TIM
Mar 25 2006, 03:08 PM
there will be no names mentioned here.. just would like the good folks of VBMX to opine as to the situation.
i bought a 1st gen OM Flyer frameset and received delivery two weeks ago tomorrow.
i paid in cash.
frameset was described by seller as "no repairs, no rewelds, new powder, purchased from original owner. fork was described as NOS, but rechromed.
i purchased the frameset only to use as trade fodder to another person who wanted a 1st gen OM Flyer.
on Wednesday last, my trade partner swung by to get the frameset and close the trade deal. he took one look at the OM Flyer and said "this has been repaired, and poorly".
he pointed out the poor welds on the top and down tubes at both the headtube and seatmast junctures.
he pointed out the "cut-short" new tubing, which left ridges where the tubing met the headtube and seatmast.
he pointed out that the tubing wasn't even the correct size tubing for toptubes and downtubes.
he pointed out the heavy weight of the frame.
he pointed out the top tube was an inch longer than it should be, changing the entire geometry of the frame.
he said the fork looks to be a repro.
he pointed out the dropouts hang 1/2" below the bottom edge of the baloney cuts. then he pointed at the dropouts on my original OM Flyer's forks - where the dropouts line up flush with the bottom edge of the baloney cuts.
my trader partner rejected the OM Flyer in trade.
btw.. my trade partner has intimate knowledge of the design, dimensions, geometry, and materials of OM Flyers. he is a heavy hitter in the bmx industry with many many years in the business.
i immediately contacted the guy who sold me the frameset and explained the problems with the frame and the fact that i bought the frameset on the condition it was not repaired. i told him i felt real bad about it, and was sure he had been unaware of the problems with the frameset, as i had been - not having encyclopedic knowledge of OM Flyers.
his response:
Sorry to hear that XXXX isnt interested in the frame.As you know,I sold YOU the frame and not XXXX,your plans for the frame after our deal were completly out of my hands.I have to say I dont believe what XXXX is saying about the frame,My friend owned this frame since 81,it still had the orginal paint and stickers when I got it,they were just too scrached up to save so thats why it got new powdercoat.This is a early SE frame and as you know, SE had quality control problems then and that would explain the issue's you mention,similar to the SE crusier bars topic a while back on vintagebmx,six differnt orginal crusier bars and not one pair were the same as the other. I can only suggest that you sell the frame if your not happy with it.
so... am i correct to feel "tough tooties, if you don't like the frameset sell it to someone else" is not particularly good business? XXXX only pointed out to me that i had not received what i had paid for, less than 10 days after getting the frameset. i paid alot of money for a frameset that had "no repairs" and "no rewelds". i do not believe that is what i received.
i also believe that if the seller believes in this frameset he should have no problem refunding my money and selling it himself to another buyer. then he can stand behind the frameset with a clear mind. i on the other hand cannot sell this frameset to another person with a clear conscience without disclosing what i believe to be its "problems", which would obviously cut into its value quite substantially.
and btw, i did tell seller i would buy the frameset on the one condition that my trade partner approved of the frameset. the seller knows who XXXX is (and was) before the deal was finalized, and well aware of his bonifides.
i have always sold stuff on a "100% satisfaction or your money back" policy.
[ March 25, 2006, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: TIM ]
pk ripped
Mar 25 2006, 03:32 PM
I guess the only way to really find out is ot blast it down to the bare metal and see. Someone like Rod Miles could tell for sure.
Strange you didnt notice ANY of those varied issues your friend picked up on at first glance. I know you have a good eye and alot of experience yourself Tim, you didnt notice anything wrong?
Not to say right or wrong but the guy DOES have a point on early SE stuff being different from one batch to another. I would think it especially true with 1st gen. OM Flyers in 1979.
Good luck man.
[ March 25, 2006, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: pk ripped ]
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 03:37 PM
i confess i barely glanced at the frameset when it was delivered. i believed the seller's story and since i wasn't keeping it, i didn't go through the normal "ogling" period. plus, i've never seen a 1st gen OM in person or even looked at pics particularly close. i knew the basics - chainstay tubes with crossbar instead of lug, seatstays stop at seatmast rather than past to top tube. never had an interest in owning one.
[ March 25, 2006, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: TIM ]
forman
Mar 25 2006, 03:42 PM
boy oh boy tim you have a problem there! I really think this guy should take the frame back and he should sell it himself ,,if its what he says it is he should have no problem, small claims court!!!! would be my next move
pquinnbmx
Mar 25 2006, 03:42 PM
I think the original guy should refund it, but that's just me. Making things right sometimes means reversing a deal. I don't know all, and don't claim to, just seems to me reversing this deal may be the best for all. Although, I am assuming that 100% money back has not been offered or suggested, reading the response there? So, I guess we are talking about : should all deals be final? Great topic for discussion in the collecting world.
pk ripped
Mar 25 2006, 03:44 PM
I thought you had a 1st gen. OM, guess not.
quote:
heavy hitter in the bmx industry
I think almost every time a "old timer", pioneer, icon, etc. says something, its automatically the rock solid gospel truth. I have seen everyone from Mike Devitt, to Jeff Utterback to Perry Kramer say some VERY erroneous things about bikes, history, etc. The truth is, we have LIVED this stuff for years, like it happened yesterday, like we never left the 70s, they lived it 25+ years ago and have forgotten many details and facts. I guess all I am saying, is it possible your friend might be, dare I say...wrong?
[ March 25, 2006, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: pk ripped ]
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 04:11 PM
btw.. the seller seemed like a very nice guy. he delivered the frame to my home and we had a nice visit. i'm not claiming to be ripped off or scammed. my presumption is the seller wasn't aware of the frame's repairs either. i'm only claiming to be a dissatisfied customer looking for a refund. stores give ya 30 days in most cases.
Jet Black
Mar 25 2006, 04:35 PM
Freshly powdercoated old school frames usually reek of a coverup & I stay well away from them especially when being sold on ebay (not too sure where/how you got yours Tim), it is waay too easy to "hide" any of the repairs , make serial numbers disappear etc etc
Reading XXXX's reply sounds like the speel you'd get from a used car salesman if you bought a badly cut & shut muscle car off him that had a numbers job done on it to make it look like an original factory issued unit. His reply does not really address your issues about there not being any repairs or rewelds , it lightly touches on the problem with claims of a "friend" owning it since 1981.
I'd almost put money on his friend not having any pictures of the bike being ridden or a snapshot of it somewhere from bitd or the seller being able to produce a picture of the frame & forkset when it was in it's all scratched up unrestored condition , if he could show you some pix I'd retract my thoughts/statement immediately.He also changes the subject by taliking about the quality control on cruiser HANDLEBARS at the same time ???? Comparing handlebar quality control to frame & fork quality control is an apples & oranges thing.If the frame & fork set did come out of the SE factory with all these modifications excess weight & incorrect tubing lengths etc etc , I'd be very surprized if it went out via the front door.SE from what I read SE had supply problems with their frames , not so much bizzaro world quality control isues with their frame + forks.
XXXX clearly isn't concerned about him selling you what appears to be a _bad_ frame with matching forks for good money , the general attitude of it's not my problem now & his suggestion to offload it onto someone else reeks of a sell & burn merchant...
I only put one condition on my opinion here , there are at least 3 sides to a story , from what I've read XXXX seems like a ratbag , but I would like to hear/read his version of the events as they unfolded.
I believe Tim to be level headed & genuinely fair when trying to sort out the ethics behind what each party in a transaction can reasonably expect to get out of an honest sale.
It still reads reads like you have gotten royally screwed over in a hefty $$$ deal the deal here Tim & if you believe you are stuck with a piece of garbage you won't be onselling an expensive problem that you bought in _good faith_ to an innocent 3rd party.
XXXX ??? whats your take on the transaction , is Tim just whining & his friend clueless about early SE stuff or what ?
JB
jeffry1970
Mar 25 2006, 04:39 PM
if i were the person that sold you this frame,and like your seller said i knew the person that owned it since 81'and there was no doubt in my mind that it was original i would have a problem refunding your money hust because XXXX said it was repaired.
also it would rub me the wrong way if this alleged expert told me this frame wasnt original when i positively know it was.
jeffry1970
Mar 25 2006, 04:45 PM
jet black i disagree with you.you have to look at it from the sellers point of view.if you know for a fact its original and some guy tells you its not what would you think?i have a few of my bikes from bitd and one has been re-podered,it has never been repaired as im the original owner.i dont have one single picture of any of my bikes from back then.
im not taking sides all im saying is you have to keep an open mind and lok at the situation from both sides of the fence.
ol'phart
Mar 25 2006, 05:22 PM
screw that - give me back my loot, its to questionable, not in accordince with the terms of the agreement and I'm simply not comfortable with the purchase ....... or feel the wrath --- --- the end
G-Flash
Mar 25 2006, 05:30 PM
TIM, Any chance this could have been a one off prototype or factory R&D frame?
jeffry1970
Mar 25 2006, 05:41 PM
the RIGHT thing to do would be refund your money.i understand him being bothered by the deal falling through because of the situation i mentioned above but he should just give your money back.
Walter
Mar 25 2006, 06:02 PM
all im gonna say is do your homework in this hobby..........
Jet Black
Mar 25 2006, 06:09 PM
A quick note to Jeffry1970
"I only put one condition on my opinion here , there are at least 3 sides to a story , from what I've read XXXX seems like a ratbag , but I would like to hear/read his version of the events as they unfolded."
The three sides to a story part should cover my attempts to show some overall objectivity & attempted lack of bias.
For the record Tim did help settle/mediate a comparitively minor ~$20 ebay problem I had here when I was fresh to this forum. So maybe I am biased ?
I would like to hear what XXXX has to say especially if the F+F was sold as
"no repairs, no rewelds, new powder, purchased from original owner. fork was described as NOS, but rechromed."
Being able to see the rewelds after a fresh powder coating sounds wrong one way or the other.
Not buying a freshly powdercoated frame (or a car for that matter) is a personal policy of mine. I didn't have to learn the hard way but a lot of my friends when growing up & getting into hotrods etc did. I'll always stay away from old stuff that has had a fresh coat of paint put on it & is immediately put up for sale.I've seen "ugly" turn up very quickly from under a pretty exterior too many times.
I hope all the facts can come to the table & be objectively viewed by all , good faith , reputation & making things right properly & not in a half***ed attempt that is an insult to the buyer means a lot to most of us.
If I were to sell any of my old skool bikes & questions arose as to their authenticity I'd ask who was the expert claiming they weren't the real Mc Coy ? I am in a position to show pictures , documents etc from bitd as to how authentic my stuff is , I'd actually feel amused if it was questioned. Always cover your *** is another lesson I learnt a long time ago. I'm not being a smart *** this is the way I have always done "business" honest & clean.
Back to Tim's dilemma......
JB
Dave Muggleston
Mar 25 2006, 06:11 PM
If I'm reading TIM's post correctly, XXXX is TIM's trading-partner-slash-SE-expert. XXXX and the seller are two different people. What follows is based on this assumption.
If XXXX is right, and the frame has been repaired, the seller should take it back.
But if XXXX is WRONG, and the frame is original, its perceived value has now been reduced signifigantly. Any prospective buyer will ask "isn't that the OM that TIM and XXXX--the EXPERTS--said was repaired?" The seller ends up stuck with a hot potato, and his reputation suffers, just because of someone's erroneous opinion.
[ March 25, 2006, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Dave Muggleston ]
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 06:27 PM
Dave..
exactly the reason i have no intention to mention the seller's name or provide any other details about the frameset - color for instance. there have been 1st gen OMs floating around on a semi-regular basis.
it is what it is. the dilemma is i have no reason to think the seller is dishonest, but i have no reason to think my trade partner XXXX is mistaken. XXXX wants a 1st gen OM badly, he has 1st hand knowledge of these frames and forks. no one would doubt his knowledge if i told you his name. i'm not embellishing the story one iota. just trying to get a feel for if my position on a refund is reasonable or not.
note i said "reasonable".
i am NOT calling anyone out.
[ March 25, 2006, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: TIM ]
twintoptuber
Mar 25 2006, 06:28 PM
quote:
and btw, i did tell seller i would buy the frameset on the one condition that my trade partner approved of the frameset. the seller knows who XXXX is (and was) before the deal was finalized, and well aware of his bonifides.
SELLER has to refund your money because the total deal was contingent upon XXXX buying it. XXXX isn't purchasing the frame for whatever reason, SELLER should take it back. If he's not taking it back, he's not honoring his side of the deal. Period.
Most people try to swing a multi-man circus trade without alerting others about it. Going by your statements, you fully disclosed the path of the deal and if SELLER sold you the frameset on those terms, he needs to take it back.
Don't ever confuse your "selling policy" with another man's. If your "policy" was to be incorporated into the terms of the deal, fine. If not, means nothing. Most may see this as cold or callous, but a deal's value is only fully gained until all parties honor the original agreed upon terms.
[ March 25, 2006, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: twintoptuber ]
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 06:32 PM
to clarify...
the seller is "seller"
my trade partner is "XXXX"
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 06:36 PM
quote:
TCookDist@aol.com wrote:
i have serious interest. $x,xxx is fine, with one contingent. i plan to send it on to someone else in a trade deal (the deal has always been contingent on ME finding him a 1st gen OM). i emailed the guy to be sure your frameset meets his needs.
TIM
Thats fine Tim, I just looked at the serial # and its #xx not xx, hope this doesnt change things for ya. Dont mean to be nosy but whatcha tradin for?
Walter
Mar 25 2006, 06:38 PM
thanks for the explanation TIM.........
[ March 25, 2006, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: TONE ]
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 06:42 PM
upfront all the way that the f/f was moving directly on to another person in exchange for other considerations.
XXXX cleared the deal based on a couple pictures of the f/f, which confirmed for him it was a 1st gen; i told him there were no repairs based on the seller's description - he said "cool". as soon as he held it in his hands up close and personal, however, he no longer approved.
[ March 25, 2006, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: TIM ]
jeffry1970
Mar 25 2006, 06:50 PM
so one of them is mistaken the question is which one?sucks that your caught in the middle.
jeffry1970
Mar 25 2006, 06:52 PM
i would say regardless of the frame sets history you should get a refund based on the e-mail you posted above.
twintoptuber
Mar 25 2006, 06:55 PM
No need to get into any other "what if's" on the deal, frameset condition, color, etc.... he needs to keep his side of the deal and refund the money.
Period.
Case closed.
DMG
Mar 25 2006, 07:04 PM
I find it strange that Tim is seeking our approval of a deal that seems to be clear cut via the email excerpts?
jeffry1970
Mar 25 2006, 07:08 PM
i agree tim should get a refund but a soon as tim posted it here the frames history is now a issue especially if your the seller.
hes stuck with a frame that is said to be repaired and such by a alleged expert,when the seller claims to know other wise.
we all know to beware of any first generation om flyers from california.
Ted Carl
Mar 25 2006, 09:11 PM
Interesting read.
That is one reason I like Paypal. It is worth the fees to be protected IMO.
I got a Sting that was "Clearly" recovered from a warranty claim 20 years ago (Dumpster diving trash). The S/N was ground to void further warranty claims, and it was cracked in no less than 6 places. Rusty on the back side badly. I filed the claim with paypal and they froze the money in his account, as the item was nowhere near described. I got my money back by force. Paypal told him that the pictures I submitted validated my claims, in contrast to his ad".
Jeff makes a very valid point. If I truly believed that it was genuine, and knew the history of it, I might tell someone to kiss off too. I would most likely just give you your money back no matter what, but my way of doing things have no bearing here.
In a deal like that, where there was a "contingent", and it was hand delivered, I would have not paid a cent, until the trader approved it.
I guess if I was shopping for a buddy, (which I have done) and I paid for it before I knew my buddy wanted it, I would accept the fact that it was a gamble (my gamble, not his), and that I might have to unload it on eBay if my buddy doesn't want it.
I would have told the guy, "I need to see if my buddy wants this, If he likes it , I'll give you this much $xx for it on Tuesday." If not I'll deliver the frameset back to you on Tuesday. If he didn't like the terms, tough teatty.
It is a shame. But it could be an early handbuilt version, or something. Maybe you can ask the OM?
Once cash changes hands, it is usually tough to deal with people.
I just sent a guy cash VIA PayPal, for another Sting. He sent me a tracking number. But I have gone with my instincts. I may get hosed. But I paid with paypal, and I have all the emails saved. Paypal can, and will, freeze his account, if I don't receive a bike. Ebay is not perfect, and neither is paypal, but it has some serious securities built in to it.
I never transfer green cash, and expect that I can ever get it back. I accept the gamble and learn the lesson, and drive on. It is indeed sad that so many people don't have stronger ethics, but, that is why I always try to stay on top of the terms, and in control of the deal, by approving my goods before I hand real greenbacks over.
Sorry about your dillema Tim....what a drag...
[ March 25, 2006, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
Elvis
Mar 25 2006, 09:17 PM
Since you asked for an opinion:
I know how I'd handle this deal, and while not the same I can see the seller's point (more or less) in handling this deal.
If it was me and I sold you the frame and the frame didn't measure up to the expectations of your buyer, I'd buy it back from you, refund, whatever. I'd do so because it would only help my reputation in future deals. Meanwhile I'd find someone else to buy the frame and would report that one previous buyer wasn't so happy about it (and here's why...).
If I'd already spent the money we'd work something out, I'm sure, both of us being reasonable people.
At the same time the seller appears to feel that he sold you what he said he sold you and if your buyer's being a tool that's more your problem than his. To be honest, he's got a point. And by that point if he doesn't want to issue a refund he's within rights.
So all that out of the way, it sounds like you're stuck with a frame in a deal which got center-hung. Sorry. It's not your fault, but it is your outcome.
TIM
Mar 25 2006, 09:23 PM
further clarification...
you may note that the seller asked me in the posted email what the trade deal was. i told him the who & what & the terms of the pending trade. he knew who was getting the f/f, what i was getting back, and the importance of being ernest. so to speak.
i'm not mad at the seller. i'm just shocked that he wouldn't undo the deal in light of the issue that came up. seemed a good guy no brainer to me. i've refunded some BIG money to buyers in the Sting-Ray days. $,4000+ in one case cause the buyer didn't like the seat (a tiny rub mark on the seat tag.) never crossed my mind to tell him to go pound sand.
BRIAN HAYS
Mar 25 2006, 09:24 PM
Any chance you can get in touch with the "freind that owned it since 81"? Just to see what he claims/remembers? Don't know that it would solve anything. Just asking.
[ March 25, 2006, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: BRIAN HAYS ]
pjbaz
Mar 25 2006, 09:52 PM
I want to mention the Paypal thing the other guy was talking about.
I got snagged (as did several other guys on here) from a [I tried to curse] on ebay recently. I'm out a whopping $9.54. I tried to file with Paypal but missed the 45 day deadline because I gave the loser the benefit of the doubt. Other's on here lost more $, filed, and Paypal agreed with them...but since [I tried to curse] doesn't have any $ in his account nobody gets refunded anything.
Keep that in mind.
I would refund the $ if I was the seller.
Good luck Tim.
bmxbuzz
Mar 25 2006, 10:04 PM
Can we see some pics? I'd like to see what the "frame mods" look like. Hopefully all of you can work it out. I'm almost tempted to buy it just to say I have that OM Flyer...
Ken Pliska
Mar 25 2006, 10:42 PM
You all know my opinion.
I trust whomever Tim's expert was/is. I find it difficult to comprehend that someone won't even offer a refund on this just to put it to rest.
I've dealt with Tim numerous times on and off of eBay. Only one time he didn't approve of one item in a multi-item (non-eBay) deal and asked if he could return for a refund. He sent it back and I refunded his money and that was that. Both parties were satisfied and we went on to the next deal.
My advice. Seller, offer Tim a refund and if you can't pony up all of the coin right now, make a payment plan.
Ted Carl
Mar 25 2006, 10:44 PM
I'm with ya Tim, I'll do business with you any day of the year.
The world would be a far better place if people had business ethics like yourself, and myself, and so many others here.
Sadly, other types take advantage of that disposition when it is least expected. Very disappointing indeed.
Take heart Tim. What comes around, goes around. Maybe not today, or tomorrow, but eventually when they are least expecting it, it does. He will get his.....
And maybe it will still work out? Maybe OM will jump in here and tell you that the ones he personally welded up when he was trying to learn to weld were different like that.....???
Randy
Mar 26 2006, 01:32 AM
First off, those 1st OM's broke often, thats why they kept changing the design. SE would take them back and either fix or replace, I wonder if a repaired frame was sold as NEW to the original owner who Tim's seller bought it from.
Secondly, in the sellers defense, taking a frameset to my powder coater for a strip & refinish normally doesn't allow me to ever see the frame bare, which would clearly reveal a repair. So I can see how this can happen.
It would take an absolute expert to identify the repairs and alterations, and Tim claims XXXX to be so.
The seller needs to refund based on the repairs, whether he knew of them or not. I going to guess he didn't if he knows Tim and XXXX.
Really is sad, everyone loses here.
Keep_It_Warm
Mar 26 2006, 05:02 AM
quote:
Really is sad, everyone loses here.
Chuck Nor.....err, I mean TIM doesn't lose...he let's others save face.
[ March 26, 2006, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Keep_It_Warm ]
Keep_It_Warm
Mar 26 2006, 05:04 AM
I'm certainly no 1st Gen OM expert, but Randy seems to make a few plausible points.
NBKA-SENSEI
Mar 26 2006, 09:42 AM
because of the email you have, you have a small claims case for sure.... you are do a refund...
TIM
Mar 26 2006, 07:27 PM
btw... i've gotten no responses to my followup emails to the seller. "tough tooties" is looking more & more like his final word.
Criscobath
Mar 27 2006, 10:24 AM
That sucks. You should get a refund. Good luck.
TuRBo Todd Britton
Mar 27 2006, 01:11 PM
Once, I sold a bike that didn't meet expectations, I took it back and gave a refund. Once I bought a frame that was lied about it's condition, I was told "tough." As for you Tim, if you feel screwed over, don't call the guy out. Just offer the frame in the For Sale section here, and mention who used to own it!
twintoptuber
Mar 27 2006, 04:31 PM
If he doesn't want to hold up his end of the deal, do the community a favor and expose him. Why allow others to potentially do a deal with a seller not intererested in honoring his side?
Think it's fair to say that if the tables were turned, most would be pounding away at their keyboards to openly bury Tim. Ha!
spike
Mar 27 2006, 05:49 PM
If you bust the deal you face the wheel.
MNW
Mar 27 2006, 06:00 PM
Does that guy in the background have a breast in the middle of his chest?
Sknight88
Mar 27 2006, 06:14 PM
How about a picture of this beast? I think that would go a long way.