Ahhh...much better now...
Full Version: Would you race again if they built 80s style tracks?
Since the clips/no clips debate always seems to be brought up in just about every thread, I feel the need to post this picture of my JMC. I recently made some changes to it. What do you think?
Ahhh...much better now...
Ahhh...much better now...
"oooooo....Mother Era Police is gonna be mad...."
Obviously Cash and I agree on most points. I want to commend Elvis on recruiting kids, and getting them to come out to the national style tracks. Then, when they go to nationals, they are not shocked. That's fine. What Cash and I are thinking is that we can have an easy track, and still have those rad tracks, maybe even on the same piece of property. Nothing wrong with a kiddie pool next to the olympic sized dive. Nothing wrong with a tame training track, or whatever you call it, a novice track. i think people get defensive like we want to change the world, or bulldoze the rad track. Elvis, trust me, we would not take over your track and make it tame. I've gotten that from people before. Nor would we change the grands track. No, we would, however have an easier, calmer track, in addition to the rad one. And, recruiting is one thing, retention is another. I'm wondering if we would retain more riders if the possibility of injury was slightly less? Just a thought. Or, retain them if the possibility of having a practice or novice track at their disposal, for as long as they want, might be attractive to them. Recruiting then retention. There's reasons why moto counts are down all over the USA, and the tracks may be just one of the reasons.
Yeah man, more unpredictable action would be great to bring back to most new tracks..too bad when anything becomes corporate like Bmx has become the big companies and investors at the top look down on risky activity..IE: anything that deviates from the established norm, it might disrupt consistent cashflow and profits, although they scramble to grab the tailend of something new when it breaks under the radar, being the one that is ahead of the sport is always a good place to be I would think. Byron Friday and myself have discussed this many times and are working on a new track in the San Fernado Valley (Van Nuys) with some help from the city. Byron's got a bmx site which is exposing the roots of vintage bmx to the newer generation at http://www.bmxclub.com
Seem to be when Bmx started it was for the fun of it with little money to be made, then it hit the early 80's and you had a the fun mixed in with decent money made, now it seems like it's mainly about the track efficiency and profits..A local track has around 2 1/2 hours racing in a day to make their cash and company adverts are abundant everywhere you look. I can't even make out what factory a guy is riding for on a race jersey/helmet nowadays..way too many company ad logos and graphics plastered on it...where's the cutoff switch..overkill in my opinion.
I think Pliska was comparing modern Bmx tracks like Indy Car Racing, how it has evolved better with newer technology and not having any desire to go back to the old days of leather helmets and wooden cars.
On the flipside, in the old days of Indy Car Racing there was more danger and risk of death, the protective gear and race equipment was questionable at best...the chance of a wooden car slamming into a wall at 120 mph with a tank full of gas and a leather helmet would seem to be way more exciting and keep you on your toes, to the drivers as well as spectators..I think there's a happy medium though..maybe that's what what we all seem to refer to as the early 80's being the best era for Bmx.
In modern car racing, it seems the risk has been greatly reduced with safer car construction, safer track technology, breakaway parts, safer rollcages and airbags, most of the problems have been worked out to the point where the races are highly predictable just like modern BMX..Pretty sterile to watch the Indy 500 on T.V. now as well as current Bmx racing in my opinion.
You know what has been said on this thread...if you haven't tried the new bmx tracks yet don't knock it...same goes with the new guy's trying early style racing like a Corona downhill, just like the old auto tracks in leather helmets and wooden Indy cars, you'd find a lot of soiled underwear if put to the test. I think alot of guy's here have as well as myself have raced on both OS and new bmx tracks and would like to see some of the old qualities of early, independent, exciting, un-corporate money motivated bmx racing come back in some form, maybe even infuse the best of both qualities in old and new track styles and create something with a broader appeal.
[ December 26, 2005, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: nitrotwang ]
Seem to be when Bmx started it was for the fun of it with little money to be made, then it hit the early 80's and you had a the fun mixed in with decent money made, now it seems like it's mainly about the track efficiency and profits..A local track has around 2 1/2 hours racing in a day to make their cash and company adverts are abundant everywhere you look. I can't even make out what factory a guy is riding for on a race jersey/helmet nowadays..way too many company ad logos and graphics plastered on it...where's the cutoff switch..overkill in my opinion.
I think Pliska was comparing modern Bmx tracks like Indy Car Racing, how it has evolved better with newer technology and not having any desire to go back to the old days of leather helmets and wooden cars.
On the flipside, in the old days of Indy Car Racing there was more danger and risk of death, the protective gear and race equipment was questionable at best...the chance of a wooden car slamming into a wall at 120 mph with a tank full of gas and a leather helmet would seem to be way more exciting and keep you on your toes, to the drivers as well as spectators..I think there's a happy medium though..maybe that's what what we all seem to refer to as the early 80's being the best era for Bmx.
In modern car racing, it seems the risk has been greatly reduced with safer car construction, safer track technology, breakaway parts, safer rollcages and airbags, most of the problems have been worked out to the point where the races are highly predictable just like modern BMX..Pretty sterile to watch the Indy 500 on T.V. now as well as current Bmx racing in my opinion.
You know what has been said on this thread...if you haven't tried the new bmx tracks yet don't knock it...same goes with the new guy's trying early style racing like a Corona downhill, just like the old auto tracks in leather helmets and wooden Indy cars, you'd find a lot of soiled underwear if put to the test. I think alot of guy's here have as well as myself have raced on both OS and new bmx tracks and would like to see some of the old qualities of early, independent, exciting, un-corporate money motivated bmx racing come back in some form, maybe even infuse the best of both qualities in old and new track styles and create something with a broader appeal.
[ December 26, 2005, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: nitrotwang ]
quote:That's a fact. The tracks today offer a lot of good things that we never offered bitd. Loaner helmets, permanant concession stands, plumbing and facilities, easy to operate starting gates, are among the many items that cater to bringing in new people, and serving people the we VBMXers did not usually have at the tracks.
There's reasons why moto counts are down all over the USA, and the tracks may be just one of the reasons.
Many factors affect moto counts. While weekday races are great for kids, the 2 hour drives are non-conducive to high moto counts around here. We used to have at least 4 major tracks within a half an hour from each other. Now it is 1 hour and 51 minutes SW to one track, 1 hour and 20 minutes NW to another, 44 minutes North to another, and 1 hour NE to another, and almost double that in rush hour traffic on weekday evenings.
So even if I wanted to let my son race 1 race a week, at each of the 5 tracks even remotely near here anymore, for one day each week would be 600 miles or 35 gallons of gas, or 100 bucks a week in gas, and at least 8-14 hours of travel time, just to hit 5 races at 5 tracks. And there is no way he could be there by registration closing anyway most weeknights, so it is moot. And that is typical for every kid in the cities around us as well. There is the #1 low moto count reason.
Honestly, A 24 inch cruiser would go farther towards enticing me to race, than an OS track. But I doubt that a cruiser AND an OS track would get me to race again, but it would be much more likely, than me racing a 20 incher on a NS track, that much is certain. For many reasons it is about the kid now. I truly enjoy riding the new tracks on practice nights, and more importantly, my kid likes the new tracks as well. But he loves the OS track here too, in a big way!
I think reviving the OS track here would go gangbusters for a few reasons. First and foremost, Location!!! But variety, accessability to ride on everyday between races, and the appeal to our generation of VBMXers (parents) joining the cruiser class would ALL be huge draws.
I think kids enjoy any good venue that you put out for them. But tracks that smack irony to the movie "Rad" featuring "Hell Track", and cater exclusively to the "Elite Experts", are a big thrill for a select few, but generally do nothing positive for the greater population, except as a publicized x-games event or something.
While smaller jumps, and flatter berms, in themselves, would definitely not increase the moto count, the greater variety, and probable appeal to a larger audience, (and in the case of our specific MN track we are debating) the location itself, sure might!......
Great posts Cash....
It will never completely evolve back, and most of it shouldn't. But some decisions are not always the best ones either. While 3+3=6 wins to expert was not enough BITD, 8+25=33 wins to expert is a complete joke too. Those kinds of things in the "New School" should always be open for debate and change, and so should appealing track designs. Truly, if "Factions" are catered to, such as "hell-track" was for experts, or an OS track designed strictly for "VBMXers", you lose people. A split OS/NS track layout could only expand appeal of racing, while catering less to any one faction of it.
It started as a "What if" thread, so it is really not a threatening or definitive debate anyway. But it is fun, and can be constructive, no doubt!
.....As for Reilley's last comment......"Got Milk?"...lol
What would happen if we took the best of the past and the best of today and combined them into one serious bmx track? We could have a single starting gate where the first turn goes left for most amateurs and goes right for pros, and the 14-21 expert class.
We have lots to learn, but everyone appears eager and that is a building block of true education. This is a great and valid discussion, and thankfully no one is name calling!
We have lots to learn, but everyone appears eager and that is a building block of true education. This is a great and valid discussion, and thankfully no one is name calling!
I had a thread on this exact same subject before.
Yes Elvis, recruiting and hard work does bring in new riders. Thats a given in the equation.
How do we get BMX to grow as a sport?
Endless recruitng drives? I dont htinks thats smart in any business model. Repeat customers is the best way to go.
Safe, fun tracks for people of all skill levels will help the sport grow again.
I remember being at the Jag World championships in 79 or 80. I have tons of pictures and it was totally exciting to watch Timmy Judge and Ronnie Anderson and Frank Post and Stu. et all.
Yet it didnt have a single paved berm (lol or any berms) or even one hard jump. Yet it was thrilling to watch (I raced it also, it was a blast).
If 20 foot doubles with 8 foot tall lips is what riders really wanted, then jumping contests would have more than 10 riders.
Instead of local tracks making tracks harder to make it easier for their riders to make the transition to nationals. How about making National tracks slighty freindlier and having Expert/Pro section(s).
Then Novice, Inters and Cruisers guys can race and still go to work on Monday and not the ER
Yes Elvis, recruiting and hard work does bring in new riders. Thats a given in the equation.
How do we get BMX to grow as a sport?
Endless recruitng drives? I dont htinks thats smart in any business model. Repeat customers is the best way to go.
Safe, fun tracks for people of all skill levels will help the sport grow again.
I remember being at the Jag World championships in 79 or 80. I have tons of pictures and it was totally exciting to watch Timmy Judge and Ronnie Anderson and Frank Post and Stu. et all.
Yet it didnt have a single paved berm (lol or any berms) or even one hard jump. Yet it was thrilling to watch (I raced it also, it was a blast).
If 20 foot doubles with 8 foot tall lips is what riders really wanted, then jumping contests would have more than 10 riders.
Instead of local tracks making tracks harder to make it easier for their riders to make the transition to nationals. How about making National tracks slighty freindlier and having Expert/Pro section(s).
Then Novice, Inters and Cruisers guys can race and still go to work on Monday and not the ER
BMX was, is and always will be a "self" recruiting sport, just like skateboarding and surfing and snowboarding. Talking someone up about how great BMX is, and how it's a terrific "family" sport is, well, fantastic! But how do you keep someone once they get to a track and race once or twice.
On the subject of "old school" tracks, no way should we go back to the days of 5 jump tracks but when you build a track with pro-level jumps and expect to draw your NEW local rider into racing, you are not going to keep them. It's a fact, it's happened at my local track. This past summer we had a redesign done by 5 top experts that race the track maybe 6 times a year and it just totally killed the FUN aspect of racing for everyone else. In fact I have a few parents who now drive an extra hour to race someplace else rather than hit the local track. BMX tracks are for racing, jumping contests are for jumping. If it's not rollable at full speed by a 12-15 beginner than it's just an accident waiting to happen, and let me tell you from first hand experience that those "accidents" can be local track killers.
A proper "new school" track should have a mix of old school rideability with a new school amount of jumps.
Some people constantly talk of recruiting new racers. Let me pose this question. Who recruited you when you were a kid into racing? No one walked up to me and said "hey, you gotta try this it's great fun". I saw BMXA, the way it portrayed BMX just sparked an interest to get out and ride and jump and hit a track. Recruiting a parent is one thing, keeping a kid interested is a whole 'nother matter.
BMX as a whole (jumping, parks, flat, street) is bigger than ever. I know, I talk and hang with all of these guys. Racing though, has hit another dry spot. Kids don't race because a lot of fun has been sucked out of it. We have career beginners?? Beginners with $1,000 bikes...Parents who make an effort to keep their kids from turning up a class so they "won't get beat by the fast guys" ...Strangeness..
Anyhow, return some fun to racing and you won't have to recruit racers, they'll come to your track looking to ride all by themselves.
On the subject of "old school" tracks, no way should we go back to the days of 5 jump tracks but when you build a track with pro-level jumps and expect to draw your NEW local rider into racing, you are not going to keep them. It's a fact, it's happened at my local track. This past summer we had a redesign done by 5 top experts that race the track maybe 6 times a year and it just totally killed the FUN aspect of racing for everyone else. In fact I have a few parents who now drive an extra hour to race someplace else rather than hit the local track. BMX tracks are for racing, jumping contests are for jumping. If it's not rollable at full speed by a 12-15 beginner than it's just an accident waiting to happen, and let me tell you from first hand experience that those "accidents" can be local track killers.
A proper "new school" track should have a mix of old school rideability with a new school amount of jumps.
Some people constantly talk of recruiting new racers. Let me pose this question. Who recruited you when you were a kid into racing? No one walked up to me and said "hey, you gotta try this it's great fun". I saw BMXA, the way it portrayed BMX just sparked an interest to get out and ride and jump and hit a track. Recruiting a parent is one thing, keeping a kid interested is a whole 'nother matter.
BMX as a whole (jumping, parks, flat, street) is bigger than ever. I know, I talk and hang with all of these guys. Racing though, has hit another dry spot. Kids don't race because a lot of fun has been sucked out of it. We have career beginners?? Beginners with $1,000 bikes...Parents who make an effort to keep their kids from turning up a class so they "won't get beat by the fast guys" ...Strangeness..
Anyhow, return some fun to racing and you won't have to recruit racers, they'll come to your track looking to ride all by themselves.
quote:I could not agree more! As I stated earlier, 33 wins to expert class is a joke! And some current racing rules are keeping moto counts low as well, I am convinced of that.
Kids don't race because a lot of fun has been sucked out of it. We have career beginners?? Beginners with $1,000 bikes...
My son has about 8 races under his belt as a 9 year old beginner. He will never get 8 wins in the beginner class until he is about 12 years old when they all start using standard sized tires, and bikes!!!! Not unless I spend 2000 dollars on carbon fiber forks, CF cranks, CF handlebars, 350 dollar wheel sets, and untold other garbage that shows up in the BEGINNER'S class!!!
Hello!, Knock, knock, pudding headed parents....it is the BEGINNER'S class, and THEY are racing, not YOU! So anyone who has a child that is a beginner from ages 5-12 is never going to have a kid do well, and move up, unless the parent spends thousands on racing gear, and bikes (2 bikes, one to ride, and one to race!!!). Therefore the kid will not "Self-Recruit" and quit, because it is not fun losing to these kids that are riding "Pro-Class" 10 pound bikes. Or else, the parents will enroll them in baseball instead, because they can't afford to let the kid race the beginner class!!! This kind of thing hurts BMX racing badly.
I hate parents that will spend any amount of money to produce a winning beginner, at the expense of letting the kid have fun at his own pace. Let them be a beginner, and let them grow with the classes. But how does anyone do that if the "Superstar" parents keep putting their beginners on the track with 10 pound, 2000 dollar bikes, just to make sure the kid is a winner, and by the time that kid gets 8 wins, 2 more show up on 10 pound bikes, ad nauseum!
I think that with the advent of Carbon fiber, and titanium technology, there should be a minimum bicycle weight in the beginners classes. And like a 20 pound minimum at that!!!! Maybe a 17 pound limit in the intermediate classes too! Then when they hit expert, they can pull out all the stops, and spend as much as they want to compete. Then the kids are racing, NOT the parent's checkbooks!
A 5 to 12 year old child should be able to ride a "Store Bought" Red Line (which weighs exactly 21 pounds btw), and be competitive in the beginner's class if the child has the drive and skill to do so!!! The track operators can buy a digital fish scale and level the playing field at registration.
I think I will contact the ABA on that myself right now.... That, and a 5 and 10 win to move in classes. Move the kids up and get them out to expert class, in something less than 5 years of racing!
....and what is with clip ins in the beginner's class!???....absolute stupidity going on there. Let your kid break his ankle as a beginner...that will make him want to continue racing!
Great posts, all...
Hecks, my son is still on training wheels. He just turned 7. When I was racing the most, we had a local group of 3-6 guys who would get their dads to carpool. We were all within a few years and rarely raced each other. It was kind of a ragtag team of beginners and novices mostly, with an expert thrown in to keep us honest. Then three of them started concentrating primarily on hockey instead. My brother and I started freestyling and another guy went on to race road bikes and X-country skis. He eventually got me into MTBs and I raced those a few times. My friend won the Chequamegon Fat Tire 40 one year. I was happy to break the 3 hour mark. There are some parallels with the current state of MTB trails. Some folks want every trail to have more extreme sections. Others just enjoy putzing through the woods. A few trail areas have "Expert" loops which helps to a degree. I suppose I'd want more old school tracks that aren't fenced in and can be ridden at any time of the week. It would also be cool to have a bunch of guys to hang out with in the are and carpool with again.
BMX will grow if
a lot people take an ACTIVE role
and really PHYSICALLY DO SOMETHING
to build the sport.
That's simply why the sport grew so much
from 73'- 85'.
I'm making this statement very simple on purpose.
a lot people take an ACTIVE role
and really PHYSICALLY DO SOMETHING
to build the sport.
That's simply why the sport grew so much
from 73'- 85'.
I'm making this statement very simple on purpose.
yes I would race again if the tracks were less technical and more built for speed. I hvae no problem with LONG tracks but when I tried racing again a few years ago, I must say the asphault turns were a surprise and very intimidating.
BITD (unlike now) if I broke my arm, SO WHAT! ya know?
I mean we never wanted to break anything but if it happened..., it happned. Now (unfortunately) we need to worry more about these things and make sure we stay healthy.
So if there were less extreme courses I personally would race more and be a regular racer again.
BITD (unlike now) if I broke my arm, SO WHAT! ya know?
I mean we never wanted to break anything but if it happened..., it happned. Now (unfortunately) we need to worry more about these things and make sure we stay healthy.
So if there were less extreme courses I personally would race more and be a regular racer again.
So, if we make it easier to race, then it will be easier to race, right? That makes all the sense in the world to me as a promoter. Make something easy to do that is fun, and promote the heck out of it.
Exactly Cash...
Joe Kid on a Stingray should be able to ride up to the track and register to race for the first time, Pay his fees, and have fun for the entire summer, and race all the other kids on thier Stingrays.
...His first day, Joe Kid should not have to be introduced to "Superstar Sam's Dad" who might be able to hook him up with a real carbon fiber bike and clip ins, because his Stingray is so obviously a pile of junk....etc, etc...
That is what has truly been lost in the evolution. Joe kid shows up with his Huffy bandit, and gets creamed by the "Carbon Fiber Kid" in the beginners class, and quits.....
"Make it easier to race" ....Right on the money Cash.
Joe Kid on a Stingray should be able to ride up to the track and register to race for the first time, Pay his fees, and have fun for the entire summer, and race all the other kids on thier Stingrays.
...His first day, Joe Kid should not have to be introduced to "Superstar Sam's Dad" who might be able to hook him up with a real carbon fiber bike and clip ins, because his Stingray is so obviously a pile of junk....etc, etc...
That is what has truly been lost in the evolution. Joe kid shows up with his Huffy bandit, and gets creamed by the "Carbon Fiber Kid" in the beginners class, and quits.....
"Make it easier to race" ....Right on the money Cash.
Well said. Sort of sums up the 15 pages of discussion on this one.
and Yaks too.
I know that the number of wins seem high to get to expert but............
Just a few things to consider.
ABA rules has to cover all tracks nation wide, from 5 moto races to 30 moto races.
In some states you can race 5 or more times a week, while others race 4 times a month.
Career Novices has more to do with the riders attitude than the move up rules. I understand old school because I moved up to expert with 5 wins.
The number of wins were increased due to a posibilty of a fast beginer being able to race a lot localy and turning X in 3 months. That rider is not ready for the X class and usualy will get his arse handed to him and quit. On the other side you have areas that race once a week and so even if you won every race you entered it would take more than half the year. My feeling is if every rider just went out a did the best they can, not save wins for a bigger race then we will all be fine. Real simple, SANDBAGGERS ruin it for the rest of us. What happend to trying to win every race you entered and wanting to be Expert. I reclassed and will be in Inter, but I look forward to earning my wins and moving up. This is not starting over, I was credited with wins so I only get to win 5 more to be back in Expert. If I go to a Nat as an Inter and do well I'll move myself up. I don't need a trophy to teel me I'm expert. It is about getting on the gate and testing the level of riding that I am at. Any former expert could not possibly be proud of a Inter win or big trophy.
Changstar
Just a few things to consider.
ABA rules has to cover all tracks nation wide, from 5 moto races to 30 moto races.
In some states you can race 5 or more times a week, while others race 4 times a month.
Career Novices has more to do with the riders attitude than the move up rules. I understand old school because I moved up to expert with 5 wins.
The number of wins were increased due to a posibilty of a fast beginer being able to race a lot localy and turning X in 3 months. That rider is not ready for the X class and usualy will get his arse handed to him and quit. On the other side you have areas that race once a week and so even if you won every race you entered it would take more than half the year. My feeling is if every rider just went out a did the best they can, not save wins for a bigger race then we will all be fine. Real simple, SANDBAGGERS ruin it for the rest of us. What happend to trying to win every race you entered and wanting to be Expert. I reclassed and will be in Inter, but I look forward to earning my wins and moving up. This is not starting over, I was credited with wins so I only get to win 5 more to be back in Expert. If I go to a Nat as an Inter and do well I'll move myself up. I don't need a trophy to teel me I'm expert. It is about getting on the gate and testing the level of riding that I am at. Any former expert could not possibly be proud of a Inter win or big trophy.
Changstar
I gave the people at ABA a link to this thread and all of our "Yaking".
Any ABA rule changes will take some support from track operators and racers, and parents of racers.
If you agree that limiting the technology (aka weight reductions) on bikes in the beginners, and intermediate classes, or restrictions on clips in the beginners class, less catering to factions, or any of the other ideas we have had here that would help it grow, and require an ABA stamp of approval, 2006 is coming fast, and now would be the time to contact them and support the ideas.
Weigh in those bikes, and give riders incentive, and parents time, to move up to the CF/expert class. Let the bikes progress at the same pace as the riders ability. That was my input to them. But it wont happen without support.
Any ABA rule changes will take some support from track operators and racers, and parents of racers.
If you agree that limiting the technology (aka weight reductions) on bikes in the beginners, and intermediate classes, or restrictions on clips in the beginners class, less catering to factions, or any of the other ideas we have had here that would help it grow, and require an ABA stamp of approval, 2006 is coming fast, and now would be the time to contact them and support the ideas.
Weigh in those bikes, and give riders incentive, and parents time, to move up to the CF/expert class. Let the bikes progress at the same pace as the riders ability. That was my input to them. But it wont happen without support.
All things come down to money. Clip shoe and pedal companies won't want a restriction on who can use them, my personal opinion is that you should be expert to use them. People will always pay to have an advantage over the competition. So manufacturers will be more than happy to cash in on those. Look at the old days when a good fork could last you years. Now people will pay more to have a Carbon fork that is lighter and not last as long. Then buy a new one every year. If you want to get away from clips and Carbon forks, make tracks that would make using those items not an advantage. Forks don't have to be as strong because landings are not as harsh. You don't have to take your foot off for turns anymore, so everybody can clip in. Get it? Don't ban items, just change the demands of what is needed for a good race bike. If suddenly clips made you slower do you think people will still use them?
quote:Watch, the changes you'll see in 2007 will be a new Yak category....
I gave the people at ABA a link to this thread
You seem to be missing the entire point here Jase.
Therefore the parents have made BMX into a sport of "checkbook racing" for the parents in the beginners class, and most parents won't put up with a 2000 dollar fee for their kid to become a competetive beginner, so they wont let the kid continue, or the kid hates it from the get-go.
You want competition? Larger Moto Counts? Limiting a beginner to a 20 pound bike makes for simple cost effective competition for the beginner's parents. The parent can grease, and lube, and tune the bike however they want to, and add CF forks if they want to, or even add sew up tires, just as long as the bike weighs 20 (hypothetical number, but close) pounds on race day.
The incentive to win and move down to a 17 pound bike in the inter class would be there, and the parent would then be able to add lighter wheels, and a few other parts. Still cost effective, and stil good competition. The incentive to move up to expert is increased too, so that the fast kids can use whatever they want and go even faster.
I am not going to spend 2000 bucks on a another bike for my kid that he will out grow in a year or 2. But some parents will. That's not racing, that is hurting the sport. My kid may give up by then too. I hope not.
Carbon Fiber is ALWAYS an EXPENSIVE advantage for any 5-12 year old, on ANY track. Even if a kid did have a mini BITD, it was only a few pounds lighter. Nowadays, a mini costs 2000 bucks, and is half the weight. Pure Checkbook racing at the Beginners level, and it is crap.
I am sick to death of seeing my kid get whooped by 10 pound bikes in the beginners class, and so is he. He thinks racing is "Ho-Hum", because it is not fair that those other kids get to use "Those Little Bikes". And I am sick of Parents who have no racing background whatsoever telling me what "I NEED" to make my kid go fast (MONEY). If I was a parent with no ties to BMX, I probably would have told them to shove thier checkbook racing sport a long time ago. But I would rather teach my kid other values.
Sorry Jason, But I think you are completely backwards on this one. You don't change every race track in the country, as the answer. Change the ABA rules, so that Joe Kid can show up, pay his Quarter, and make a race of it in the beginners class.
Experts could still do whatever they please. But tell the parents to save that 10 pound bike for the day their kid becomes an expert. For the 13-18 year olds carbon fiber checkbook racing is not really as big of an issue, so they remain largely unaffected anyway.
But if you want to get the youth to start racing, adjust the rules so that the parent can go to the bike store, buy a bike, and the kid goes racing. Then the bike can be improved as the kid improves, not the day he signs up.....
I don't care what the manufacturers of toe clips think, or whether they make you faster, or slower, I just want the ABA to Make some rules that shows they are thinking of the beginner kids, and parents!!!!
Make it simple, and cost effective, to start racing again. Or it will die off again...
quote:6 year olds are not paying for anything. Neither are 10 year olds.
People will always pay to have an advantage over the competition.
Therefore the parents have made BMX into a sport of "checkbook racing" for the parents in the beginners class, and most parents won't put up with a 2000 dollar fee for their kid to become a competetive beginner, so they wont let the kid continue, or the kid hates it from the get-go.
You want competition? Larger Moto Counts? Limiting a beginner to a 20 pound bike makes for simple cost effective competition for the beginner's parents. The parent can grease, and lube, and tune the bike however they want to, and add CF forks if they want to, or even add sew up tires, just as long as the bike weighs 20 (hypothetical number, but close) pounds on race day.
The incentive to win and move down to a 17 pound bike in the inter class would be there, and the parent would then be able to add lighter wheels, and a few other parts. Still cost effective, and stil good competition. The incentive to move up to expert is increased too, so that the fast kids can use whatever they want and go even faster.
I am not going to spend 2000 bucks on a another bike for my kid that he will out grow in a year or 2. But some parents will. That's not racing, that is hurting the sport. My kid may give up by then too. I hope not.
Carbon Fiber is ALWAYS an EXPENSIVE advantage for any 5-12 year old, on ANY track. Even if a kid did have a mini BITD, it was only a few pounds lighter. Nowadays, a mini costs 2000 bucks, and is half the weight. Pure Checkbook racing at the Beginners level, and it is crap.
I am sick to death of seeing my kid get whooped by 10 pound bikes in the beginners class, and so is he. He thinks racing is "Ho-Hum", because it is not fair that those other kids get to use "Those Little Bikes". And I am sick of Parents who have no racing background whatsoever telling me what "I NEED" to make my kid go fast (MONEY). If I was a parent with no ties to BMX, I probably would have told them to shove thier checkbook racing sport a long time ago. But I would rather teach my kid other values.
Sorry Jason, But I think you are completely backwards on this one. You don't change every race track in the country, as the answer. Change the ABA rules, so that Joe Kid can show up, pay his Quarter, and make a race of it in the beginners class.
Experts could still do whatever they please. But tell the parents to save that 10 pound bike for the day their kid becomes an expert. For the 13-18 year olds carbon fiber checkbook racing is not really as big of an issue, so they remain largely unaffected anyway.
But if you want to get the youth to start racing, adjust the rules so that the parent can go to the bike store, buy a bike, and the kid goes racing. Then the bike can be improved as the kid improves, not the day he signs up.....
I don't care what the manufacturers of toe clips think, or whether they make you faster, or slower, I just want the ABA to Make some rules that shows they are thinking of the beginner kids, and parents!!!!
Make it simple, and cost effective, to start racing again. Or it will die off again...
quote:Im way ahead of you Reilley, already putting a proposal together to have your German Yaks banned from competition.
Watch, the changes you'll see in 2007 will be a new Yak category....
quote:Now that's funny! And rings an air of ironic truths in this modern world we live in too!......
Watch, the changes you'll see in 2007 will be a new Yak category....
You are a very funny dude Rick!.....lol ..
quote:No side-yaks again in 2007?? damn!!!
already putting a proposal together to have your German Yaks banned from competition
[ December 27, 2005, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
how come when i hear vomit i think of yak?
cause they smell?
Ask Elvis, he brought up the topic.
Ask Elvis, he brought up the topic.
I hear ya on the money thing. I did not mean that we need to change all the tracks. My point was equipment is designed to meet the needs of the competition. A weight rule makes sense but will be hard to enforce. I am a former track operator, and there is so much to do on a race day that adding a person to weigh all the bikes, and dealing with always have a perfect scale is tough. This will lead to more people trying to cheat. Then having to deal with protest and reweighing bikes. Right now anyone with money can buy a carbon fork. A weight rule will not sit well with product manufacturer's of light parts. Do I get a Ti botom bracket or a carbon fork? Right now they can buy both, a weight rule would have people choosing one or the other.
quote:Are you sure about that?....If there are more kids in the beginners classes, and the moto counts are larger, then it stands to reason that more people will be entering the inter classes, and more people to expert classes.
A weight rule will not sit well with product manufacturer's of light parts.
More riders, means more product sales. And clearly categorized bikes, may mean more bikes sold. Yet, it can happen at a more favorable pace to the new guy.
If people want to cheat by a pound in the beginners classes, so be it, as far as I am concerned they already are!!!! They will ultimately be the biggest losers.
Imagine how much of an advantage a kid would have after dropping 3 pounds off of his bike when entering the inter class, after riding a heavier one in beginner.
I don't have all the correct answers. But some things clearly could be improved on, and others need serious help asap. As Johnny said, "nothing gets done unless somebody does it".
Until you are a parent walking into a BMX track with a beginner, you may never understand a lot of these most recent comments.
[ December 27, 2005, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
A couple of thoughts on the previous posts:
1. Limiting the weight limit on bikes: That is a great idea to me! Now Huffy, Mongoose, Murray, Next, Walmart, etc all have a pony in the game without changing production capacity!!! Brilliant
2. Clips. Love em or hate em, who cares, but consider this: There used to be lots of shoe manufacturers in BMX. Vans, Tom McCann, etc. Those all sort of went away with the clip revolution. If someon had just told Lopes back in the day that he couldn't run clip pedals, then we wouldn't be dealing with this now. Back to the basics: This is a kids sport and kids shouldn't run clips. Ban em!! If I run a track, well, I will hold my thoughts on that one for the time being.
A true beginners class is totally necessary. Regardless of age, beginners need to race only beginners to stay in the sport. Put a new 13, 8, 12, and 17 together and you might get some pretty good racing!!! We need the same thing in cruiser for the old guns. Beginner cruiser. 21 and under, 22 and older. It makes sense to me.
1. Limiting the weight limit on bikes: That is a great idea to me! Now Huffy, Mongoose, Murray, Next, Walmart, etc all have a pony in the game without changing production capacity!!! Brilliant
2. Clips. Love em or hate em, who cares, but consider this: There used to be lots of shoe manufacturers in BMX. Vans, Tom McCann, etc. Those all sort of went away with the clip revolution. If someon had just told Lopes back in the day that he couldn't run clip pedals, then we wouldn't be dealing with this now. Back to the basics: This is a kids sport and kids shouldn't run clips. Ban em!! If I run a track, well, I will hold my thoughts on that one for the time being.
A true beginners class is totally necessary. Regardless of age, beginners need to race only beginners to stay in the sport. Put a new 13, 8, 12, and 17 together and you might get some pretty good racing!!! We need the same thing in cruiser for the old guns. Beginner cruiser. 21 and under, 22 and older. It makes sense to me.
My very first race was on a Stingray at Ted Carl's dad's track. At the time that was the furthest track away from any of us. I'm pretty sure there were Yaks within two miles of that track. The Yaks were underfed and too light to be raced due to the beginner Yak weight limit so I raced my Stingray. I also remember some of my friends sharing bikes if they were in different classes.
We all first learned to ride on flats. let's keep a track type that is a "first track" to learn on, a novice style or beginner track, clips not needed or not desired, when you want to put a foot down on said track.
Just a few thoughts.
The ABA tried a "Stock class", (heavier Wal-Mart type bikes for beginners) didnt work. in the time that the ABA ran this program our track didnt get 1 single entrant in the class
Clips, personally I hate 'em and I agree with Cash that someone (sanctions) should have stopped it right at the beginning, but they didnt, and they arent going to now. Ive mentioned several times that we should run a "No Clips" series locally one night a week. I backed off to avoid being beaten up. (same with the off camber last turn I had planned)
The arguement is, Why should my kid, who learned how to ride on clips and uses them everywhere else he goes, be forced to race without them in order to stay competive points wise, AND its more dangerous for him because he usually doesnt ride the track at race speeds without dancing shoes.
I cant Imagine a track having a general "no clips " policy without big problems, even if limiting it to the Nov. class. I know the arguement that novice riders need to develop riding skills before they clip in, and I encourage them to do just that, but my opinion is just the opposite, If the sanctions are going to ban clips, ban them at the Pro level. This is going to demonstrate to the younger kids that you dont need to clip in to be fast and it would go a long way toward eliminating their desire to clip in, the Pros started it and a nation of BMX youth followed suit for better or worse, its going to take a movement by those riders to turn it around, and I dont see that happening.
BMX as it is, is the best youth sport going.
The 3 most important things in BMX are
1) recruiting new riders.
2) recruiting new riders.
3) recruiting new riders.
Carbon fiber and clip-in pedals dont make the top 30.
The ABA tried a "Stock class", (heavier Wal-Mart type bikes for beginners) didnt work. in the time that the ABA ran this program our track didnt get 1 single entrant in the class
quote:Competitive minis can be purchased new for under $400. Beginners dont need, and dont benefit from carbon fiber, in all my years around BMX I have never once seen a novice race where I thought to myself "that kid would have won if he only had a carbon fiber fork". in the expert level classes when your talking about kids under 100 lbs or so where a race is won by inches then yeah, maybe a little carbon fiber would make a fraction of a second of differance, but if a novice is coming in second place by 5-6 feet or more, all the carbon fiber in the world is not going to make up that distance.
Therefore the parents have made BMX into a sport of "checkbook racing" for the parents in the beginners class, and most parents won't put up with a 2000 dollar fee for their kid to become a competetive beginner
Clips, personally I hate 'em and I agree with Cash that someone (sanctions) should have stopped it right at the beginning, but they didnt, and they arent going to now. Ive mentioned several times that we should run a "No Clips" series locally one night a week. I backed off to avoid being beaten up. (same with the off camber last turn I had planned)
The arguement is, Why should my kid, who learned how to ride on clips and uses them everywhere else he goes, be forced to race without them in order to stay competive points wise, AND its more dangerous for him because he usually doesnt ride the track at race speeds without dancing shoes.
I cant Imagine a track having a general "no clips " policy without big problems, even if limiting it to the Nov. class. I know the arguement that novice riders need to develop riding skills before they clip in, and I encourage them to do just that, but my opinion is just the opposite, If the sanctions are going to ban clips, ban them at the Pro level. This is going to demonstrate to the younger kids that you dont need to clip in to be fast and it would go a long way toward eliminating their desire to clip in, the Pros started it and a nation of BMX youth followed suit for better or worse, its going to take a movement by those riders to turn it around, and I dont see that happening.
BMX as it is, is the best youth sport going.
The 3 most important things in BMX are
1) recruiting new riders.
2) recruiting new riders.
3) recruiting new riders.
Carbon fiber and clip-in pedals dont make the top 30.
yeah that street stock class was a dismal failure at emerald valley and we promoted the hell out of it in schools and such
Interesting comments on the Street Stock class.
I guess the difference I see would be voluntarily entering a class of stock bikes vs. the ABA requiring a weigh in at registration for beginners. If you hung your bike up at the registration booth, and got a sticker for the number plate that day. I don't think you would have the same results as you did with a voluntary stock class.
As for protests. I'd say beginners would have few or none. The intermediates may have a few. But the experts and pros would still be unlimited, and those are the ones serious enough to protest an ounce.
Hang it up and settle it. I don't even think it would need to be super calibrated deal either. A 50 pound digital fish scale from the sporting goods store would be sufficient.
I agree, one carbon fiber fork is not enough in itself to turn the tides for most. But Half the al up weight of what most beginners show up with certainly is. Even at 400 dollars for a used one, the parent just bought "Another" bike to store and maintain, just for the kid to compete with as a beginner, and the beginner should not have to until the kid is commited in the sport, or has graduated to Intermediate class.
Getting them in for one or 2 races is one thing, getting them hooked into it to stay is another.
Understand this logic too, Beginners are often moved up to inter class, or up an age bracket, when classes are short. If the inter bikes are only a few pounds lighter, and not full CF bikes, then the beginner still has a chance. Likewise if the 8 year old is placed with 9 year old beginners, equal weight bikes would level the playing field further there too. Because an 8 beginner on a 21 pound nice stock Red Line bike, really has no chance with 9 year olds using a 10 pound CF bike.
If it was in the rule books, I think the ones that already have full on race bikes in the beginners class would scream foul. But they can save them for the move up, and it would provide more encouragement to prevent "Sandbagging" as well. I think weight rules on the classes would draw a lot of new blood from the street.
I guess the difference I see would be voluntarily entering a class of stock bikes vs. the ABA requiring a weigh in at registration for beginners. If you hung your bike up at the registration booth, and got a sticker for the number plate that day. I don't think you would have the same results as you did with a voluntary stock class.
As for protests. I'd say beginners would have few or none. The intermediates may have a few. But the experts and pros would still be unlimited, and those are the ones serious enough to protest an ounce.
Hang it up and settle it. I don't even think it would need to be super calibrated deal either. A 50 pound digital fish scale from the sporting goods store would be sufficient.
I agree, one carbon fiber fork is not enough in itself to turn the tides for most. But Half the al up weight of what most beginners show up with certainly is. Even at 400 dollars for a used one, the parent just bought "Another" bike to store and maintain, just for the kid to compete with as a beginner, and the beginner should not have to until the kid is commited in the sport, or has graduated to Intermediate class.
Getting them in for one or 2 races is one thing, getting them hooked into it to stay is another.
Understand this logic too, Beginners are often moved up to inter class, or up an age bracket, when classes are short. If the inter bikes are only a few pounds lighter, and not full CF bikes, then the beginner still has a chance. Likewise if the 8 year old is placed with 9 year old beginners, equal weight bikes would level the playing field further there too. Because an 8 beginner on a 21 pound nice stock Red Line bike, really has no chance with 9 year olds using a 10 pound CF bike.
If it was in the rule books, I think the ones that already have full on race bikes in the beginners class would scream foul. But they can save them for the move up, and it would provide more encouragement to prevent "Sandbagging" as well. I think weight rules on the classes would draw a lot of new blood from the street.
Honestly weight restrictions at any level of racing(local to national) just brings one more headache for the T.O. weighing bikes, making sure kids ride the same bike they weighed in, dealing with protests because little Johnnies dad switched to a lighter wheelset after weigh in.
Maybe I wasnt clear in my post, but the differance between a stock Redline race mini and a full blown CF race bike is not enough to determine the outcome of a novice race.( if your 8 novice is on any bike that weighs 21 lbs its the wrong size bike for him) many NEW brands of minis can be had for under $400 and used ones are considerably cheaper and the differance between the redline and the fullout CF bike is only a few lbs. If a 10 nov. shows up at the track with a 25 lb. wal-mart bike he will be at a disadvantage certainly, but he would also be at a disadvantage if he showed up to a hockey game with skates that dont fit, but we dont see Jr. hockey leagues with a special "my skates are too big class". If a parent wants their son/daughter to be involved, and the child shows interest and apptitude, then they will have to supply the proper equipment, that means buying a race specific bike for racing.
[ December 28, 2005, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: RCain ]
Maybe I wasnt clear in my post, but the differance between a stock Redline race mini and a full blown CF race bike is not enough to determine the outcome of a novice race.( if your 8 novice is on any bike that weighs 21 lbs its the wrong size bike for him) many NEW brands of minis can be had for under $400 and used ones are considerably cheaper and the differance between the redline and the fullout CF bike is only a few lbs. If a 10 nov. shows up at the track with a 25 lb. wal-mart bike he will be at a disadvantage certainly, but he would also be at a disadvantage if he showed up to a hockey game with skates that dont fit, but we dont see Jr. hockey leagues with a special "my skates are too big class". If a parent wants their son/daughter to be involved, and the child shows interest and apptitude, then they will have to supply the proper equipment, that means buying a race specific bike for racing.
[ December 28, 2005, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: RCain ]
I think we are forgetting a BIG part of the equation: the local bike shop. Back in the day almost every shop sponsored a team, the kids would flock to the shop that had the best rider or a best team. Even your average shop had a following and that equated to a customer base.
Oz always was a big supporter of the local bike shop cause he knew they were the roots of the racing. For years he refused to carry ads from mail-order houses.
I see a direct connection between mail order houses and the decline of BMX. Prices were indeed cheaper but it's hard to hang out with your buddies checking out the latest catalog instead of something real in the front window of your local shop.
Steve Rink, Bob Bohn, Wes (and later Bill Barteau when he bought out Wes), Emerson, the late Rich Long, Jim Melton, the late Sandy Finkleman, the late Tom DeRosier and many countless bike shop owners provided a central meeting point for racers, people who wanted to be racers and all out groupies (this legendary group of people also includes Rick Twomey who might had or not had a shop)
They also provided rides to the races, connections to the fabled "Co-sponsorship" and even served as father figures for many of us (even those who already had a father figure before my dad reads this!)
To add to Johnny Johnson's post, You cannot bring the local bike shop in many places, but the mentality of helping out kids was passed over to many a mom and dad who dragged 10 kids, 10 bikes and 2 sidehacks to unknown numerous races.
If we can bring this back, BMX (clipless or not) could make a comeback
Oz always was a big supporter of the local bike shop cause he knew they were the roots of the racing. For years he refused to carry ads from mail-order houses.
I see a direct connection between mail order houses and the decline of BMX. Prices were indeed cheaper but it's hard to hang out with your buddies checking out the latest catalog instead of something real in the front window of your local shop.
Steve Rink, Bob Bohn, Wes (and later Bill Barteau when he bought out Wes), Emerson, the late Rich Long, Jim Melton, the late Sandy Finkleman, the late Tom DeRosier and many countless bike shop owners provided a central meeting point for racers, people who wanted to be racers and all out groupies (this legendary group of people also includes Rick Twomey who might had or not had a shop)
They also provided rides to the races, connections to the fabled "Co-sponsorship" and even served as father figures for many of us (even those who already had a father figure before my dad reads this!)
To add to Johnny Johnson's post, You cannot bring the local bike shop in many places, but the mentality of helping out kids was passed over to many a mom and dad who dragged 10 kids, 10 bikes and 2 sidehacks to unknown numerous races.
If we can bring this back, BMX (clipless or not) could make a comeback
I ddn't see mention of a Yak in that post anywhere, but other than that, I think it is spot-on. It seems most of local bike shops here, just think of BMX as another line to sell and rarely have many specialty parts. An old freestyling friend of mine ended up working at and eventually managing TCBMX, which was a BMX specialty shop. They also ended up doing mailorder. He's positive that a BMX specialty shop could thrive again in this area. Of course, he's more into MTBs now. But back to the local shops, they don't seem to dedicate the floor and display space to BMX and all the neato parts. The bike business does go in cycles, though, and maybe BMX will start to take over the shops again. Maybe we just need more guys like Rick Twomey who had a team without a shop.
I think the problem is Vintage bikes. We're all scarfing them up like rabid rabbits and not buying all the new parts we should.
Many of us have kids, and like good parents, we're afraid our offspring will get hurt. Thank goodness safety gear is much better. I'd probably ride the new tracks, too, but only because I've kept my skills fairly sharp from Mountainbikng. There's a lot of good ideas in here. Me, I just want to build a two or 3 person downhill track in my backyard. I've been thinking about it for 3 years now. It will probably end with a lake jump. If I can get some of the local kids interested in it, that's a start. I got my start in a vacant lot with a dirt pile there. We eventually built it way up. Some of it was like singletrack with double jumps, but we had some nice wide areas, too. Last time I was in the area, most of it was still there, and showed some recent use. I don't thin the people there want to develop that property because the trees now provide a nice barrier from a fairly busy street that they created right on top of our newest trail extension at the time.
I think the problem is Vintage bikes. We're all scarfing them up like rabid rabbits and not buying all the new parts we should.
Many of us have kids, and like good parents, we're afraid our offspring will get hurt. Thank goodness safety gear is much better. I'd probably ride the new tracks, too, but only because I've kept my skills fairly sharp from Mountainbikng. There's a lot of good ideas in here. Me, I just want to build a two or 3 person downhill track in my backyard. I've been thinking about it for 3 years now. It will probably end with a lake jump. If I can get some of the local kids interested in it, that's a start. I got my start in a vacant lot with a dirt pile there. We eventually built it way up. Some of it was like singletrack with double jumps, but we had some nice wide areas, too. Last time I was in the area, most of it was still there, and showed some recent use. I don't thin the people there want to develop that property because the trees now provide a nice barrier from a fairly busy street that they created right on top of our newest trail extension at the time.
Maybe new mags liek BMX World and Twenty will see this thread and also stop carrying mail order adds. Maybe they will have a Bike Shop add page for those shops that do support BMX. Here in Socal most bike shops dont carry any BMX Mags or hand out ABA or NBL papers or even have a bulletin board with flyers to local tracks or local nationals.
maybe if the mags catered to them they would change their attiutde torward BMX racing. I remember all the great shops back when I got started,
Pedalers East, Langleys, Action Wheels, Martys and Petes, Bike World in Howell. When I moved to Cali it was Hank and Frank, Coast Wheels, Crossroads Schwinn, BC Bikes, and Bike Alley
All had huge teams.
maybe the ABA and NBL could make sure only Bike Shop teams are entered in the Bike Shop division.
Maybe the ABA and NBL could add a Bike Shop standings for each state and all double and triple pointers in the state count as well as nationals and CGQ etc. But again only real Bike Shops can enter teams.
maybe if the mags catered to them they would change their attiutde torward BMX racing. I remember all the great shops back when I got started,
Pedalers East, Langleys, Action Wheels, Martys and Petes, Bike World in Howell. When I moved to Cali it was Hank and Frank, Coast Wheels, Crossroads Schwinn, BC Bikes, and Bike Alley
All had huge teams.
maybe the ABA and NBL could make sure only Bike Shop teams are entered in the Bike Shop division.
Maybe the ABA and NBL could add a Bike Shop standings for each state and all double and triple pointers in the state count as well as nationals and CGQ etc. But again only real Bike Shops can enter teams.
I like the idea of bike shop teams racing in the bike shop division of the ABA. Perhaps they could reward the top bike shop team with a free add for a year or something! Right now the line is blurred as to what is a bike shop team etc.
We used to run 4 man Team relay races....those were a BLAST!!!!! Drop your bike at the finish line and run up the starting hill to the starting gate and tag your team mate!!!!! GOOD TIMES!!!!
Sorry for the fillibuster again....
I could not agree more Reilley that the LBSs are a big part of the problem as well! Valid point!
Brick and mortar stores are virtually a thing of the past. And the Bike Stores around here have ZERO BMX stuff. None, Nada....Maybe a few bikes with Pegs, but that is all.....No parts, no jerseys, no helmets, no 160mm cranks......Where do you get the stuff!? And What stuff do you want!? Crupi, what's that?
The single parent mom shows up at the kid's first race with the Schwinn they bought at Target , or the Mongoose they bought at Walmart, or even the Red Line Expert they bought at the LBS (just like my kid's "21 pound tank"), And what you just said, is the FIRST THING the parent hears when they bring their kid to the races for the first time!
... You bought the wrong bike!..."Your kid is never going to have a chance on that thing." You NEED to go buy him a "Red Line Race Mini" or a "Specialized Race Mini" or a Crupi Race Mini". And then you need to put the right length cranks on it, and some smaller handlebars. And a Uni-seat. Weight is every-thing nowadays, It's ALL about the weight! "Those tires you have on his bike are too huge, he will never win a race with those things on there!".....Go talk to that guy, "Mike", he has a set of crupi rims for sale for 350 dollars.... And Laurie over there has a "Specialized Racing Mini frame and fork", I think she only wants 250 for it... I know, because I heard it a thousand times! "You need to get him a Mini Racing Bike, or he will NEVER WIN", and NOBODY sells them at ANY LBS that I have been to in the entire metro area (and I search the stores for OS parts!)!!!! ( The kid has got 4 bikes already! now I NEED another one for the beginners class!) Because the Red Line Expert Aluminum Frame with sealed hubs and 7x rims, and shorter cranks SUCKS, and is a TANK, and I bought the wrong bike!!!!? What does a non-VBMX parent think of all this!!!!???
The typical new parent says...Well..." Where can I buy a "Red Line Mini"? or a "Specialized Mini"? How much does that cost? I just spent 120 dollars on this bike for him! What do you mean it wont work? What cranks do I need to buy then? Who can put this together for me, I don't have many tools? What sized tires do I need again? Where do I buy these clip shoe things? What do you mean they wont work on sheemanos? What's wrong with his sprockets again?
And to top it off, the guy that just told the parent that they bought the wrong bike, and starts preaching minis', says..." well, unless you ever go through Duluth, you have to find them online"... And the parent says, "I don't shop online"....Game over....that kid is done....sign him up for baseball.
And the Experts all say....let him go, he was a loser anyway. They didn't know crap! ....Low moto count!
There are rules in ALL racing. It is not like the TO has to tear down an engine and inspect it, like he would in a snowmobile racing protest! Or weigh a car chassis! He simply has to walk a bicycle over to a scale, and hang it up. Either he was cheating, or he was not. Read the numbers, not a big deal.
At sign in, The bike gets hung up, and the sticker of the day goes on the number plate. Bike inspections have been going on since the 70's. ....Axles are too long cut them off or you can't race today(Joe kid video).
1. Put the young beginners on the regular bikes from the stores, be it Target, Walmart, The Schwinn dealer, Erik's Bike shop, or wherever (because there are no BMX specialty shops anymore, so don't overwhelm the new parent by having to spend fortunes trying to buy unknown parts in cyberspace!). Beginners ain't gonna protest, and if they do, walk the bike over to the scale. If Dad changed wheels on it.....The scale shows 18 pounds, the kid is DQ'd for the race, and 2 weeks more. It wont happen again! And 20 pounds would still offers some pretty good mods to the bike!!! ( I just weighed the bike I won the Worlds on, in the 14 Expert class....It weighs 27 Pounds!!!!! Think about that! It wouldn't affect the big kids at all!!!)(My kids Red Line Expert weighs 21 pounds straight from the store!)
I am only trying to find possible ideas to help beginners join the ABA and keep racing! And the potential for 5-12 year old beginners is a HUGE amount of riders! Big kids ride big bikes, and they all weigh more than 20 pounds anyway. It is all about the huge number of young kids being turned away cuz they don't have a " 13.9 pound Redline Flight Racing-Mini at $632 plus shipping" and then some....
Maybe 4-7 year old beginners should be allowed a lower weight limit geared towards 16 inch bikes, and stock, less expensive mini's...too???
2. Allow the intermediates on lower line "Redline Proline Racing Mini's or juniors". They are involved in the sport now and can buy a new bike, but still may not want to spend a fortune on it.
3. Experts can do whatever they want.
Consider this as well....If the ABA DID have weight restrictions on "Beginners" bikes. The TO's could not only offer Loaner Helmets, But they could offer a few 20 pound loaner Beginner Mongoose Racing Bikes from Target to the 8-12 year olds, and offer a few 17 pound loaner beginner mini's to the 4-7 year olds! And the bikes would all be on par, and competitive for that new wannabe kid!!!! The kid could ride an ABA "Regulation" "Beginners Class" bike, just like all the rest on the track!!!!...And stand a real chance at competing on a loaner bike in his first race!!!! That would be huge!!!!
My friend brought his kids to one of my son's races this summer, and his kids wanted to race SOOO bad, please, please, please, but they don't have racing bikes. Think if they could have gone to registration booth, and been offered a helmet, and a pre-weighed bike to race for the day! There would have been 2 more ABA members THAT DAY!!!!!! And their Dad could have been shopping for 2 reasonable beginners bikes for them at Target or the LBS, the very next day! As it stands, he is not sure he wants to spend all that money on Carbon fiber race bikes for 2 kids, and doesn't have a clue where to find them, or what to look for!!! True Story!.....If I could tell him, go to Target, or the LBS, and make sure the bike does not weigh less than xx pounds. He would be set! Going shopping! and...Upgrade later!
All I know for sure, is that It is pretty sad when you kid shows up on this bike, and all you hear is how he does not stand a chance unless you buy him a real bike, and worse, you know that it is true, because the other kids have a full 10 pound advantage on his bike, and smaller tires.......Something is very wrong with the whole scene.....And I feel that it is deterring new racers.
....ps...note. Slip on vans baby! His Dad may have bought him a loser bike, but the old man knows how to put him in stylin' shoes! lol
[ December 29, 2005, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
Sorry for the fillibuster again....
I could not agree more Reilley that the LBSs are a big part of the problem as well! Valid point!
Brick and mortar stores are virtually a thing of the past. And the Bike Stores around here have ZERO BMX stuff. None, Nada....Maybe a few bikes with Pegs, but that is all.....No parts, no jerseys, no helmets, no 160mm cranks......Where do you get the stuff!? And What stuff do you want!? Crupi, what's that?
quote:EXACTLY!!!!! You just said it! Loud and Clear!!! ....(I truly understand your point, but try to understand how your point plays right into mine here)
a stock Redline race mini and a full blown CF race bike is not enough to determine the outcome of a novice race.
The single parent mom shows up at the kid's first race with the Schwinn they bought at Target , or the Mongoose they bought at Walmart, or even the Red Line Expert they bought at the LBS (just like my kid's "21 pound tank"), And what you just said, is the FIRST THING the parent hears when they bring their kid to the races for the first time!
... You bought the wrong bike!..."Your kid is never going to have a chance on that thing." You NEED to go buy him a "Red Line Race Mini" or a "Specialized Race Mini" or a Crupi Race Mini". And then you need to put the right length cranks on it, and some smaller handlebars. And a Uni-seat. Weight is every-thing nowadays, It's ALL about the weight! "Those tires you have on his bike are too huge, he will never win a race with those things on there!".....Go talk to that guy, "Mike", he has a set of crupi rims for sale for 350 dollars.... And Laurie over there has a "Specialized Racing Mini frame and fork", I think she only wants 250 for it... I know, because I heard it a thousand times! "You need to get him a Mini Racing Bike, or he will NEVER WIN", and NOBODY sells them at ANY LBS that I have been to in the entire metro area (and I search the stores for OS parts!)!!!! ( The kid has got 4 bikes already! now I NEED another one for the beginners class!) Because the Red Line Expert Aluminum Frame with sealed hubs and 7x rims, and shorter cranks SUCKS, and is a TANK, and I bought the wrong bike!!!!? What does a non-VBMX parent think of all this!!!!???
The typical new parent says...Well..." Where can I buy a "Red Line Mini"? or a "Specialized Mini"? How much does that cost? I just spent 120 dollars on this bike for him! What do you mean it wont work? What cranks do I need to buy then? Who can put this together for me, I don't have many tools? What sized tires do I need again? Where do I buy these clip shoe things? What do you mean they wont work on sheemanos? What's wrong with his sprockets again?
And to top it off, the guy that just told the parent that they bought the wrong bike, and starts preaching minis', says..." well, unless you ever go through Duluth, you have to find them online"... And the parent says, "I don't shop online"....Game over....that kid is done....sign him up for baseball.
And the Experts all say....let him go, he was a loser anyway. They didn't know crap! ....Low moto count!
There are rules in ALL racing. It is not like the TO has to tear down an engine and inspect it, like he would in a snowmobile racing protest! Or weigh a car chassis! He simply has to walk a bicycle over to a scale, and hang it up. Either he was cheating, or he was not. Read the numbers, not a big deal.
At sign in, The bike gets hung up, and the sticker of the day goes on the number plate. Bike inspections have been going on since the 70's. ....Axles are too long cut them off or you can't race today(Joe kid video).
1. Put the young beginners on the regular bikes from the stores, be it Target, Walmart, The Schwinn dealer, Erik's Bike shop, or wherever (because there are no BMX specialty shops anymore, so don't overwhelm the new parent by having to spend fortunes trying to buy unknown parts in cyberspace!). Beginners ain't gonna protest, and if they do, walk the bike over to the scale. If Dad changed wheels on it.....The scale shows 18 pounds, the kid is DQ'd for the race, and 2 weeks more. It wont happen again! And 20 pounds would still offers some pretty good mods to the bike!!! ( I just weighed the bike I won the Worlds on, in the 14 Expert class....It weighs 27 Pounds!!!!! Think about that! It wouldn't affect the big kids at all!!!)(My kids Red Line Expert weighs 21 pounds straight from the store!)
I am only trying to find possible ideas to help beginners join the ABA and keep racing! And the potential for 5-12 year old beginners is a HUGE amount of riders! Big kids ride big bikes, and they all weigh more than 20 pounds anyway. It is all about the huge number of young kids being turned away cuz they don't have a " 13.9 pound Redline Flight Racing-Mini at $632 plus shipping" and then some....
Maybe 4-7 year old beginners should be allowed a lower weight limit geared towards 16 inch bikes, and stock, less expensive mini's...too???
2. Allow the intermediates on lower line "Redline Proline Racing Mini's or juniors". They are involved in the sport now and can buy a new bike, but still may not want to spend a fortune on it.
3. Experts can do whatever they want.
Consider this as well....If the ABA DID have weight restrictions on "Beginners" bikes. The TO's could not only offer Loaner Helmets, But they could offer a few 20 pound loaner Beginner Mongoose Racing Bikes from Target to the 8-12 year olds, and offer a few 17 pound loaner beginner mini's to the 4-7 year olds! And the bikes would all be on par, and competitive for that new wannabe kid!!!! The kid could ride an ABA "Regulation" "Beginners Class" bike, just like all the rest on the track!!!!...And stand a real chance at competing on a loaner bike in his first race!!!! That would be huge!!!!
My friend brought his kids to one of my son's races this summer, and his kids wanted to race SOOO bad, please, please, please, but they don't have racing bikes. Think if they could have gone to registration booth, and been offered a helmet, and a pre-weighed bike to race for the day! There would have been 2 more ABA members THAT DAY!!!!!! And their Dad could have been shopping for 2 reasonable beginners bikes for them at Target or the LBS, the very next day! As it stands, he is not sure he wants to spend all that money on Carbon fiber race bikes for 2 kids, and doesn't have a clue where to find them, or what to look for!!! True Story!.....If I could tell him, go to Target, or the LBS, and make sure the bike does not weigh less than xx pounds. He would be set! Going shopping! and...Upgrade later!
All I know for sure, is that It is pretty sad when you kid shows up on this bike, and all you hear is how he does not stand a chance unless you buy him a real bike, and worse, you know that it is true, because the other kids have a full 10 pound advantage on his bike, and smaller tires.......Something is very wrong with the whole scene.....And I feel that it is deterring new racers.
....ps...note. Slip on vans baby! His Dad may have bought him a loser bike, but the old man knows how to put him in stylin' shoes! lol
[ December 29, 2005, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
I can sympathize with your dilemma, it does happen all the time, but what do we tell the parent who did his homework and shows up for their first race on a $400 redline mini? Your son has to race against experts because you bought him the right bike?
I can appreciate that you won the worlds as a 14 ex on a 27 lb bike. But, there hasnt been a 14 ex making a national main an a 27 lb bike for a very long time, as a matter of fact Id bet that there hasnt been a 27 lb bike on _any_ national expert or pro class podium for a long time.
Im not trying to be argumentative here, I have bringing new riders into BMX as a very high priority, its my job, thats what I do.
We have a kid here who has been racing for 3 years now, he started out as an 8 yr old on a full size dept store bike, halfway through his first season his dad bought him a Free Agent Junior size bike for 325.00 brand new(I know because he bought it from me) He has raced that bike(stock) ever since and is now an expert and doing very well. Its not about money,as long as the bike is the right size, he can be competitive in any class nov-ex.
we run a small program in a small town 40-50 riders average, thats 40-50 bikes that would have to be weighed every race, and another (already scarce)volunteer to handle weigh ins, its an even bigger hassle for bigger races with 100+ riders.
I definatly appreciate your desire to bring new riders to the sport, your heart is in the right place, but in the overall scheme of things I believe that this is not a huge reason why tracks are not getting new riders.
If you really cant find a decent bike under $400.00 locally, contact me at northidahobmx@hotmail.com
I have a brand new '05 Redline junior(never been ridden, it was intended to be a loaner for next year) that I will let go for less than retail.
Love the shoes
Randy
quote:sorry ,but maybe you should have gone to the races and seen what kids are riding these days before purchasing a race bike.you didnt buy a "loser" bike, just the wrong size, drop the seat all the way and it will work fine in the nov class until he decides if he wants to stay in BMX. In the mean time, watch his lap times, then borrow a bike that fit him and check lap times again, Im sure that youll see that at his level theres not going to be a significant differance.
the FIRST THING the parent hears when they bring their kid to the races for the first time!
... You bought the wrong bike!
I can appreciate that you won the worlds as a 14 ex on a 27 lb bike. But, there hasnt been a 14 ex making a national main an a 27 lb bike for a very long time, as a matter of fact Id bet that there hasnt been a 27 lb bike on _any_ national expert or pro class podium for a long time.
Im not trying to be argumentative here, I have bringing new riders into BMX as a very high priority, its my job, thats what I do.
We have a kid here who has been racing for 3 years now, he started out as an 8 yr old on a full size dept store bike, halfway through his first season his dad bought him a Free Agent Junior size bike for 325.00 brand new(I know because he bought it from me) He has raced that bike(stock) ever since and is now an expert and doing very well. Its not about money,as long as the bike is the right size, he can be competitive in any class nov-ex.
we run a small program in a small town 40-50 riders average, thats 40-50 bikes that would have to be weighed every race, and another (already scarce)volunteer to handle weigh ins, its an even bigger hassle for bigger races with 100+ riders.
I definatly appreciate your desire to bring new riders to the sport, your heart is in the right place, but in the overall scheme of things I believe that this is not a huge reason why tracks are not getting new riders.
If you really cant find a decent bike under $400.00 locally, contact me at northidahobmx@hotmail.com
I have a brand new '05 Redline junior(never been ridden, it was intended to be a loaner for next year) that I will let go for less than retail.
Love the shoes
Randy
I think a little too much emphasis is being put on equipment. Kids will race (and win) if they have the skills, speed and desire. From the early days when Dave Clinton won the Santa Clara round of the Yamaha gold cup on Bobby Devitt's bike, to a guy whose name i don't remember winning the local Imperial Valley races on a monoshock (long after they were out of style and when freewheels and alloy wheels were already popular) to a few kids I seen lately winning on box stock $200 bikes (or even better, the much maligned Wal-Mart Goose) at local tracks.
A weight restricted class would only complicate matters. What we need is more local involvement of business, Parks and Recreations and parents.
A weight restricted class would only complicate matters. What we need is more local involvement of business, Parks and Recreations and parents.
Agreed Reilley
I just did a little research, a Redline Proline Junior weighs 15 lbs stock and retails for around $300.00. Perfectly competitive right out of the box.
I just did a little research, a Redline Proline Junior weighs 15 lbs stock and retails for around $300.00. Perfectly competitive right out of the box.
quote:Rick gets it, but it seems many of you simply do not.
I think a little too much emphasis is being put on equipment. Kids will race (and win) if they have the skills, speed and desire
Here in the middle of a thread about how to grow the sport (by a bunch of guys that no longer participate in the sport, mind you) comes the idiotic idea to weigh the bikes and class them accordingly? Or even class them as to what they have spent on these bikes? Are you even listening to yourselves anymore?
It is pretty simple RIGHT NOW. Get the overweight, PS2 playing, junk food eating, kids off of the couch and onto the bikes. It truly is as simple as that. It doesn't matter if the kid's parents spent $100 or $1,200 on the bike. Just get the damn kid on the bike and get them to the track.
Come on, it doesn't matter what track. Teach your kids and their friends that we had a blast on our bikes when we were kids. When we were kids, our bikes were our identity, our transportation and our chariots.
Seriously, if you want to make a difference, get your kids (and/or their friends/classmates/neighbors/etc.) onto bikes now and get them to a track soon thereafter. Period
The only "Winner" we want here is BMX racing.....
Imagine going to Target, Walmart, and the LBS, and seeing an "ABA Racing Certified" bike that qualifies for the beginners class, and having it be a competitive machine.
Don't get me wrong here. I know how to dial in the coolest, wickedest, gnarliest, lightest racebike at the track. I could enter my kid with the king of all checkbook bikes. Joe parent does not, and cannot.
Nobody is showing up on one of those, because they are not for sale at Walmart, or Target, or even the LBS's. ....What if that same Proline Junior became a 17 pound bike (cheaper) and it WAS for sale at all the stores for 189 dollars, and labeled as an "ABA Racing Certified" beginners class bike? What if all the similar brand's bikes were now bound to the same initial weight limit and therefore all became cheaper too, and were certified racing bikes, available at stores everywhere!? What if the BMX bike that the parent bought was the correct BMX bike they needed to go start racing.
Now I could tell my buddy Mark to go to the store and buy 2 of those for his kids! He would show up with the right bike, at the right price, and upgrade them as the kids progressed... As it is, he is not sure he wants to dive in to it. It looks too complicated, and difficult, and expensive, to dive into. He was there, at the track, and saw it....He knows he needs 2 minis. Will he do it? Go buy 2 dedicated race bikes, apart from their BMX bikes, just so his kids can try it? Maybe.
This topic is definitely not about me or my kid, I know how it all works, and I can find and build, any bike I want for my kid. But I think the "dialed in veteran" parents have no sensitivity to the masses of parents that buys their kid a new BMX bike, and finds out that a BMX bike is not a BMX racing bike anymore.
Stores are selling BMX bikes. That is what people buy their kids, BMX bikes. 4-12 year olds are not racing BMX bikes anymore, they are pushed right into minis not found in stores. If I am an Idiot for seeing it that way....then so be it.
I do have to laugh at how difficult it is being made out to be for the kid to ride up to the window and put his bike on a hook!......Almost as hard as the cashier at the grocery store sitting the bananas on the scale and ringing them up!....
I am participating, ...and my perspective as parent of a new racer, should not be dismissed as Idiotic, just because my name is no longer on the moto sheets. That aint right....
.I just received a note from an ABA track director Brad Hallin. I had not heard from him for 20 years....he was a local racer from BITD, his comments are interesting as well.
And I just received a call from the gal from the city that wants to help build one track, and re-certify another, to go with the new pool/skate park she just completed...
So If the ideas are so idiotic, what are the answers? More tracks, Yes. Go door to door, dragging kids off the couch? They have to want to show up and race, and they have to want to stay in it once they do? I still say that leveling the playing field would help. And not needing to give up their trusty steed the first day would help too..
[ December 29, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
quote:From what I have seen it does matter. When the new kid does get to the track, if he doesn't have a mini (and they rarely do when they show up), he gets whooped, parent says too expensive, and they quit!
It doesn't matter if the kid's parents spent $100 or $1,200 on the bike. Just get the damn kid on the bike and get them to the track.
Imagine going to Target, Walmart, and the LBS, and seeing an "ABA Racing Certified" bike that qualifies for the beginners class, and having it be a competitive machine.
quote:I agree, that is how my kid feels about his Redline. Unfortunately, his transprtation, and chariot, is not the completely different, and separate race-bike needed to race beginner's class (yes, I can get him a mini, that is not the point). You were able to race your chariot bitd.... Now they need a separate bike just to race and be competitive. BMX bikes sold at the store, are no longer Racing Bikes for 4-12 year olds. BMX bikes, and Racing Bikes are no longer the same.
When we were kids, our bikes were our identity, our transportation and our chariots.
Don't get me wrong here. I know how to dial in the coolest, wickedest, gnarliest, lightest racebike at the track. I could enter my kid with the king of all checkbook bikes. Joe parent does not, and cannot.
quote:Ta-Da!
I just did a little research, a Redline Proline Junior weighs 15 lbs stock and retails for around $300.00. Perfectly competitive right out of the box.
Nobody is showing up on one of those, because they are not for sale at Walmart, or Target, or even the LBS's. ....What if that same Proline Junior became a 17 pound bike (cheaper) and it WAS for sale at all the stores for 189 dollars, and labeled as an "ABA Racing Certified" beginners class bike? What if all the similar brand's bikes were now bound to the same initial weight limit and therefore all became cheaper too, and were certified racing bikes, available at stores everywhere!? What if the BMX bike that the parent bought was the correct BMX bike they needed to go start racing.
Now I could tell my buddy Mark to go to the store and buy 2 of those for his kids! He would show up with the right bike, at the right price, and upgrade them as the kids progressed... As it is, he is not sure he wants to dive in to it. It looks too complicated, and difficult, and expensive, to dive into. He was there, at the track, and saw it....He knows he needs 2 minis. Will he do it? Go buy 2 dedicated race bikes, apart from their BMX bikes, just so his kids can try it? Maybe.
quote:How do you get into NASCAR Racing Ken? By starting with a "Bomber Class" car! Those cars have rules. For starters, anybody can buy your car at the end of the race for 500 bucks! And that keeps the competition fair, and the cars equal, and at levels people can afford, and it is racing for beginners. It prevents a NASCAR from showing up in the class and cleaning house, it prevents checkbook racing at the entry level racing class. Then you work your way up....
Here in the middle of a thread about how to grow the sport (by a bunch of guys that no longer participate in the sport, mind you) comes the idiotic idea to weigh the bikes and class them accordingly? Or even class them as to what they have spent on these bikes? Are you even listening to yourselves anymore?
This topic is definitely not about me or my kid, I know how it all works, and I can find and build, any bike I want for my kid. But I think the "dialed in veteran" parents have no sensitivity to the masses of parents that buys their kid a new BMX bike, and finds out that a BMX bike is not a BMX racing bike anymore.
Stores are selling BMX bikes. That is what people buy their kids, BMX bikes. 4-12 year olds are not racing BMX bikes anymore, they are pushed right into minis not found in stores. If I am an Idiot for seeing it that way....then so be it.
I do have to laugh at how difficult it is being made out to be for the kid to ride up to the window and put his bike on a hook!......Almost as hard as the cashier at the grocery store sitting the bananas on the scale and ringing them up!....
I am participating, ...and my perspective as parent of a new racer, should not be dismissed as Idiotic, just because my name is no longer on the moto sheets. That aint right....
.I just received a note from an ABA track director Brad Hallin. I had not heard from him for 20 years....he was a local racer from BITD, his comments are interesting as well.
And I just received a call from the gal from the city that wants to help build one track, and re-certify another, to go with the new pool/skate park she just completed...
So If the ideas are so idiotic, what are the answers? More tracks, Yes. Go door to door, dragging kids off the couch? They have to want to show up and race, and they have to want to stay in it once they do? I still say that leveling the playing field would help. And not needing to give up their trusty steed the first day would help too..
[ December 29, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
This thread is getting deep.
I will agree that a lighter bike for a smaller rider will help, know doubt about that. I started out on a 40lbs Scrambler and did good ( 1975-76 ) but once I got my Ames Stormer it was amazing how much better I did. I don't think its fair to bring bike quality in to the equation as it just opens up to many cans -o-worms. Run-what-cha-brung
You can buy mini's for very resonable. I saw a new Redline mini with the mini wheels for 249.00 @ bike shop last week.
I race a heavy crappy 90's GT/dyno 24" and I do just fine.
I will agree that a lighter bike for a smaller rider will help, know doubt about that. I started out on a 40lbs Scrambler and did good ( 1975-76 ) but once I got my Ames Stormer it was amazing how much better I did. I don't think its fair to bring bike quality in to the equation as it just opens up to many cans -o-worms. Run-what-cha-brung
You can buy mini's for very resonable. I saw a new Redline mini with the mini wheels for 249.00 @ bike shop last week.
I race a heavy crappy 90's GT/dyno 24" and I do just fine.
Run what ya brung still works like a charm for the 13-17 year old beginners.
...But the lil-guys can't get away with it nowadays....I would love it if they could!....That's how all this started...How to make that happen? How does the lil-guy run what he brung and want to stay for a while?
...But the lil-guys can't get away with it nowadays....I would love it if they could!....That's how all this started...How to make that happen? How does the lil-guy run what he brung and want to stay for a while?
Suzie was married to Bob for eight years. Bob took off with his secretary in 2003. Since the divorce, Suzie has been struggling but has been providing her two boys a decent life in the city.
Suzie's two boys are six and nine. They tried team sports but just didn't click. Billy, the nine year old, heard that his friend races BMX bikes at a local track 15 minutes away. Billy and Robert (the six year old) ask Suzie to bring them to the track to get involved. Suzie loads up the Minivan and heads out to the track with her excited kids.
They arrive at the track and watch Billy's friend take a few laps on his race bike. Billy is stoked! He loves watching this and can hardly wait to try it out himself. That's when it happens. Suzie had gone up to the sign up window to figure out how to sign her two boys up when she was informed that their bikes were too light for the beginner class so they would both be racing against the intermediates today.
Suzie had no problem with the $45 annual membership fee or the race day fee of $8. But, when told that they had to race against better kids because they were on better bikes, Suzie packed them back into the minivan and headed for the Video Store on the way home.
Suzie's boys had two perfectly decent bikes that day. But you guys and your constant "lowering of the bar to make things fair" kept her from exposing her kids to what we all knew and loved.
MORE NEW RULES = LESS NEW RIDERS
Suzie's two boys are six and nine. They tried team sports but just didn't click. Billy, the nine year old, heard that his friend races BMX bikes at a local track 15 minutes away. Billy and Robert (the six year old) ask Suzie to bring them to the track to get involved. Suzie loads up the Minivan and heads out to the track with her excited kids.
They arrive at the track and watch Billy's friend take a few laps on his race bike. Billy is stoked! He loves watching this and can hardly wait to try it out himself. That's when it happens. Suzie had gone up to the sign up window to figure out how to sign her two boys up when she was informed that their bikes were too light for the beginner class so they would both be racing against the intermediates today.
Suzie had no problem with the $45 annual membership fee or the race day fee of $8. But, when told that they had to race against better kids because they were on better bikes, Suzie packed them back into the minivan and headed for the Video Store on the way home.
Suzie's boys had two perfectly decent bikes that day. But you guys and your constant "lowering of the bar to make things fair" kept her from exposing her kids to what we all knew and loved.
MORE NEW RULES = LESS NEW RIDERS
Ted, my point I guess was you don't have to break the bank to get into decent smaller rider bike. Some kids need a better bike for various reasons. I agree and understand what your saying, but my point is that not every kid on a 1500.00 bike is a Geoff Scofield either.
Case and point, as long as kids have fun and are safe is what counts in my eyes. Competition is good for kids but to much of a good thing isn't always what they need.
To make the sport better is a tough topic. I think being from old school ( like most of us) I grew up with the technology as well as the speed as it progressed. I don't think todays bikes are that much better myself. The materials are more durable and a little lighter sure, but the geometry is basically the same.
Case and point, as long as kids have fun and are safe is what counts in my eyes. Competition is good for kids but to much of a good thing isn't always what they need.
To make the sport better is a tough topic. I think being from old school ( like most of us) I grew up with the technology as well as the speed as it progressed. I don't think todays bikes are that much better myself. The materials are more durable and a little lighter sure, but the geometry is basically the same.
First of all, first time racers should TRY to win, but should not EXPECT to win. They need to work at it. When I first started racing on my schwinn predator cromo, it was pretty heavy for the time (1982). That was my only race as a beginner. Throughout my racing career, I never had the lightest bike, but still did very well in my classes.
If a kid loves BMX, they'll enjoy TRYING and RIDING ON THE TRACK. If they progress, get them a better bike. If they are ready to quit after the first race because they got spanked, then you need to work on your kid's sportsmanship.
If a kid loves BMX, they'll enjoy TRYING and RIDING ON THE TRACK. If they progress, get them a better bike. If they are ready to quit after the first race because they got spanked, then you need to work on your kid's sportsmanship.
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