RCain
Dec 29 2005, 06:54 PM
quote:
MORE NEW RULES = LESS NEW RIDERS
Amen!
quote:
....What if that same Proline Junior became a 17 pound bike (cheaper) and it WAS for sale at all the stores for 189 dollars, and labeled as an "ABA Racing Certified" beginners class bike?
Im sure Redline would be enthusiastic about dropping quality and dealing through dept stores instead of bike shops (have you seen whats happened to the reputations of bike companies that have decided to sell through dept stores? (GT, Schwinn, Mongoose) If not then this quote:
the much maligned Wal-Mart Goose
) should be a hint.
And Im sure that the ABA would be stoked about attatching their good name to a heavy "cheap" bike.
And Im sure that Wal-Mart would be willing to drop their current suppliers so that they could latch onto the shirttails of the current BMX boom
As much as you think this is a good idea, in reality it is unnessassary and simply not going to happen.
Recruit 3 new riders to replace the one that quit because he couldnt win on his Wal-Goose.
steef
Dec 29 2005, 07:15 PM
I didn't spend a fortune on my son's bike, which is older than he is. ('94 GT Pro Series Jr with 1 3/8's, bought for $100 + 25 shipping two and a half years ago off the bay) It's not new, nor vintage but it's shiny chrome. I bought it because I thought it would be a perfectly aceptable first bike because it would last him a few years, and it would be raceable. You'd think there would be plenty of decent used minis around because kids grow. It is just a matter of getting more kids interested. Sheer numbers will even out the riding field. Kids with better bikes may get bumped up a class a little bit sooner. It's not all about winning anyways. You can't have that many winners. It's about having fun, meeting friends, racing your friends, and just plain having fun.
Ted Carl
Dec 29 2005, 09:48 PM
quote:
Suzie had gone up to the sign up window to figure out how to sign her two boys up when she was informed that their bikes were too light for the beginner class so they would both be racing against the intermediates today.
Simple, their first race ever in Novice class, they get to race what they borrowed, and break the rules, so what, it's their first race. It would not be that complicated, unless you want it to be....Then they go buy a 17 or 20 pound bike from the LBS, or Target for their second race. ....No, Redline would not want to sell through Target. But they might have a model that the LBS would carry in stock, or would sell better, since all Novices could use them, and they would be ready to add the lighter parts later.
Out of curiosity...Would anybody here that is so against the idea, be personally affected by this type of a rule?
Everybody hates change, even when it doesn't affect them personally. Eventually the change becomes the norm.
quote:
And Im sure that the ABA would be stoked about attatching their good name to a heavy "cheap" bike.
This statement is the most interesting one....Since when was a 17 or a 20 pound bike heavy, and cheap? ...Embarrass the ABA's good name over endorsing a 17 pound or a 20 pound racing bike!? Think about that ...My son's Redline expert is 21 pounds, so, according to your statement, adding a 20 pound ABA Race Certified sticker would make this one heavy and cheap and embarrass the ABA for endorsing it as an entry level regulation bike?! Tell Redline you just said that, ...all they would have to do to their Expert model is put a sticker on it, and the Dad could even make it lighter too!
The only thing different would be that all the 8-12 Novices would be on similar bikes, and they could all be store bought easily!!!....They would more than likely still sell a 13.9 pound "Flight Mini" to the kid eventually as well!
It's not like I suggested attaching a ball and chain to the kids. Only make it easier, and more affordable for younger kids to start racing with a leveler playing field.
My kid will learn to win and lose on the one he has, because I think learning what loses races is the best way to learn how to win them. I am more patient than most new parents with people telling me to buy my kid a new bike. I still think the classes are losing riders, because other parents see a money pit, and they only see bikes they can't buy in stores, and pull out early.
Racer
Dec 29 2005, 10:16 PM
If the ABA or NBL added a state team points, it would be easy to determine whos a bike shop and even benifit the shop.
Each shop would send in a picture of the store front along with a copy of the business liscence.
They then would recieve a "Official ABA/NBL Bike Shop Team" sticker for the shop window (reverse screened so it goes on the inside).
Each bike shop team then has a official roster with the members ABA/NBL ID. Only riders on the current roster can be used and teams can simply log in from any lap top to check.
nationals and all multi point races would count. Then if its successfull and easy to implement it make it so all races count.
I can just see it now 'Dude is fast, hella fast who is he?'
'Thats Jason Holeshot he rides for Mo-Better-Bikes the number one Bike Shop Team in Texas!'
cyclecraftsteve
Dec 29 2005, 10:18 PM
I built a bike as soon as I found out I was going to be a father - for my kid to race. It's a Powerlite junior, weighing in at 13 pounds 3 ounces. My daughter, now 8, is starting to take an interest in the sport and wishes to start racing next spring. She'll have a full uniform (it's a lot harder falling on paved turns than on dirt) and full face helmet, and will have been riding rollers for several months in the winter to get her spin. Should she not be allowed to start out as a beginner?
Ted Carl
Dec 30 2005, 03:11 AM
FWIW, I don't think anyone should really get upset when we are throwing ideas around...but you can if you want I guess....I know I am not about to get upset about anything.
I was "Shopping" at a secret bike place a couple of months ago for OS stuff. This place did a bicycle seminar for a company. "How to work on your bike". Aparently, a company bought 12 brand new Mongoose BMX bikes, and these volunteers showed some people how to put these bikes together, and work on them.
These bikes were all just sitting there, and I inquired about buying them all for a track as loaners. But they would not sell them to anybody, they agreed with the company that paid for them, that they would "Donate" them to someplace specific. No Dice.
If a guy could sneak in on a deal like that, or if the ABA would spring a deal with a Manufacturer, and ante up for them, and have 8 decent showroom type bikes, all identical, at a track ready to race. ...It would be interesting to take the original motos of 7 through 11 year olds, at a big race with fuller gates, and after the 3 qualifying rounds, offer a Trophey Dash/bonus race, of sorts, for 1st through 8th place donated prizes, to the 7-11 year old Novice class only.
...Basically do a re-run of all the initial round one motos, and secretly compare the results to the first gate of qualifying, with everyone using an equal bike, pedaling for the best donated prizes, in a special half time show race. Video taped no less.
It would be interesting to see if the packs were closer, or farther apart, and if the kids placed the same as they did in qualifying round one, on their own bikes. And see if the racing was harder fought and more exciting, or spread wider......
I guess something like that would be the way to experiment with the concept...
wow, this is getting rediculously funny.....how did it go from......
Would you race again if they built 80s style tracks to the weight of beginners bikes ?
I think there is already a thread just for this isn't there?
Besides if they put those "adding a 20 pound ABA Race Certified stickers" on bikes at Target and/or WalMart or anyother store, don't you think people that weren't even thinking about BMX now would not even purchase a bike with that on it because it had that sticker saying it was "Race certified". That would scare people away from even purchasing the bike then. That would really make those stores happy. Let's just **** everyone off.
B. Apold
Dec 30 2005, 07:36 AM
I think this is all great info every is talking about but I don't think anything will ever be done about it.
kids that start racing today are born into the style of tracks we have now and its all they know. Does the average kid complain about the track and its obsticals? I think todays tracks are alot of fun and very techincal, but there not as fast as tracks from our day, and thats cool...
Paul Springer
Dec 30 2005, 09:42 AM
Hi Guys,
Another Minnesota boy representin the VBMX days! I just stumbled accross this site a few days ago... I walked right in to the Chat and there was Steef. I finally had some time to go through the site a little more and I stumbled accross Shawn Sheely's name, I used to race a little with him and a guy named Eric Levander in & outdoors. Raced at Shorewood, Richfield, Brooklyn Park, The Armory, St. Paul Civic Center etc... Pretty much raced from 76-82 finishing my career at the NBL Grand Nationals in Pittsburgh PA. at the South Park track getting 7th in the Novice Class. I now live in Rogers MN and have 4 & 6 year old little girls and very seriously want to get them in to BMX. It's great to see how heavy duty serious and passionate you guys are to get this going OS style. Consider me in if you guys want help with anything. Hopefully I won't become another kooky opinion and look forward to getting something going here in Minnesota! I look forward to maybe meeting a few of your guys in person soon to maybe talk details... Maybe something is already going that I am unaware of? I am a little freaked out how somehow I found this site including the local MN interest... Spooky huh?
Paul
RCain
Dec 30 2005, 10:28 AM
Ted,
I for one dont get po'd over internets drama, as a matter of fact I can appreciate your sincere desire to improve the sport, it shows. Please understand, a mini or junior race bike is a specialty item, Target would never sell enough of them to warrant carrying a Mini race line of bike, as you know, alot of bike shops dont stock them for this same reason. They do not make a good daily rider. Most int. or experts dont ride factory stock bikes(as you have pointed out) this leaves Target with just 5-11 yr old novs as a customer base. If someone took the time to count all of the 5-11 yr old novs in both sanctions, youd probably come up with a number close to the number of bikes that a national chain store sells DAILY.
quote:
Hopefully I won't become another kooky opinion
lol, yeah I dont need the competition.
[ December 30, 2005, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: RCain ]
Ted Carl
Dec 30 2005, 06:59 PM
What's so dammed kooky about Yaks, and Holstiens!?
quote:
how did it go from......
Would you race again if they built 80s style tracks to the weight of beginners bikes ?
You forgot; Barbed Wire Tires, Yaks, Side Hack Yaks, Frozen Clay, Mother's Jackets, Ashtabulas, Holstiens, Shark and Alligator water hazards, How to really ride at 15 below zero, Split tracks, Toe Clips, and ....did I miss anything? lol
You have a bunch of people that lived for BMX, and will try anything to help it stay healthy, and fun. Why we rode, moved to keeping kids racing I guess.
Paul, Paul, ....Pauley......I have Eric Lavander, and his 69 Camaro all there quite clearly. I have seen Mandy a few years ago........or "Amanda" as she insists on now. (She was not very nice after I called her Mandy). ..... but I can't quite put a face and a last name to Paul......
It can be kooky, but everyone loves the bikes, and the memories.....Welcome to VBMX Pauly.....
quote:
I think there is already a thread just for this isn't there?
Maybe, but if it does not have Yaks, Sharks, Holsteins, and coverage of the Sno- Cone Nationals, it can't hold a candle to this one, so why bother with that one!....
quote:
I think this is all great info every is talking about but I don't think anything will ever be done about it.
A most likely scenario!
steef
Dec 31 2005, 12:05 AM
OK, now we've got 4 MN guys posting here. At the September VBMX gathering, Shawn Sheely was looking for Volunteers to talk to the MPLS Park and Rec board about developing a dirt jumps area. Maybe we could work with that and try to see if we could do a track with dirt jumps. All of us here live outside of the MPLS city limits, but a lot of the MORC people that have been involved with the Theo Wirth Urban Singletrack live outside, too. I'd rather have a track than dirt jumps, but we'd have to talk to Shawn and see if it's feasible, first. I work in South Minneapolis, and live close enough. There's some law in Minnesota that if you don't charge "rent" i.e. entry fees for use of private land (I don't know how it applies to public land) that you're not held liable for accidents that occur. Anyhow, if it could be a BMX track, centrally located, with no sanctions, and possibly getting bike shops to donate money for ribbons, or trophies, with no entry fees for the event, just kids racing friends for fun. The kids that like it could go on to race sanctioned races, otherwise, it's all just for fun.
Elvis
Dec 31 2005, 09:43 AM
No offense kids, but: How many of you people have actually recruited a noob in the past 12 months?
The kid will race whatever bike they show up on, they will be happy. They will race whatever track is in front of them, they will be happy. They may or may not make the main, they may or may not bring home a trophy, they will be happy.
I speak from experience; I speak from repeated experience.
I'm heading out in a few hours to do some more recruiting, and I'll advise of the national zeitgeist has changed in the past 48 hours (since the last parent I pitched). Check with the ABA if you doubt me, but I'm telling you what it took to blow the top off our new member signups in the past year.
You're way, way, way over thinking this, it's not what the sanction does, it's not what the bike maker does, it's not what the store does, or the track operator, or the monkey in the tree or whateverinthehell, it's what _you_ do, you, you.
You walk up to somebody, you tell 'em it's fun, you give them the schedule, you answer their questions, you do it over and over and over again and you get more people BMXing. That's it, it's simple. It's hard work, it's one at a time, but it is what it is. Serve donuts, give pony rides, I don't give a sh1t, you want to chop down a tree you just got to keep swinging the ax. You can talk about axes all day long and debate the merits of which one is best for the job, or what tree looks best when felled, but ain't no tree falling without someone swinging an ax again' it. Boom, that simple. You want wood, chop down a tree.
You want more people racing, you go recruit racers. You want to do more, build a track, grunt out some loaner bikes, help rake the berms, hey, cool, thanks for the help. But all in, it's in the pitching the sport, over and over and over. Do that.
Cash Matthews
Dec 31 2005, 12:23 PM
Elvis makes an interesting point worthy of consideration. BMX is indeed largely a volunteer army of workers. None of the other sports that has massive success works in that fashion. Perhaps that is the genesis of the issues that surround our sport.
But back to the question, Yes, I would race more if the tracks were easier. There is one vote.
Though some think this post is ridiculous, I couldn't disagree more. We are like Congress, and we talk about stuff before enacting legislation that causes work to be done. And I certainly don't think that bringing more racers into the sport and making provisions for cheaper bikes to be possible as a source of *&$%*$ off the Wal Marts of the world. I think the more possible riders we entice, the better our sport is. And if it causes them not to buy WalMart bikes and they end up back in the bike shop where they should have been in the first place, didn't we just do a good thing then?
According the the aba, 72% of their riders are between 6 and 14. That to me is their core group of customers and the group that should be addressed. This post morphed from "would you race more if..." to, "why we don't race as much now" to, "how to grow the sport" which ultimately is at the heart of the original question. Good stuff all the way around.
[ December 31, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Cash Matthews ]
osrlracer
Dec 31 2005, 02:31 PM
ELVIS, your last post sounds alot like an evangelical preacher ! yes I would race more if the tracks were more 70s like !
Cash Matthews
Dec 31 2005, 02:48 PM
Elvis:
As I contemplate running a track, I see it is an evil capitalistic opportunity whose goal is to make a profit and whose basis is growing the sport of bmx. If we grow the sport, then profits will come. Here is my vision of the perfect bmx track:
1. For Profit.
2. Fixed restroom/snackbar/business facility
3. Paid help for snackbar/sign up/ etc. barter for entry fees on low maintenance items like sign up and scoring. Make the burger stand the best in the area where people look forward to going to the track for some quality food.
4. Paid help who's responsibility is weekly track maintenance. This person might actually occupy a home on the grounds of the track. Perhaps I would pay for the home in exchange for track maintenance.
5. Massive beginners program at the track including "learn how to ride your bike" programs through the local bike shops. How many parents would love help teaching their kids bicycle safety? A huge bike safety program would garner much support from the local community and government.
6. Paid practice days.
7. On site used bike shop to help people enter the sport easier. Have repurchase agreements where the shop agrees to buy back any bike from its purchaser at some point in the future.
8. Easy bmx track with a left hand first turn for beginners, everyone 0-13, all cruisers and girls, and a right first turn expert track (both tracks share one extra wide starting hill with lanes) for 14 + x and pros. If you go left, it is no clips. If you go right, you only race on the track after signing an extra libability waiver that states,"if you ride in clips, you will be seriously injured, and possibly break your femur or worse". I would put that in their just to have some fun, so don't bash me on that one please!
9. As a track operator, I would run monthly series to keep everyone interested.
10. I have heard that the ABA has a scholarship program but have been unable to locate information on it. Somehow, we could turn trophies and stamps into education.
There are many great ideas out there, and many great track operators who have given much of their lives to the sport. I may not even be the right guy to run a track, but these ideas may have merit.
Cash Matthews
Elvis
Dec 31 2005, 07:09 PM
quote:
sounds alot like an evangelical preacher
Not an accident, I'm evangelizing the notion that for BMX to grow, each and every (f'ing) one of us needs to grow it. It'd be nice to grow it by 20 members at a time, but until that day it'll take one member at a time.
I pitched three families today, one in particular I have hope for, you?
quote:
1. For Profit.
It would be easier, no doubt. The trouble is the front-end capital if this is your plan, but I can dig it.
From there, hey, it's your track, do it as you will. Personally I think the "too hard for noobs" thing is a myth, but that's me, and despite my confident stance I could be wrong (it's doubtful, me being an Internets genius and all, but still....). Look, I throw a party, I get to pick the music, you throw a party, same deal. The weekend's over and they say they like Cash's party better (is that a dead cow on Elvis's lawn?), that's how it works.
quote:
5. Massive beginners program
I smell golf, good. You're just one step beyond my call. I say "get 'em in the door" and you say "get 'em in the door and entertain them." How can I fault that? The point being, however, and we appear to be aligned on this, we got to get them folks in the door.
Zing, back to my point: It all comes down to all, everyone, bringing people in. The entire frickin' community needs to be attuned to the need to recruit noobs. Your points, on noob retention, are sound, but they are past my point of bringing in the noobs.
I got, in effect, a track, and I do the things I think need to be done to create retention, but that's so far past the real point of just increasing brand awareness. Think of it this way, I recruited X amount of people today, nice people and I hope they come back. But let's say they don't for whatever reason. They now have BMX in their brain. When it comes up, in wherever, they'll have some emotion toward BMX, on going to the BMX track, on racing, on their kid racing. BMX will have mindshare.
I walk up to 95 percent of the people in my world and say "Soccer" (or "bowling" or "lawn darts") and they have some emotion toward that, some mind share. I say "BMX" and they say "what?" That's what we're fixing by buttonholing strangers, the mindshare, the awareness. Of all the people of all the hooey going on in their world they got BMX as one of the things swirling by. That's what we're doing when we hand Mom a brochure, we're upping the mindshare.
One at a time, like Johnny Appleseed planted trees, we're just going one at a time, the Johnny Appleseeds of BMX.
Call the ABA Monday morning, have them send you a couple dozen brochures. Plant some trees.
Reilley1
Dec 31 2005, 07:15 PM
Apparently we got off the subjects again, so.....Don't forget the yaks
Cash Matthews
Dec 31 2005, 07:30 PM
I esteem Elvis's thoughts and appreciate him greatly as a human. Thanks Alex, and know that I take what you say to heart!
Ted Carl
Jan 1 2006, 04:14 AM
....Elvis may not be talking about Yaks anymore, but we are still busy Yakking about Elvis.
[ January 01, 2006, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
tinman41
Jan 1 2006, 04:15 AM
wow are the moto counts so high now that would lose riders? keep in mind im just asking . i remember when the tracks were boring in a lot of place,es we traveled any ways i mean im 43 looking in,,it seems that its a biss. and that ,,,,well you get it ,,,,,,,no offense to anyone
pquinnbmx
Jan 1 2006, 04:19 AM
Elvis , what if somebody does not have enough respect for the new bmx, for what bmx has become, to try and grow it? I might be talking about myself. What if I don't think I should grow bmx in its current state? In other words, I would send people to my local track, that's fine, but I definately would not send some nooby to Tulsa and hand him clips and say go for it. But by getting him to race locally, eventually he is going to aspire to go to nationals, or at least that's the plan I think. BMX is in my blood since 1979 so I know whay I still race, and I have fun, but I don't know how that translates to the youth of today because I'm so old school and outdated and opinionated and I really don't take myself seriously and I really kind of screw around at bmx to where I use it as a tool to keep me young and I don't know how to explain all this to today's youth.
[ January 01, 2006, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: pquinnbmx ]
tinman41
Jan 1 2006, 04:27 AM
i like diet coke ,,,,,,,,oops i mean ,,,,,
Ted Carl
Jan 1 2006, 05:14 AM
How about some Yak Haiku;
I gazed at the track, and planned my attack, while asking my Yak, girl, ...how fast are you?
I then took off her pack, I got on her back, held tight to her rack, and vexed, ...do I smell bad or do ewe?
Then I gave her a whack, knowing I'll get the knack, and without looking back, I said boys, I bid you adieu.
But she gave me some flack, and stopped for a snack, and said man, now I really must poo.
BTW...The Team T-shirts have just arrived! Just 10 bucks each! All sizes in stock, including women's!
G-Flash
Jan 1 2006, 06:25 AM
I would give it a go if they would build a 70's downhill track! It would have to be a very mild grade for the downhill and very long with hills and small jumps. Very little pedal power needed and no bikes from the 80's to present!
B. Apold
Jan 1 2006, 07:05 AM
Downhills! yes...
I was fortunate to hit a few of the 70's So.Cal down hills and it was so G-damn fun. Watch the Jox Jag videos.. thats all I have to say. Imagine a bmx track were the spectators loose site of the race track and racers. awesome fun!
Either way, new school or old school, bmx is still cool. If bmx has lost riders ( today) just remember it has done the generation flip before and bounced back. I quit at the begining of 84 and went back that Summer to watch and attendence was scary small at a double point event, of course I didn't care then. If kids wanna race they will and what they put into they will get back out of it, trophy's or personal satisfaction.....
I think if a parent decides there kid wants to try racing they'll buy them a bike that is nice and not made of gold to see if they like it and will stick with it. If they like it chances are they'll make the next leep for a more quality bike. I wouldn't buy my kid an exotic bike if he begged me and money isn't an issue.. Kids need to earn/respect things to appreciate them..
Brad
deluxx bmx
Jan 1 2006, 07:56 PM
maybe..but like so many before me said its just not the same today...not that it is not great any more ,its just not the same..i stopped over at the local track this past summer on a road training ride and chatted with this guy from Mass..he was there with his kids,moterhome and all...he sounded just like we did back when "it was fun"....but i rode away happy in the fact that that chapter was closed and my Road/Cyclocross book is still going strong..all thanks to the BMX i did years ago...my kid is 5 so it wont be long till i am back at the tracks though....deluxxy
Elvis
Jan 3 2006, 09:33 AM
quote:
Elvis , what if somebody does not have enough respect for the new bmx, for what bmx has become, to try and grow it?
(sorry to be a bit slow getting back)
Pat: I got two responses here, the frank one and the kind one.
Frankly: Sounds like a personal problem. More to the point, I can always find an excuse not to do something. You want to talk yourself out of fronting for BMX? Suit yourself, but that's coming from you, not BMX.
Kindly: It's tough to sell a product you don't feel much passion for, so at that level if you want to re-tool, create a track that you're comfortable fronting, more power to you. Me, that sounds like the long road, but if you're willing to take the long road to do what's got to be done, again, more power to you and my undying respect - seriously.
quote:
I use it as a tool to keep me young and I don't know how to explain all this to today's youth.
"This is fun." It remains fun no matter what BMX has become in your eyes. It's just fun, cheap fun.
Me, I pitch parents a lot more than the kids anyway. Getting the kid to think it's fun is no big trick, one lap over the dirt jumps usually works that out, but getting the parents to load 'em up and take 'em to the track is a thing. And it's not - don't get me wrong - a big deal. I don't spend more than five minutes on the average with someone I'm pitching. I hand 'em a brochure, tell 'em that we have classes for all ages and experience levels, that all they need to start is long pants, a long sleeve shirt, a helmet and a bicycle with working brakes, tell them our schedule and ask if they have any questions. Boom, done, on to the next one.
Our first race of the year was the first day of the season this year, we had three new full members sign up and two distinct "first race free" racers (the latter whom I'd pitched the day before, out of maybe five pitches). Of that last group we'll get at least one, and possible two when Dad gets a cruiser, new full members. Bragging on the sale before the close, but it took me all of ten minutes to get these forthcoming new full memberships, and I'll do this many many many times in the coming season.
Not to keep playing the same note over and over, but it's all about recruiting noobs. Period.
JohnnyJohnson OMAS DirtSlinger
Jan 3 2006, 04:51 PM
This thread made me wonder what my dad
did to contribute to the sport back in the day.
1) Officiated at our local tracks,
2) Offered to work on peoples bikes,
3) Managed two teams,
4) Bought two old school buses to go to races in,
5) Got up at 5 p.m. on Sundays to drive around
San Diego picking up as many as 35 kids
to take them to and from our local races
6) Always would tell random kids with BMX bikes
about the sport. He got David Archibald into
BMX racing that way.
That was one person... in his 50's... with a heart condition....
All of us can contribute a little or a lot.
[ January 03, 2006, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: JohnnyJohnson OMAS DirtSlinger ]
steef
Jan 3 2006, 06:50 PM
Bingo! The fact that so many of us are dads ourselves now will not hurt a bit. That's so cool that your dad did that for you and all those others. Out of the families that Elvis pitches too, he probably gets a few dads like that. My dad didn't help out much except drive us to a few races, and let us lose, I mean use his tools. He was always busy with house and boat projects, so he was probably glad to have us out of his hair at the end of the street building our trails and jumps. Maybe someone needs to start a "How our dads/moms helped us BMX" thread. I'm counting the days until the snow melts so I can build my tiny backyard track.
Ted Carl
Jan 4 2006, 05:14 AM
The fact that we are now Dad's is very helpful. My dad did a heck of a lot as well Johnny, Hats off to all the Dad's that did it for us!
However, the fact remains, that getting tracks, and track operators has still got to be the toughest sell of all. I have been involved in enough clubs to know the 5/95 rule. 5% of the people do 95% of the work.
I have a lot of respect for the people, and thanks, for those people who did so much for us BITD to allow us to race.
....Because I know how all that Non Profit Org. Club Stuff works. 30 people say they will help, 7 people actually show up, and 3 of them do all the work, and 1 person takes, and makes, ALL the phone calls, and writes all the checks.
That is what intrigued me about Cash's idea to pay people. IMO you would still want to be a NPO. A business for Profit opens you up to some real uglies. You can still pay wages as a NPO, However,.....Expenses add up quick for services. You start talking about permanent facilities, and food, and property maintenance.....Tough to make ends meet there.
Volunteers are hard to come by. But the New School stuff discourages the big volunteers, such as TO's, even further nowadays. My Dad did a LOT of stuff to build a track and run it. But now they have Pneumatic actuators that have to be set up, air compressors to set up, Generators to set up, or electric bills to pay. Speakers to be put out, Computers to set up, Printers to print out moto sheets, Plastic on the tracks that has to be pulled, and sandbagged, often nearing dark with mosquitos coming out. Food sales, facilities maintenance, security systems, Loaner helmets, etc, etc, etc...It takes a different kind of person that wants to run a facility like that. Especially at 4 times a week or more! (2 races and 2 practices) And to me, that requires more than just a few volunteers. That is a full time business. Even Buying busses like Johnny's Dad did, and gathering kids, is less work than that!....
The Old School stuff was work, but when it rained, it rained, and the track got ruts. We fixed them a couple time a year, and raced in the rain. The PA was a battery powered speaker. And food sales consisted of a case of pop from a cooler and ice. Moto sheets were drawn up by hand, and you drew your lanes using a deck of cards on the starting hill. Overhead cost, was a Biff payment once a month. And races were once every other Saturday and Sunday.
I think people (Riders and Family) have come to expect flushing toilets, electricity, sound systems, Pretzels and cheeze, drinking fountains, pneumatic gates, and groomed tracks and a selection of food better than a movie theater. And service 4 days a week.
One thing for sure, If I get the Old Maple Plain Track up and running, it MIGHT have a pneumatic gate, if we can pull electricity, or air, from the Fire Dept. next door. But it will be a rained on track, the berms might be bigger, but will still require hanging a foot off, vending will be from a cooler of ice, or the 7-11 down the street, and you will draw your lanes from a deck of playing cards before you get on the gate. As I, for one, am not up for another full time business.
My point being, is that, here again, it would probably be a whole lot easier to get more tracks, and more TO's, if the standards weren't so high now. Pitching racers, and getting them to stay is hard enough, and pitching a TO to create a full time business is a whole different thing again.
If the tracks were more old school from that standpoint, there might actually be more tracks to race at, (at least from what I have seen around here!). Have a dirt track, that is free to ride on any time. Bring a Card table for registration, and a deck of cards, and run a race every other weekend. That's a much easier way to get people to run races, and build tracks. But that seems to be "Unacceptable" now.
...Plumbing, and vending, and computer data bases, and giant pretzels with cheese, and sandbags and plastic....It is without a doubt, tougher to get "Joe Dad" to finance, and start a full time business, than it was to get one to run a race at a track on a Saturday.
So I guess that this fits into my point all along, with the racing specific CF mini bikes. The Racing, The Bikes, and The Race Tracks, are SO FAR from just showing up and racing BMX bikes with some Dad's running the races nowadays. The JKOS factor is DEAD and some of it should probably be brought back into it. Maybe more people would build tracks, and run tracks, If the kids didn't demand a groomed and paved Supercross facility, and maybe more parents would get their kid involved in it if there wasn't so much checkbook racing so early on...etc...
It is much more complicated for anyone to get involved with it now, sure you can still walk up to the registration booth and buy an ABA card, and put on a pair of jeans and a loaner helmet and go race once. But it is Harder, and further, to find a track, harder to build a track to supercross standards, harder to run a track, more expensive to run a track, harder to maintain a track, harder to find the good equipment.....
It has evolved, and the facilities are nice. But who wants to dive in to it that deep and build a track now? Front 500,000 dollars for a "facility"?......Or, would it be easier to get Dad to help kids draw cards from a deck, and go racing?......Clearly that was easier BITD too. And I, for one, am not up to creating a facility like that, and I will do a lot for my kid, and for things that I am into.
quote:
"This is fun." It remains fun no matter what BMX has become in your eyes. It's just fun, cheap fun.
I have to somewhat disagree with that. Freestyle is cheap fun. 250 bucks for a bike with pegs, at any store, and you ride, and ride, and ride, anywhere, anytime.....
I think it should be cheap fun, but I don't think Racing is all that cheap for anybody anymore. And the tracks are catering to the NAG chasers. It has turned into a big business for a TO. And far more expensive, and more difficult for the newbies, to get much of the better competitive equipment, and find a track to race at. Even buying a super saver "20 pack", of 10 practices and 10 races for $90. Not bad, but the real issue is that, I never paid to practice at a track even once in my life......ever. In fact, it was our local hang out, on our terms, and on our schedule. It is harder to pitch to anyone now in many ways. Hearing about a local track, and going to the track on a whim, and checking it out, and riding on it, and hanging with your pals there, on any nice day, was a real easy way to make kids want to show up on Saturday to try racing. Scheduling them for a Thursday night practice night for 7 dollars is a different world.
New tracks have some cool things, but 80s tracks had some benefits too. Backing off on the whole Supercross venue a notch or 2, might be a great idea for a lot of reasons. But if that is what the experts HAVE to HAVE, they will never get many more tracks and TO's, and it will remain an uphill battle.
I sit here and think, man that would be cool to build a track, and be a TO. Then I think about what is involved in it now vs. then, and I think...."NFW". Then I think, "Build it however I want to, with no fences, and no practice fees, and no plastic covers, and they will come". Run a few double and triple points races, and the reluctant NAG chasers will have to come, and they might actually like the pop from the cooler when they get thirsty!.....And I might just be able to sell enough DX style pedals on race day to pay for the pop in the cooler! (lol). They can learn to use a Biff too!...
Am I so far off base here?
Elvis
Jan 4 2006, 09:26 AM
In an effort to support your thesis you're making some pretty broad suppositions.
quote:
My point being, is that, here again, it would probably be a whole lot easier to get more tracks, and more TO's, if the standards weren't so high now. Pitching racers, and getting them to stay is hard enough, and pitching a TO to create a full time business is a whole different thing again.
I'm thinking you haven't been out on any sort of circuit lately and hit any of the "real" tracks. While there's some nice facilities out there, more the rule are treeless fields, dirt parking and a porta-potty, which, btw, noobs, since they don't know any different, don't care about. They assume it's a norm.
quote:
If the tracks were more old school from that standpoint, there might actually be more tracks to race at, (at least from what I have seen around here!). Have a dirt track, that is free to ride on any time. Bring a Card table for registration, and a deck of cards, and run a race every other weekend. That's a much easier way to get people to run races, and build tracks. But that seems to be "Unacceptable" now.
This is what I mean, it's almost painful to watch you come to this conclusion. Tons of tracks don't have computers, tons of tracks run registration off a card table, tons of tracks are open during the week (which creates endless problems with ruts, you'll learn) and etc... son, you need to get out more.
I went to the skatepark last night, it was $5 night, normally it's $7. I"ll race Friday and pay a $5 entry fee (and get more riding time than at the park, and race at the other track (card table sign-up; porta-potty) Saturday for $8. In all cases I'll see/have seen, kids on bikes they paid _max_ $200 for, and probably less than that.
Get out there and hit some races and then get back to me. Your suppositions upon which you base your argument are utterly flawed, and apparently based upon the world view of world-class facilities and racers -- both a minor percentage in BMX world.
But wait, maybe you don't want to, for whatever reason, got hit some tracks (despite observation being a key component of testing a theory). Then build the facility you think needs to be built and run it in the way you see fit. Just, like the ad slogan goes, do it. The sanction(s) won't care, you send in your per-event fee ($20-$50) and you can pretty much hold the races in wheelbarrows and award hammers, it just flat don't matter to them. Don't use an air ram, just a manual gate, use a drainage ditch for a privy, use cows as obstacles, whatever, it's all good.
Sanction fee too high? Then run it without a sanction, go outlaw, it's been done before.
You'll still find, at the end of the day, you'll need to go out there and beat the bushes to get some riders. You want to grow BMX, you'll be out recruiting. There ain't no field of dreams, that story's mythology. If you build it, you'll still have to get people to come to it.
Let me help further, while demonstration my VBMX scars: The question "Hey guys would you ______ if I ________?" being met by the "Oh hell yeah!" chorus has burnt more people on this board than play with fireworks -- check with frame builders for confirmation. So whatever positive response you got here, I'll bet you, I want you to bet me (very much) that when you build your 80s track you'll have the same problems and issues as a TO at any other track in the great out there. You'll have to recruit.
Pay attention, dig what Pat and Cash are feeding on, and they're out there at the track as regular as anyone in this thread (and have witnessed the "You bet I would!" response-outcome many times). It's not the track, it's not the bikes, it's the recruiting, that's what growth needs to be based upon. I speak from experience, and as someone who's done it wrong long enough to learn how to do it right.
Deanna
Jan 4 2006, 10:38 AM
I apoligize if this question has been asked before but it seems the current trend of X-bmxers is not to introduce their kids to the sport. Why is this?
For something that is so important to all of us and holds a special place in our heart why aren't we bringing our kids to the track and letting them race? Is it easier to drop them off and have someone coach them in another sport?
I'm with Johnny on his above statement. My mom and dad were very involved with BMX and always volunteered on both the local level and the national level. I'm sure I wouldn't have raced as long as I did or did as well as I did without my parents dedication to the sport.
So all you vintage guys step away from your beautiful collection and take your kids to the track. Volunteer or even race. You won't regret one minute of the time spent with your kid just as your parents didn't.
[ January 04, 2006, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Deanna ]
pquinnbmx
Jan 4 2006, 04:55 PM
good grief this thread is not dead yet? i will admit, elvis, i have real bad personal issues with bmx. or, in my mind, real good personal issues. I'm just afraid they may come off as negative to some, so i don't think a noob is a good place for me to vent my issues, but this forum is!! or at least when i bring up my issues with most, i get some strange reactions that seem negative, so i guess i'm supposed to keep them to myself? not my way, so i choose not to get too involved with noobies. now, i can bounce my ideas and opinions off most of you guys here, no problems.
pquinnbmx
Jan 4 2006, 05:02 PM
now, the parents, that's different. i can talk to the noobie's parents. just , with kids, they don't get my views on bmx. heck, most adults don't get me. i'm kind of crazy sometimes. i am real comfortable in my skin, but it gets kind of wild around here at times.
RCain
Jan 4 2006, 08:09 PM
Ted,
What you describe is something like where we were 15 years ago!
6 man gate, small rocky track behind a supermarket in a dirt parking lot, no computer, we hand stacked motos (you'd be surprised at what a pain in the butt that is), no air ram, we had a guy that pulled up the gate up with a metal pole. It was BMX, it was all we had, the local Kids loved it, they didnt know it was different anywhere else. We were getting 15- 20 riders per race.
Ten years later we had a pneumatic ram, a generator, a computer, and, a bigger better track. it was much easier to run races and set up time was 20-30 min max, the local kids loved it. we were getting 15-20 riders per race.
Five years ago we incorporated and elected a board of directors to oversee the track. We started recruiting volunteers to help set up, sign up, officiate and_ recruit new riders,_ our ridership has doubled since then, and although still small (40+ riders avg in '05) this will be the first year that we will be running a full season on our new track at Cherry Hill Park(a project 5 years in the making) and our Board can focus its full energies on marketing and recruiting noobs instead of City Council and Parks Board meetings. Its a downhill supercross track,with a paved starting hill and big scaryfast (<-- one word) rythem section, in a City Park 10 blocks from my house, with Deer that come and spectate in the evenings. the kids love it. they dont know that BMX is different anywere alse.
With the exposure that BMX will be getting in our little hometown through programs with the Parks Department to teach kids bicycle safety and a big recruiting push planned for spring we expect to double our ridership by mid season '06.
More equipment didnt help rider count.
More help at the track didnt help rider count.
A better track didnt help rider count.
A conscious effort to recruit noobs increased rider count.
A dedicated Core and an amazing Parks Director got us a premier location and all of the tools we need to make BMX HUGE!!!!!
In our little City by the Lake.
If you build it, they will come, a little at a time.
If you recruit, they will all come at the same time.
Ted Carl
Jan 4 2006, 08:28 PM
Here is the dillemma here. How do you get "Involved" with a track that is 90 miles away?
The blue rectangles are where all the local tracks were BITD. All free to ride, anytime, any day. All are GONE now.
The Green Circles are the existing New School Tracks. One of them (marked) is a small indoor barn with mold alergens that I wont come near anymore.
The Yellow Circles are Skateparks that I know of.
The Rectangle with a Red Dot is where I want to revive the OS Track. Prime location, but an old school track.
It is easy to see what has happened here in this area with a picture. The kids can buy bikes at the store with pegs, ride to the skateparks, and play for free all day long. Just like we used to be able to do BITD at all the different race tracks.
The skate parks have replaced the racetracks here, and taken the riders with them.
So adding tracks here would go a long way. But new school supercross tracks that have to be covered every night are something too big to handle for your average volunteer parent. Hence my suggestions that simpler, may not be such a bad idea.
Re-populating the area with managable tracks, holds more promise here than converting kids....To convert the kids to racing here, is asking them to travel 10 times further, and give up their freestyle bikes, and thier everyday hangouts, for racing bikes, and no place to ride them everyday.
So if the racers have to have the supercross style tracks, then it is unlikely here, that racetracks will ever take back any of the turf that is now overrun with skateparks. Simpler, low maintenance, 80 style stuff might be easier to regain tracks and entice TO's, to create new tracks where the kids can hang out and use them everyday, and not have to fence them in, and cover them with plastic every night.
Kids have a way of adapting to thier surroundings. When they are surrounded by skateparks.....I would love to help surround them with racetracks again, but it is far more difficult to do that with high maintenance vertical berm tracks.
RCain
Jan 4 2006, 09:39 PM
Old School, New School, your target audience doesnt care.
But realistically you will need these things to run a track, in no specific order of importance.
These are mandatory:
The Track: Anything will do, Who cares if Johnny National drops by and thinks that it sucks, Hes not your target customer.
Water, the Juice is Goood.
An 8 man gate
Power: we still use a generator,
and it is possible to run a battery powered magnetic gate but it sucks (suck factor: 6)
these are strongly recommended by Me, some guy on the internets.
Computer, trust me, you dont want to hand stack motos, not because it is difficult and time consuming, which it is, but because you dont know how many times that the phrase
"Im sorry it worked out that way, but the computer determines the motos"
will save you valuable time, time that you'd rather not spend debating the merits of the "my Kid shouldnt be racing with experts" Case.
Compressor
Ram and voice box, easy to set up, easy to run,
saves your back.
Public address system: anything from a battery powered megaphone on up.
Concessions: bottled water in a styrofoam cooler min.
everything else is big city livin'.
Elvis
Jan 4 2006, 11:01 PM
I am the King of hand-stacking motos. Seriously, I can do it while eating a samich and changing an inner tube.
But yeah, you want to build a track, build a track. You got an idea what you want it to look like, suit yourself (the sanction will send out a track builder, all you need is dirt).
Reilley1
Jan 4 2006, 11:18 PM
Mr Tom Derosier, Mrs Joan Cary, Mrs Lena Mason, Mr Rick Twomey, Mr Bob Osborn, Mrs Encinas.
Just a few names of parents and enthusiasts who drove waaaay more than 90 miles to hit a race. Once you get these kind of people involved once again, the sport will grow again. Until then you can balme the fat kid playing Nintendo all you want, but it is us (old BMXers) who have also gotten lazy hoping someone else will take the initiative.
Until we take the initiative, recruit some kids, take them to the races, help out the track operator, we can come up with all sorts of wacky ideas on how to grow the sport and none of them will work out.
To those parents of the past who put up with me, 5 kids, 6 bikes and two hacks in the back of their truck/van for 100-200 miles just so we could race, I salute you and thank you
Man, maybe we should call this the Yawn Yawnson thread
[ January 05, 2006, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
retrodave
Jan 5 2006, 08:19 PM
PREACH IT BROTHER RANDY !!!!!
retrodave
Jan 5 2006, 08:21 PM
PREACH ON BROTHER RANDY!!!!!
steef
Jan 5 2006, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the map, Ted. Where I grew up in Golden Valley was equidistant to all the tracks except Shorewood. There was no such thing as skateparks. There was also numerous homegrown trails and jumps all over the place, many of which have been developed, now. Racing was secondary to us, then, but it was still cool to go to a local track and get or recieve bragging rights over your buddies. Mostly we just built and rode our own trails. My dad was a big Boy Scouts voulnteer, too. I ended up meeting a few guys there that rode BMX and were also the "rebels" of the troop. I think I got my cycling merit badge by riding my BMX all over the place. OK, I have now officially hit rambliing mode, so back to the map. All the tracks were reasonably close to the center of the metro area, and there wasn't as much urban sprawl back then. I've been watching the process of MTB trail creation and maintenance on the MORCMTB forums. Granted, MTB trails are far different than a BMX track, but the process should be the same if you want to use city land, which Maple Plain is, if I'm not mistaken. It's still far out from the city, but there's a lot more people living in that area now because of the Sprawl.
Oh wow, I just remembered about the Big Willow track in Minnetonka. wasn't that one a four man gate? I never raced that one, but one of my friends did. All I know is that it was a good time to race and ride. I suppose I should try to find a good landscaping design program to put my backyard into and map a track onto it, since I can't do anything physical with all the snow on the ground. I suppose I could make it all out of snow.
Ted Carl
Jan 5 2006, 10:18 PM
quote:
Just a few names of parents and enthusiasts who drove waaaay more than 90 miles to hit a race.
BMX is strong here, but, most of the bikes have pegs though.
The guys you listed didn't have 20 skate parks in the area to choose from, or they may have chosen pegs too. Remember, racing was THE ONLY venue then. Now they have choices. MTB, flatland, pool parks, ramps, and racing. They have to make racing their choice now.
My kid is always the only one at the skate parks with a number plate.
Fortunately, After another hour on the Phone today, It looks like I may be able to Get the OS track up and running with a gate, and improvements, all with City funds, and leave it open for daily use, as desired.
She also wants to work towards building a "brand new track" at a location on the Old Railroad Line, which is currently becoming a new bike path, so the kids will be able to ride from other towns and never have to ride on a road! And, it has baseball fields, and consession stands and plumbing, and parking, already in place! And this gal is willing to do the politics and red tape thing.
So I may get to build 2 tracks this spring. Both open for use at all times. Both on City Property, Both maintained by the City. Both paid for by dedicated city funding from 2 different cities. And both an hour closer to the people.
So you guys that said "count me in".....Start considering your name on the list! The first name on the list has the title, "Single parent, BMX crew chief, chief bottle washer, and new carrer guy". If it is all on me, there will likely be something left to be desired in the spoils!
I might buy a bus though!? lol
Speaking of Yawn Yawnson, Johnny, that is sooooo cool, that your Dad bought Busses to transport kids OM Style!....I can't stop thinking about how cool that is!....
Paul Springer
Jan 7 2006, 07:18 PM
Go Ted go!
Count me in! I live out in Rogers/Dayton area and I am with ya! There are loads of young families that have moved to the outer ring of the suburbs because it tends to be more desireable with the more bang for the buck, ask Brad Apold I am sure that is why they live out in St. Michael (?) Most all of us chubby late 30's, early 40's types are here! I would guess that Sheely would be amped to get involved, dirt jump track/race track its in his blood... I want to hear more details about the city's involvement, red tape, additional track etc... The area that we live in is a hotbed of recruits and volunteers and more importantly a boat load of kids! I really think your on to something here BIG. Most importantly I would love to see you make all the nay sayers eat dirt. Catch you later, keep charging ahead with a positive outlook brutha...
Ted Carl
Jan 8 2006, 02:55 AM
quote:
Oh wow, I just remembered about the Big Willow track in Minnetonka.
I kept the first trophey I ever won, and the top off another, and a few other trinkets, that is all I have left. The first was from "Big Willow" .... It is a board with a rider on it! ....lol
Thanks for all the PM's and e-mails guys! Sincerely.
This gal that I am working with is great! I will see what I can do to pull the best of both worlds into this thing, and see what we can make happen.
Although this thread has changed gears many times, everyone's input is cool, and I hope many are able to put it to good use!
Racer
Jan 8 2006, 03:12 PM
quote:
My kid is always the only one at the skate parks with a number plate.
Yeah BITD it was so cool, everyone that raced rode around jumping spots and around town with their number plates on. It was like a badge of honor not to be just a poser. It was cool to see a BMX bike go by and know it was a racer. Everywhere racers went they promoted the sport (maybe without knowing it) just by running their numberplate. Now its not cool to run a plate for some reason.
I mean Ive gone to local tracks and the Tos let riders on the track with no plate even! Sometimes no pads. Ive seen pics from Nationals were the riders had no pads. And running your district decal rofl. yeah TOs and the ABA really enforce that. In fact I never even recieved a ABA district decal when I joined last summer.
I can still remember when I first started seeing all the different district decals at a big race or when I travele out of state, it was so cool. And when you saw a ABA Pro decal, you knew, he was fast. Just one fo the many lil things that made BMX so cool BITD, something lost that will hopefully return.
On my cruiser I run my plate even when I go to jumps or around town.
JohnnyJohnson OMAS DirtSlinger
Jan 8 2006, 05:29 PM
My Dad's two busses he used for BMX.....
Yeah, he saw an ad in the paper. Went to place where the San Diego City Schools retires old school busses. Some running, some not. He got a deal on two for $500 each. Good looking too, not all beat up. Totally gutted on the inside with no passenger seats. We threw in two couches. He wound up selling the other a few months later. The main one we used for a few years.
-
-
-
We would wake up at 5 a.m. on Sundays. Our local races started at 9 a.m.
My dad would drive from our neighborhood near San Diego's main airport to about three to four different locations. All in totally different locations in San Diego. We would pick up as many as 30 bikes and riders.
We would arrive at the track with enough time to sign up, bike inspection, and practice.
Oh yeah....
We took everyone back too.
WINGO
Jan 9 2006, 12:45 AM
I really liked the old tracks, the new tracks seem like taking death seriously. Did anyone ever race the old freeport illinois track, it was about 45 minutes from rockfords searles park. they had a minature golf coarse , raced on thursday nights. Not real technical , some cool rollers, a step, and a couple of doubles. had alot of fun nights over there.
Kazman
Jan 14 2006, 06:16 PM
I'd love a mid to late 80's track, even an early to mid 90's design but todays tracks are just too risky. I am stronger now than I ever was as a teen but I am not nearly on my bike enough to risk using my increased speed and strength on these technical tracks.
Probably a year ago I found a local track out here in the Los Angeles area and I was limited to gate starts. Everything in every straight was a rythym section with super huge jumps. Might be fun if I was spending the time on my bike that I could when I was 15 but those days are over.
The sport is evolving and that's great. I love watching BMX races in todays era but that is entirely different from me risking my bones on them. Take a Formula 1 driver from the 70's, 80's or 90's and put them in a 2005 Formula 1 car and their times wouldn't even be close to todays drivers. In fact one former drive ran his mouth enough that they put him in a modern F1 car where he proceeded to spin the thing three different times. Difference being the track designs don't change, the car technology and capabilities do. Same goes for downhill skiing, the courses don't change but the skis do and that increases the risk for old school racers trying to recapture glory on the slope.
I don't see enough business in BMX to warrant designing tracks for the few of us old schoolers who'd like to pedal are butts off. The sport needs to advance anyway and todays kids are fine on the tracks being designed. That's what advances the sport.