2. enthusiasts. guys who want old school looking bikes; to ride, to show, to whatever.

same exact split exists in the sting-ray hobby, and the ballooner hobby, and the pre-war hobby, and every other collectible hobby i can think of. category #2 is responsible for knockoffs and repops in every hobby, to the chagrin of category #1. category #2 universally complains about the "elitists" of category #1, the high prices of original parts, and the inability to participate in the hobby due to the high costs. category #1 universally complains about category #2 "ruining" the hobby.

[ July 05, 2006, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: TIM ]

I don't have any problem with repops. All my rides are in use. So for me repops are a cheap alternative to go in old school style. I'll order the "Bottema" forks.

Cheers

Oliver

a clear member of category #2.

see?

Its unbelievable how the vintage bmx scene mirrors the happenings in the vintage skateboard world...

It all went bad when ebay and discussion forums came around.

I'm also thinking that johnny chopper should change his name, at the very least.

Let the real johnny chop rest in peace.

I have both Tim. What does that make me?
On second thoughts, don't answer that.....
I have real ones (skatepark model) on my childhood bike and hopefully one day I'll have JC's forks on my rider.
Thats all I'm saying in this thread.
Good day.

I'll just add this to the topic.

I have no problem witha reproduction part if it is either clearly marked as such or it is slightly different than the original item. Meaning that by eye the repro looks right but if one were to be inspected closely, It could be distinquished from the original by comparison measurement .

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread and for the product being repro'd.

Remember, there is only a market for this stuff if you guys buy it.

At least this discussion remained civil and I dont have to worry about my credibility questioned because of the country i'm from. Australia is a lot bigger than most people think it is.

I ride my stuff and for that reason, I buy reproduction or "inspired by" parts for the riders.

If I was doing a full resto on something unobtanum I would do it with only OG parts.

I got into the "vintage" hobby a couple years ago when I wanted bikes for my twin daughters and everything I found was Chinese junk. So I built a couple Mongoose bikes for them to RIDE and HAVE FUN ON like I did as a kid. They both have vintage parts on them, no repops. I will, however buy a couple sets of JC's SS Mongoose repops for them so I won't worry if one of my kids takes a digger and bends some originals. That is who repop parts are for, the enthusiast that uses the equipment. Not the purist that puts his stuff in a museum. NTTAWWT.

I have SX "Kos inspired" bars on my Kos because I can't find the real bars for a reasonable price right now AND I ride it hard and in the woods. I'd be bummed to tweak these bars but I'd be really bummed to tweak some originals. My Kos is an all around rider for downtown, singletrack in the forest, Tour de Fat, whatever.

Would you be as upset if Mongoose reproduced the SS bars using the original Maurice logo stamp and didn't mark them as repro? Sure there might be minute differences from the originals, but not as easily recognized as a "Repro" stamped right on the bar.

I just want to ride,

Dave

I don't buy the argument. I bought these a few weeks ago, I think you'll agree they're "affordable"-"rideable"-"available" and definatly not "unobtanum".

web page

if you're "not a purist", then why the need to have the correct looking bars on your daughters' riders? if you "just want to ride", then bars is bars. go to the local bike shop and buy a couple good quality bars for the bikes.

[ July 05, 2006, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: TIM ]