Oh, another thing I forgot to mention, I did read this entire thread, (including the lengthy one by Astro in its entirety). This business about soft goods and stickers being OK seems to be a contradiction.
One can't just pick and choose the parts of a story that back up their view and ignore the others.
The antique story specifically spoke items that would have to be "soft goods" - hand made quilts for instance.
Just an observation, flame away if you like. It is just why I try to stay away from using analogies (its that apples and oranges thing again).
-Pete.
Full Version: Repop alert!
Get fair dinkum guys your being rattled.
A question for TIM (I ask with much trepidation as I also try not to make things personal).
Your "once horribly rusted, now cherry" Proline ends up in the hands of a very happy enthusiast and the first thing he does is take it for a ride around the block to get a feel for it before he polishes it up and puts it on display with his other bikes.
But he drops off the kerb and the frame breaks in half! - has he been "scammed by a veteran" as you put it in one of your earlier posts?
Now before nuclear war breaks out I want to explain my reasons for asking this question.
I know of a number of bikes that have had people drooling ("veterans" and newbs alike) that look beautiful and are about as structurally sound as a paper mache ladder. These bikes are the genuine article and could be considered a preservation of BMX history but are bogged/sanded/painted and given pride of place at shows. To me this is more of a travesty than retro parts. (Don't let me get into my pet hate about scrap metal yards crushing bikes).
Until I read his post I would never have believed that Tim would consider selling a sub standard, prettied-up ride, especially one as sort after as a Proline - I know we are going to hear the good old "but I will tell the buyer exaclty what he is getting- full disclosure" line but then we are back to the "what about the guy two or three owners down the line" issue. You can't have it both ways guys.
Another question - have Prolines the same colour now devalued?, should we asked for a serial number and start a "wrecks register". Where does it end? (that was actually another three questions)
-Pete.
Your "once horribly rusted, now cherry" Proline ends up in the hands of a very happy enthusiast and the first thing he does is take it for a ride around the block to get a feel for it before he polishes it up and puts it on display with his other bikes.
But he drops off the kerb and the frame breaks in half! - has he been "scammed by a veteran" as you put it in one of your earlier posts?
Now before nuclear war breaks out I want to explain my reasons for asking this question.
I know of a number of bikes that have had people drooling ("veterans" and newbs alike) that look beautiful and are about as structurally sound as a paper mache ladder. These bikes are the genuine article and could be considered a preservation of BMX history but are bogged/sanded/painted and given pride of place at shows. To me this is more of a travesty than retro parts. (Don't let me get into my pet hate about scrap metal yards crushing bikes).
Until I read his post I would never have believed that Tim would consider selling a sub standard, prettied-up ride, especially one as sort after as a Proline - I know we are going to hear the good old "but I will tell the buyer exaclty what he is getting- full disclosure" line but then we are back to the "what about the guy two or three owners down the line" issue. You can't have it both ways guys.
Another question - have Prolines the same colour now devalued?, should we asked for a serial number and start a "wrecks register". Where does it end? (that was actually another three questions)
-Pete.
When I first started on vintage,the 3rd part I bought was fake,and was represented as real. It was an Aerospeed disc,not quickly apparent to me that it was fake,and in no way was it conveyed by the seller that it was fake (actual ebay deal).So not knowing,I sold it on to a big Hutch collector,who quickly slapped me down the stairs,saying I'm passing on fake Hutch stuff(OK,if anyone knows me,it's pretty tough to slap me down the stairs,i barely fit,but you get the point)So here I am,refunding the money on a purchase,and my name hastily added to the repro pile. So in other words,I was involutarily part of the problem.One thing I learned,if I didn't fish it out of someone's dingy basement,I don't want it,precisely why I bought these bars pictured,still reasonably priced,and not much of a question as to authenticity...
Its sad that this THREAD has more posts than URGENT HELP NEEDED has which is more important I.M.O.
[ May 01, 2006, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: waza007 ]
[ May 01, 2006, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: waza007 ]
This topic comes down heavy in many circles.
The most familiar to me is in aviation. For 16 years I fixed airplanes. (Now, I don't, but I am hoping that will come full circle again for me someday soon, cuz I'm good at it).
My dream job would be to restore a collection like "Cole Palen's" WW I collection, and make good money at it. Not just volunteer work, as is the norm.
It starts with the find, or in our VBMX language, the "Score". In this case, A Lockheed P-38 Lightning, 130 feet under the ice in Alaska. It is crushed from the pressure.
From that point on, NOBODY agrees. Should it be left exactly as found with the canopy keys, and helmet left in place on the seat, where left, and where found? Should it be brought back to the day it left the factory? Should it be brought back to the colors it wore during a major conflict? Should it be airworthy, or just show-worthy? What about "Original Parts!?....Ad nauseam.
As an aircraft tech. I want to bring it back to airworthy and see it fly! But, do you think you are going to do it with only factory fresh parts? No. Do you think that the landing gear has not been changed 5 times already? (In this case, the aircraft was new, and never made it to it's first destination, but let's not miss the point here).
I would start saving and repairing every piece that could be saved. Then I would make templates, and formers to start bending up "Fresh, New" sheet metal......You see, already, there are people who will argue to the death, that this is destroying history, and some vehemently backing the "preserving history" viewpoint. By my fabricating new sheet metal for the airplane, I am making "Re-pops" from scratch!!!!! Now, let's add another twist. When I am fabricating up the new sheet metal panel, should I duplicate, and reinstall, the "Scab Patch" that was made in the field, covering the bullet hole? Should I actually duplicate the bullet hole underneath the scab patch????......You see, it is an endless debate....
That broken fitting on the Wright Flyer. Leave it broken so the wing dangles precariously? or Make a new one, as true to original as possible, and display it proudly? Fix the tattered fabric as true to original as possible, or leave it as it was found in the barn????
It is a metaphysical, no win debate. Ultimately, the guy that scores the find gets to decide what will be done with it.It is their property, and their build!
In short, I feel, build it how you want it. It is your score. Someone is always going to disagree with you! Restorations of all types are inherently viewed strongly, with different views!
However, I do agree, that whoever makes parts for commercial sale, should ID them as a manufacturer.
[ May 01, 2006, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
The most familiar to me is in aviation. For 16 years I fixed airplanes. (Now, I don't, but I am hoping that will come full circle again for me someday soon, cuz I'm good at it).
My dream job would be to restore a collection like "Cole Palen's" WW I collection, and make good money at it. Not just volunteer work, as is the norm.
It starts with the find, or in our VBMX language, the "Score". In this case, A Lockheed P-38 Lightning, 130 feet under the ice in Alaska. It is crushed from the pressure.
From that point on, NOBODY agrees. Should it be left exactly as found with the canopy keys, and helmet left in place on the seat, where left, and where found? Should it be brought back to the day it left the factory? Should it be brought back to the colors it wore during a major conflict? Should it be airworthy, or just show-worthy? What about "Original Parts!?....Ad nauseam.
As an aircraft tech. I want to bring it back to airworthy and see it fly! But, do you think you are going to do it with only factory fresh parts? No. Do you think that the landing gear has not been changed 5 times already? (In this case, the aircraft was new, and never made it to it's first destination, but let's not miss the point here).
I would start saving and repairing every piece that could be saved. Then I would make templates, and formers to start bending up "Fresh, New" sheet metal......You see, already, there are people who will argue to the death, that this is destroying history, and some vehemently backing the "preserving history" viewpoint. By my fabricating new sheet metal for the airplane, I am making "Re-pops" from scratch!!!!! Now, let's add another twist. When I am fabricating up the new sheet metal panel, should I duplicate, and reinstall, the "Scab Patch" that was made in the field, covering the bullet hole? Should I actually duplicate the bullet hole underneath the scab patch????......You see, it is an endless debate....
That broken fitting on the Wright Flyer. Leave it broken so the wing dangles precariously? or Make a new one, as true to original as possible, and display it proudly? Fix the tattered fabric as true to original as possible, or leave it as it was found in the barn????
It is a metaphysical, no win debate. Ultimately, the guy that scores the find gets to decide what will be done with it.It is their property, and their build!
In short, I feel, build it how you want it. It is your score. Someone is always going to disagree with you! Restorations of all types are inherently viewed strongly, with different views!
However, I do agree, that whoever makes parts for commercial sale, should ID them as a manufacturer.
[ May 01, 2006, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
quote:This Tim, is where I stand behind you 100%
i'm strongly inclined not to stick those decals on anything, just as i'd be strongly inclined not to build an NOS frameset, or refinish an NOS part because i didn't like the color. once that stuff's gone, its gone.
an example.. at one time there were, i believe, THIRTEEN JMC factory team frames from 1977 - all with handpainted names of the factory rider on the downtube, basically the 1st dozen or so frames ever built - protypes among them.. several were lost to the ages. the 8 or 9 remaining frames survived unmolested for more than 20 years, until they entered circulation into the hobby. in 5 short years, only TWO remain in original condition with the downtube names intact - the Harry Leary frame i own, and Adam Cox's, which has been in his possession since he raced with it. that is more than sad. it is a waste. Jim Melton's son handpainted those names. it is pathetic that people want a shiny new finish more than preserving the history of those frames.
quote:I wouldn't do that; that man can clear a warehouse full of people in seconds....
This Tim, is where I stand behind you
This might finally explain how he comes up with all these rare items.
Hmmm, clear the warehouse, shop by yourself.....interesting insight....
Hmmm, clear the warehouse, shop by yourself.....interesting insight....
This is endless talk Some one step up to the plate and start a REPO com. for all the bikes and mark them and there in bis. Can you say $$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!! its all for the cash the first one WINS
My E-Pen is BIGGER then yours
[QUOTE] Is this the thread where the bangos are being repoped?
elvis.........
is this the cloning of the catholic church leader you're speaking of?
elvis.........
is this the cloning of the catholic church leader you're speaking of?
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