It may be a slight exaggeration to say that the 12X class today would beat the pros from BITD, but not much of one, but I have _no doubt_ that todays 14x Class at an A nat would beat the old school pros
The skills it takes to run a modern track at full speed are waaaaaayy beyond what the pros had BITD.
And, for those who havnt been on a modern "cookie cutter" track this may come as a surprise but the speeds that are reached at the end of a long pumping section are every bit as fast as your top speed pedaling down that flat straight, differance being, with the new tracks you have to have the bike handling skills to match your speed. Instead of leaning back into a power wheelie, your pulling up for the next jump to set up for the manual after it.
If the old bikes were better, we'd still be riding them. and, if the old tracks were better, they'd still be building them that way.
the comment was made earlier that the UCI/supercross style tracks were just too far over the heads of most of todays kids, but riding an old school track is not going to get our kids any closer to being ready for "world class" competition, and those supercross style tracks are the future.
Full Version: Would you race again if they built 80s style tracks?
I want to make onething clear. I wasn't hindering todays riders as I'm one of them. I guess to make a fare comparison I would have to ask one of the pro's from BITD that race now.. I bet they say the speeds were greater BITD....To me, this isn't because our todays great riders are slow, but as I said todays tracks have more hurdle to get over. Either way its all good.
i race now too and dislike the supercross style tracks of today hence this thread
oh, and jumps and berms are of course ok by me but "flow" is the issue. today's tracks look like a big city skyline to me, and I am looking for the rolling, flowing hills of a the pasture land. I guess it helps that I grew up in the ever-rolling massive corn fields of iowa.
Okay who remembers racing after rain in mud? Does that still happen today? I don't know? It's been at least 15+yrs since I've been to the track, but I remember racing in mud!
I felt that new tracks were too much myself last summer. I then began to race again at the end of June and now I enjoy them. I am terrified of breaking something or going down in a paved berm, but on the other hand, the racing technique has changed along with the tracks. I couldn't imagine racing an old school track again now. Ever think of how many times a guy went down BITD going into the turns? Imagine that now at 30 plus... I think overall I'm less likely to crash now than I was back ini the 80's. I also wear ALL the safetly gear these days.
We can compare pro speed pretty easy. Didn't BMX Plus way back do some kind of competition with the pro's like bunny hop and short sprint going straight and one that was a slalom? A long jump off a wooden ramp? Somebody dig up some of those old mags, duplicate all the test and get a few of todays pro to give it a shot. Then compare results. Didn't BMX Action do a high tech test on the pro's for leg strength and how well they process Oxygen. Why not do it again with todays pros and compare results.
Changstar
Changstar
MY POINT was that TODAYS KID IS BETTER because they don't to deal with the SHIOT that we did BITD and the learning curve is less.....EFFFFF!!!!
But you must be on CRACK to think a 12x could hang with the PRO"S from BITD......jjjjeeeeessssshhhhhh...
Like Stu, GH, Clinton, Leary, Patterson, Davidow, Sewell, Clark, Veight, Rupes, OM etc etc etc...had no effing skill and couldn't handle a todays track....give me an effinngg break!!!!
To answer your question, I probably watched Stu race about 12 moto's in person...
So...you would probably also tell me that that same 12x could beat Eric Rupe today??? whatever
Yeah, ever seen a rubber band start?? Todays kids don't have that skill....How about the 8 postion on a wooden gate that flexed so much that you could probably snap right over it like it wasn't there..or it would pop back up as you were trying to start over it or do you go around the mud hole or go through the center or the skill to avoid the sugar sand in the 1, 2 and 7 and 8 lanes or how you were going to fit 8 guys of the first moto of 4 in 16 and over expert into a turn that would hold 4 on the regular weekend race or how do you get over the 2- 4' wall jumps that they put in the night before at the Safety harbour track that your sprinting at??? straight up straight down, how are you going to start with 1 foot on the ground, how about the 2 and half minute race at Tampa track with the 15 flat slippery when not wet turns.....ALL SKILLS that todays kids don't have and don't have to learn BeCause the tracks are COOKIE CUTTER......
I wasn't bashing todays kids or how good they are or that all todays tracks are bad what I was trying to say was that the tracks could have a little variety to them....
But you must be on CRACK to think a 12x could hang with the PRO"S from BITD......jjjjeeeeessssshhhhhh...
Like Stu, GH, Clinton, Leary, Patterson, Davidow, Sewell, Clark, Veight, Rupes, OM etc etc etc...had no effing skill and couldn't handle a todays track....give me an effinngg break!!!!
To answer your question, I probably watched Stu race about 12 moto's in person...
So...you would probably also tell me that that same 12x could beat Eric Rupe today??? whatever
Yeah, ever seen a rubber band start?? Todays kids don't have that skill....How about the 8 postion on a wooden gate that flexed so much that you could probably snap right over it like it wasn't there..or it would pop back up as you were trying to start over it or do you go around the mud hole or go through the center or the skill to avoid the sugar sand in the 1, 2 and 7 and 8 lanes or how you were going to fit 8 guys of the first moto of 4 in 16 and over expert into a turn that would hold 4 on the regular weekend race or how do you get over the 2- 4' wall jumps that they put in the night before at the Safety harbour track that your sprinting at??? straight up straight down, how are you going to start with 1 foot on the ground, how about the 2 and half minute race at Tampa track with the 15 flat slippery when not wet turns.....ALL SKILLS that todays kids don't have and don't have to learn BeCause the tracks are COOKIE CUTTER......
I wasn't bashing todays kids or how good they are or that all todays tracks are bad what I was trying to say was that the tracks could have a little variety to them....
quote:And JOHN JOHNSON will be turning it up to 11.
I say we make gates for 10 riders, that in itself will change things up and more fun to race and more fun to watch.
quote:Ted, how many years did Shorewood run the Frostbite 500? I know I raced one of those. Outdoor BMX in Minnesota in January, I think. Good times.
I remember the old days when we used to race in three feet of snow at Rancho and Corona.
Florida Vaughn,
Having just come back into the sport in the past year I can tell you once you get on a bike again in 06 and ride a new school track you will be changing your tune. What looks "Cookie Cutter" is in fact not at all. The tracks of today are very hard but a lot of fun. I believe we reach much faster speeds with the ability to get back side so much better and pump through sections that were non-existant BITD.
Seriously, instead of getting upset give yourself atleast a year and come back and visit this thread in 07.
I believe that Ken is correct the kids at 12 years old today have amazing skill. Take a look at ISTV. No disrespect at all to you intended. I've enjoyed the banter back and forth on this thread and will find it interesting when you have ran the new school tracks for a full year.
Having just come back into the sport in the past year I can tell you once you get on a bike again in 06 and ride a new school track you will be changing your tune. What looks "Cookie Cutter" is in fact not at all. The tracks of today are very hard but a lot of fun. I believe we reach much faster speeds with the ability to get back side so much better and pump through sections that were non-existant BITD.
Seriously, instead of getting upset give yourself atleast a year and come back and visit this thread in 07.
I believe that Ken is correct the kids at 12 years old today have amazing skill. Take a look at ISTV. No disrespect at all to you intended. I've enjoyed the banter back and forth on this thread and will find it interesting when you have ran the new school tracks for a full year.
by the way, I forgot to add that I'm pretty darn sure that Ken has seen a rubber band start. He's about as old school as they get riding the new tracks of today and doing very well at it.
My 2 cents
I dont like the tracks of today. I started racing again in 02 after 21 years away. I was having loads of fun and became involved with our new local track. 03 was great, raced all the time went to a few big races. Really looking forward to 04, Had a rough Silver Dollar Nat. went down a couple times. Went to the season opner at Carson City(My wife said stay home today) and BAM!!! Down HARD, Broken right clavicle(12weeks off ) sugery a plate and 8 screws (still hurts).
Still wanted to race so first race back had a 2nd and a 1st in a total points race , was in the lead of 3rd moto and BAM! down hard on left hip...huge hematoma had to have fluid drained.
Wife said enough. Have only rode a few times since. I think the tracks could be toned down some. The best riders sre still going to do well. For the skill level of the rider base we have our track should be more tame, maybe next year if we have a track.
Thanks
:beerchug
CHEERS
I dont like the tracks of today. I started racing again in 02 after 21 years away. I was having loads of fun and became involved with our new local track. 03 was great, raced all the time went to a few big races. Really looking forward to 04, Had a rough Silver Dollar Nat. went down a couple times. Went to the season opner at Carson City(My wife said stay home today) and BAM!!! Down HARD, Broken right clavicle(12weeks off ) sugery a plate and 8 screws (still hurts).
Still wanted to race so first race back had a 2nd and a 1st in a total points race , was in the lead of 3rd moto and BAM! down hard on left hip...huge hematoma had to have fluid drained.
Wife said enough. Have only rode a few times since. I think the tracks could be toned down some. The best riders sre still going to do well. For the skill level of the rider base we have our track should be more tame, maybe next year if we have a track.
Thanks
:beerchug
CHEERS
Mr Reilley!...As much as I laughed at your story, I am going to have to call you on the carpet here! You used to race in the Snow? What a coincidence! So did we! Ours was called the "Frostbite 500" here!
This is a study in humility! Why am I wearing my Mother's pastel yellow jacket you ask? Because during practice I wanted to know exactly how many feathers were really in a down jacket. So I decided that the really effective way to open it up and count the feathers was to get a running start and open up my down jacket on the 18 degrees F, frozen clay. Unfortunately, the wind made me lose count at 45,368 feathers, and sadly I still do not know the answer to that question for you.
If you look closely you can see an Ashtabula, and he moved into a real bike shortly thereafter. Anyone that can hang that tough with a pie plate, a duck bill, and an Ashtabula, with metal mags, was ready for a real bike!...lol.
This had to be December of 80, cuz in 81 and 82 I wore # 3.
How cold did you say it was in Corona during the winter snow races? I love a fellow tough guy that could rough it in the winter! Did you prefer the fogging goggles, or the watering raw eyes? I was a wussy, I went with the fogging goggles!..... I have to toss the BS flag on that one Mr Reilley, 5 yards for effort, 25 yard penalty for getting busted with BS!....lol
[ December 22, 2005, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
This is a study in humility! Why am I wearing my Mother's pastel yellow jacket you ask? Because during practice I wanted to know exactly how many feathers were really in a down jacket. So I decided that the really effective way to open it up and count the feathers was to get a running start and open up my down jacket on the 18 degrees F, frozen clay. Unfortunately, the wind made me lose count at 45,368 feathers, and sadly I still do not know the answer to that question for you.
If you look closely you can see an Ashtabula, and he moved into a real bike shortly thereafter. Anyone that can hang that tough with a pie plate, a duck bill, and an Ashtabula, with metal mags, was ready for a real bike!...lol.
This had to be December of 80, cuz in 81 and 82 I wore # 3.
How cold did you say it was in Corona during the winter snow races? I love a fellow tough guy that could rough it in the winter! Did you prefer the fogging goggles, or the watering raw eyes? I was a wussy, I went with the fogging goggles!..... I have to toss the BS flag on that one Mr Reilley, 5 yards for effort, 25 yard penalty for getting busted with BS!....lol
[ December 22, 2005, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
"Real men of genius"...."So here's to you"....
..."Mr wearing your Mom's Jacket, on a frozen BMX track in Minnesota"...lol
Or is it...."Mr Duckbill visor on an Ashtabula with metal mags racing in the frozen tundra!"...Sorry Markus.....lol
[ December 22, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
..."Mr wearing your Mom's Jacket, on a frozen BMX track in Minnesota"...lol
Or is it...."Mr Duckbill visor on an Ashtabula with metal mags racing in the frozen tundra!"...Sorry Markus.....lol
[ December 22, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
That looks like fun.
I would not only race again I would chase points again in my quest for a #1.
Unlike many threads I read, I never left the sport and was able to keep up with the changes over the years though I rode less and less.
But todays tracks when you crash (and we all crash), you end up crashing into a brick wall, err another jump.
Today i have tons of bills to pay and cant work with a broken anything. So a bad crash would cause my credit score to drop as well as losing possesions and maybe my job.
Unlike many threads I read, I never left the sport and was able to keep up with the changes over the years though I rode less and less.
But todays tracks when you crash (and we all crash), you end up crashing into a brick wall, err another jump.
Today i have tons of bills to pay and cant work with a broken anything. So a bad crash would cause my credit score to drop as well as losing possesions and maybe my job.
quote:Roger that!
But todays tracks when you crash (and we all crash), you end up crashing into a brick wall, err another jump.
....cant work with a broken anything. So a bad crash would....
In Iowa,we used to ride on frozen pond. They had these flat track motorcycle races on the pond, so we figured we would go out there and ride. A few guys took screws and screwed them thru the tires like studs. I never tried it. We would slip around and wipe out and skid, but never crashed thru.
quote:Welcome to the Midwest Reilley! You talked the talk, but we actually walked that walk!
I remember the old days when we used to race in three feet of snow at Rancho and Corona. We were so poor, we could not afford knobby tires so we had to use discarded barbwire and wrap it around our bald tires for traction.
PS, Sheet metal screws worked better than barbed wire....lol
...(after thinking about it, my Dad was soooo pi55ed that I used the whole box of 250 or 500 pop rivets, riveted from the inside they wont pop tires...fwiw..lol)
[ December 22, 2005, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
quote:Cause you have issues?
Why am I wearing my Mother's pastel yellow jacket you ask
You ain't tuff, we had to race Corona in three feet of snow UPHILL.
Dude, It was so cold that when you got to kiss the trophy girl, your lips got stuck to her and they had to get the EMTs to seperate us.
As a matter of fact at the 1975 Fosters' Freeze Nationals, it was so cold my mother actually told me that for the first time on her life, she didn't mind her beard.
[ December 22, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
quote:When you get your license and get on the track I invite you to go to Bethel CT and try their gate. It was the home of the Last Chance National last year. It would twist and turn then pop up and whack your rear wheel as you went over it.
How about the 8 postion on a wooden gate that flexed so much that you could probably snap right over it like it wasn't there..or it would pop back up as you were trying to start over it
I'd still like to know how todays tracks are "COOKIE CUTTER"? I traveled all over the country last year and not one track was the same as another. Heck the Long Island national had 5 corners and 6 straight aways.
When the Christmas Classic national track picks are posted up for next week check out the track layout. Multiple path straights, decision makers and berm jumps (jump over the berm to another corner and straight).
Yep, we never race in the rain or snow. Think of the children!!!
Yes, us nancy-poo racers do race in the rain, sleet or snow. We wear our little disco slippers at times and make the best of it. If we are lucky the track freezes so you do not sink in too deep. If not you make the best of it.
You people are killing me. I'm going to try one more time. TODAYS riders are BETTER because todays tracks are BETTER and the learning curve is much LESS (riders don't have to worry about the crap and can concentrate on the hard stuff like the jumps). I say cookie cutter because; todays tracks have SIMILAR (I've been to a few tracks, have seen pictures of quite a few like the pictures just above) starting gates, starting hills, first jumps, rythem sections, doubles, woops, straights (or lack there of) and are nicely groomed. Please read my whole post, because it all goes together. And thank God for tracks with some variety (I guess you all have found them). I'm out of two cents.
Have a Merry Christmas!!!
[ December 22, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Florida Vaughn ]
Have a Merry Christmas!!!
[ December 22, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Florida Vaughn ]
Speaking of fast tracks the old Orlando track had a staring hill of about 20 tall' and a first straight as long as the first 2 straights of my local track, we hardly carried any speed through the slight S curve between the 2 large pine tree's into the high banked first turn.........
Well enough about the track, how many of you would ride an old-school Yak?
And remember, in Russia, the track rides _you_
And remember, in Russia, the track rides _you_
I would ride an old school Yak only on a New school track, it would be way to dangerous on an Old school track to ride a Yak..
but you already know that Elvis....
but you already know that Elvis....
I remember racing Yaks in Corona and Rancho in 3 feet of snow.
My favorite was the Yak sidehack races tho.
I, for one, do not like the newer clip-in Yaks, they tend to slide off of the concrete berms.
[ December 22, 2005, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
My favorite was the Yak sidehack races tho.
I, for one, do not like the newer clip-in Yaks, they tend to slide off of the concrete berms.
[ December 22, 2005, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
The yaks in Iowa don't manual too well, but they speed jump real low. Is Bethel Ct. still there? I used to go there in 1987. It had this wicked downhill jump thing on the first straight.
Let's see some of the new school Yaks get this moto!!
[ December 22, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
[ December 22, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
holy crap! reilly is the man.... the man on the yak.
quote:I almost soiled myself.
I remember racing Yaks in Corona and Rancho in 3 feet of snow.
My favorite was the Yak sidehack races tho.
quote:But this: Brilliant!!! *raises glass*
Let's see some of the new school Yaks get this moto!!
between this
Im going to give my vote for post of the month to Reilley.
friggin awesome!
quote:and the Yak sidehack/fatty Yak flattie.
it was so cold my mother actually told me that for the first time on her life, she didn't mind her beard.
Im going to give my vote for post of the month to Reilley.
friggin awesome!
Once again Reilley, pure BS. Funny, yes, but you can't fool us.....You Californians need to get out more!
First of all, a real racing Yak would have a number plate!!!!!! Duh!
In the Midwest, Yaks are only allowed in the Novice class. Intermediates, must move into the Holstein class. The plates are regulation white background, black number, plates. Shown here was the famous Cow Pierates racing team, which used to chew up BUMS like the cud they were!
Experts in the Midwest are still allowed modifications within the mid-west ABA guidelines. As shown in this photo at the old Wright County race track. ...Where Wright was just Wrong.
Anybody want to go Yak tipping tonight?
[ December 22, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
First of all, a real racing Yak would have a number plate!!!!!! Duh!
In the Midwest, Yaks are only allowed in the Novice class. Intermediates, must move into the Holstein class. The plates are regulation white background, black number, plates. Shown here was the famous Cow Pierates racing team, which used to chew up BUMS like the cud they were!
Experts in the Midwest are still allowed modifications within the mid-west ABA guidelines. As shown in this photo at the old Wright County race track. ...Where Wright was just Wrong.
Anybody want to go Yak tipping tonight?
[ December 22, 2005, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]
quote:looks to me like one of them imported old school German racing Yaks, or did you miss the costom swastika neck number plate?
First of all, a real racing Yak would have a number plate!!!!!! Duh!
Im not sure what the number below it is (I dont read German) but if I had to guess Id say double infinity, its probably his overall German national number, 'cause theres probably not that many riders in his state.
[ December 22, 2005, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: RCain ]
This thread makes me want to yack. Or maybe that was the yak-fried rice I had for lunch.
I saw that swastica. Basically, that symbol turns up throughout time, way before the nazis. I have heard it compared to the symbol for the ying and the yang, the continuing life symbol. If you think about it, it's kind of a stick figure of a life symbol. Totally explains why it is on a yak.
I rode by McDonalds on the way home and had a Big Yak attak. All i wanted was a halfpipe and yak to yackup.
*****still shaking his head in total dismay****
wtf just happened here anyway!? lol
wtf just happened here anyway!? lol
...As I was saying, one time at the Corona Sno-cone Grandnationals, me and Mike Hardaway went against Scot Birdtrap and Jeff Udderback in the main of senior side-yaks and......
[ December 23, 2005, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
[ December 23, 2005, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]
How bout these Yaks?
I bet my son could ride that back hack yak.
He is a funny little monkey.
I bet my son could ride that back hack yak.
He is a funny little monkey.
Mr Ted Carl, you can't fool me. That is not a racing number on that cow, that is what you intend to do with that cow after a few drinks and soft music.
I have pondered this question for years now and would like to make give my two cents worth. Please be advised that the following is merely an opinion based on my personal experiences for the past 33 years of bmx.
1. BMX racing is a sport for kids. It always has been and always will be a sport designed for kids. Anyone other than that will always be considered an "old guy riding kids bikes". I think this is truly a sport who's lifecycle ends around age 15. Those who stay beyond that and their opinions should not be considered. (Give me a chance, hear me out before you start responding!)
2. Given that this is a kids sport, how fast the pros and older expert classes are/were is totally irrelelvant. Just for the conversation though, Eric Rupe is one of the remaining old school pros who still rides, lets line up those young experts and give them a shot!
3. Because we seek to grow our sports ridership, we must concentrate on our core customers (3-15 age group) and cater to them. Contemplate Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods as you look at our sport. Why didn't they make the goal 27 feet tall as the NBA got bigger? Why didn't they make the courses exceedingly harder as the pros of the 60's got better and better? The fact is, allowing the average person to play on a court (track, court, course, etc) that is identical to the pros is one element that causes growth in that sport. How many times have you been on the golf course and imagined that you were Jack Nicklaus hitting into the 18th green at the US Open?
Todays BMX Tracks are too hard for the average person. Today's BMX tracks do not encourage new ridership in my opinion. Too much whining and complaining is done by the top experts and pros when a track is deemed to be "easy". If you want to make a living at extreme sports, pick one out that isn't a little kids sport like BMX. That is the fundamental issue holding our sport back in my opinion.
If the tracks were more like the 80's tracks, I would race more, and so would more other people. Most of the people who answer these posts talk about themselves and their opinions. Consider the opinion of the new parent though when forming your opinion. Would you put your precious child into bmx the way it is today? Does our sport have an ease of entry for the new contestant? With ridership way way down, it is difficult for the new 13 novice to ever have a chance of having a good time because at our locals, they usually end up racing with a 15x, a 14 x and a 13 I and get humiliated. That is no way to grow a sport.
This is a great post, and has some of Reilley's best humor! It is also an important post with great merit for the future of our sport.
At this moment, I am considering building a bmx track near Austin, TX. IF I do it, it will be VERY EASY. When the older experts and pros ask me to modify the track purely for their enjoyment, I will respond with:
1. When they make the goal in basketball 28 feet tall to accomodate today's higher level of play, then I will modify the track. Today's 8 year old plays on the same court as Michael Jordan.
2. When they make Pebble Beach 11,000 yards long with 4 yard wide fairways and greens the size of trash can lids, then I will modify the track. Today's 8 year old plays on the same course that Tiger and Jack do. In fact, Golf has exploded and prospered because manufacturers have made the game EASIER TO PLAY with technology for the club, and the outstanding maintenance of today's courses. THE INDUSTRY MADE THE SPORT EASIER TO PLAY AND ITS GROWTH EXPLODED WORLDWIDE!
3. When the NFL makes the football field 357 yards long with extra hidden potholes to keep these pros on their feet....well, you know. Same with baseball. 90 feet between bases....6th grade or pro.
The difference between those sports and BMX? They are wildly successful, televised, and growing. BMX anguishes in the cellar, relegated to a mediocre existence, and controlled by people who do not understand who their market is. If you are a track director, I ask you some very important questions: Who is your market? Who is your track built for? Who is your track designed to attract? When you answer, please add to your answer your average moto count last year. I do not mean that in a negative way, it is just a relevant part of the study.
I believe that Bob O'Gorman would still be the National # 1 Cruiser rider regardless of our nation's track designs. I also believe that he would be in TV commercials had our sport developed in the proper way. It is hard to grow a sport when the grandstands are filled only with racers, not fans.
For those that need the extreme and gnarly: Try downhill mountain biking and 4 Cross. . BMX grew up a long time ago and morphed into that. Everything RAD that you seek is right there. That is where you belong. Leave BMX to the kids, they will thank you for it!
Cash Matthews
BMX Racing since 1972!
[ December 25, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Cash Matthews ]
1. BMX racing is a sport for kids. It always has been and always will be a sport designed for kids. Anyone other than that will always be considered an "old guy riding kids bikes". I think this is truly a sport who's lifecycle ends around age 15. Those who stay beyond that and their opinions should not be considered. (Give me a chance, hear me out before you start responding!)
2. Given that this is a kids sport, how fast the pros and older expert classes are/were is totally irrelelvant. Just for the conversation though, Eric Rupe is one of the remaining old school pros who still rides, lets line up those young experts and give them a shot!
3. Because we seek to grow our sports ridership, we must concentrate on our core customers (3-15 age group) and cater to them. Contemplate Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods as you look at our sport. Why didn't they make the goal 27 feet tall as the NBA got bigger? Why didn't they make the courses exceedingly harder as the pros of the 60's got better and better? The fact is, allowing the average person to play on a court (track, court, course, etc) that is identical to the pros is one element that causes growth in that sport. How many times have you been on the golf course and imagined that you were Jack Nicklaus hitting into the 18th green at the US Open?
Todays BMX Tracks are too hard for the average person. Today's BMX tracks do not encourage new ridership in my opinion. Too much whining and complaining is done by the top experts and pros when a track is deemed to be "easy". If you want to make a living at extreme sports, pick one out that isn't a little kids sport like BMX. That is the fundamental issue holding our sport back in my opinion.
If the tracks were more like the 80's tracks, I would race more, and so would more other people. Most of the people who answer these posts talk about themselves and their opinions. Consider the opinion of the new parent though when forming your opinion. Would you put your precious child into bmx the way it is today? Does our sport have an ease of entry for the new contestant? With ridership way way down, it is difficult for the new 13 novice to ever have a chance of having a good time because at our locals, they usually end up racing with a 15x, a 14 x and a 13 I and get humiliated. That is no way to grow a sport.
This is a great post, and has some of Reilley's best humor! It is also an important post with great merit for the future of our sport.
At this moment, I am considering building a bmx track near Austin, TX. IF I do it, it will be VERY EASY. When the older experts and pros ask me to modify the track purely for their enjoyment, I will respond with:
1. When they make the goal in basketball 28 feet tall to accomodate today's higher level of play, then I will modify the track. Today's 8 year old plays on the same court as Michael Jordan.
2. When they make Pebble Beach 11,000 yards long with 4 yard wide fairways and greens the size of trash can lids, then I will modify the track. Today's 8 year old plays on the same course that Tiger and Jack do. In fact, Golf has exploded and prospered because manufacturers have made the game EASIER TO PLAY with technology for the club, and the outstanding maintenance of today's courses. THE INDUSTRY MADE THE SPORT EASIER TO PLAY AND ITS GROWTH EXPLODED WORLDWIDE!
3. When the NFL makes the football field 357 yards long with extra hidden potholes to keep these pros on their feet....well, you know. Same with baseball. 90 feet between bases....6th grade or pro.
The difference between those sports and BMX? They are wildly successful, televised, and growing. BMX anguishes in the cellar, relegated to a mediocre existence, and controlled by people who do not understand who their market is. If you are a track director, I ask you some very important questions: Who is your market? Who is your track built for? Who is your track designed to attract? When you answer, please add to your answer your average moto count last year. I do not mean that in a negative way, it is just a relevant part of the study.
I believe that Bob O'Gorman would still be the National # 1 Cruiser rider regardless of our nation's track designs. I also believe that he would be in TV commercials had our sport developed in the proper way. It is hard to grow a sport when the grandstands are filled only with racers, not fans.
For those that need the extreme and gnarly: Try downhill mountain biking and 4 Cross. . BMX grew up a long time ago and morphed into that. Everything RAD that you seek is right there. That is where you belong. Leave BMX to the kids, they will thank you for it!
Cash Matthews
BMX Racing since 1972!
[ December 25, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Cash Matthews ]
Cash you are the man!!! What about having one or two straights split into expert and nov/int sectoins? Best of both worlds cause you will have something for new riders and the experts won't get bored. I don't know what we can do to affect the national race tracks so for our local experts we need something to help them prepare for it. For TV though I think tracks have to have some excitement, like Supercross. When Joe Average sees Supercross on TV or at the stadium, he knows he is watching the worlds best on a track built to challenge them. This does not stop them from buying a bike and hitting up some local racing. But of course the local track is not what they see on TV, and that is good or else you will scare away everyone. Thats why I think national races should not include Novice racers, a novice national champion is d%mb. Locals should cater to Joe Novice, and nationals should showcase the very best, and that's what I think people watching on TV want. There is no first time Golfers show.
Changstar
Changstar
Jason:
This piece of land I am looking at has the option for a dual track, just as you have suggeted. However, if I ever give in to the desire for a more radical track, I might go a bit overboard and remake HELLTRACK! Why not have a 40 foot double over a water hazard??? And the starting hill would be made of wood, be 75 feet high, and the lanes would be 2 x 6 boards with nothing on either side!!! Talk about moving over! (I am just being silly there)
Thanks for the comments.
This piece of land I am looking at has the option for a dual track, just as you have suggeted. However, if I ever give in to the desire for a more radical track, I might go a bit overboard and remake HELLTRACK! Why not have a 40 foot double over a water hazard??? And the starting hill would be made of wood, be 75 feet high, and the lanes would be 2 x 6 boards with nothing on either side!!! Talk about moving over! (I am just being silly there)
Thanks for the comments.
quote:and sharks....
Why not have a 40 foot double over a water hazard???
Cash...whew...that was a great post and I am bringing it to our next state meeting, when I once again try to explain why the 20', 6' tall doubles they installed at the track are not inducive to bringing more riders in. I agree with many of the comments (well except for the little kid sport thing, lol) you made, very well thought out.
I'd have to agree with Cash on a number of those comments. I do agree 100% on the track layout and obsticals. The jumps are god like for a kid starting out and its gotta be kinda intimidating and for the parents. Some tracks have a "pro" section which i think is cool, but maybe they should have a track for younger riders , then there track section ends and the it flows in to the rest of track for older kids and guys..
As far as the sport being a kids sport, there again I agree but to a point. I think you forget we as the first GEN BMXers invented this sport, and for some it was REALLY hard to walk away from. Others knew it wasn't a career thing and the likes of Eric R, Greg H. and a few others maybe its been worth it for them to $tay in it? I don't know?
The big question: do pro's today make big cash? Will the Bubba's of today stay in it like Greg and Eric?
I love this sport alot, and would love for it to keep growing. Whats really cool though is to see riders from our day still able to rock out. I did well when I came back but didn't feel it was my thang.. Most of all I don't wanna go down, hurt myself and for what a trophy or biker bucks? I'll stick to auto-x and road racing... LOL!
Brad
As far as the sport being a kids sport, there again I agree but to a point. I think you forget we as the first GEN BMXers invented this sport, and for some it was REALLY hard to walk away from. Others knew it wasn't a career thing and the likes of Eric R, Greg H. and a few others maybe its been worth it for them to $tay in it? I don't know?
The big question: do pro's today make big cash? Will the Bubba's of today stay in it like Greg and Eric?
I love this sport alot, and would love for it to keep growing. Whats really cool though is to see riders from our day still able to rock out. I did well when I came back but didn't feel it was my thang.. Most of all I don't wanna go down, hurt myself and for what a trophy or biker bucks? I'll stick to auto-x and road racing... LOL!
Brad
I'd be willing to put up the number of kids I recruited in the past year against anyone's numbers in this thread. I have done this while representing a track with national-sized obstacles. As such I feel qualfied to make the following statement: The size of the obstacles is not a factor, period. We have four-year-old kids riding the thing. You got to a national and will see kids younger than that in the novice class. You're worrying about stuff that doesn't matter. (I'm prepared to go at length on this point, including case studies against lesser tracks, but will leave this silliness alone for the moment.)
Y'all would be well served to look up "Cargo Cult."
I applaud my friend Cash's efforts to put out a track that meets his vision for the sport (making him the rarest of VBMX theorists). I charge that any affect it will have on BMX membership will have a lot more to do with recruiting than pitch of the turn.
Cargo Cult on Wikipedia
Y'all would be well served to look up "Cargo Cult."
I applaud my friend Cash's efforts to put out a track that meets his vision for the sport (making him the rarest of VBMX theorists). I charge that any affect it will have on BMX membership will have a lot more to do with recruiting than pitch of the turn.
Cargo Cult on Wikipedia
Today's pros ,as a group ,do not make big cash from BMX racing. In fact, it is my opinion that they are really irrelevant to the issue of growing bmx in any meaningful way at this point. There are a select few who make a good living, but most of the pros racing today make a lot less than you realize.
Elvis is right, just cutting the jumps down won't mean anything without a large group of people with a similar vision putting their hands to the plow and doing the hard work. There are many here doing that work.
More simply put, promotion of the sport on a local basis will have more impact on rider count than any single thing. It isn't necessarily the ABA or NBL's job to promote your local scene. BMX tracks, to me, are a business. And as a business, it is up to the track operator to find out who his market is. Then, you can advertise or recruit from that market. Kids don't seem to enter our sport at the age of 15 and beyond, so in my opinion, we need to recruit them from the age of 6 on.
True, while we do have four year old kids racing, we don't have a full rack of them. We certainly don't have 4N, 4I, and 4X, so the 4 year olds are mostly a moot point.
This question began as a lookback to the 80's as the golden era for bmx racing. Back then, it was everywhere and easy to get into. Today, the tracks are a bit more complicated, and if you truly want to compete, you must clip in. So there, hard tracks and clips ruined the sport. I forgot, do we still hate aluminam frames and carbon forks?
Cash Matthews
BMX Anthropologist
[ December 25, 2005, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Cash Matthews ]
Elvis is right, just cutting the jumps down won't mean anything without a large group of people with a similar vision putting their hands to the plow and doing the hard work. There are many here doing that work.
More simply put, promotion of the sport on a local basis will have more impact on rider count than any single thing. It isn't necessarily the ABA or NBL's job to promote your local scene. BMX tracks, to me, are a business. And as a business, it is up to the track operator to find out who his market is. Then, you can advertise or recruit from that market. Kids don't seem to enter our sport at the age of 15 and beyond, so in my opinion, we need to recruit them from the age of 6 on.
True, while we do have four year old kids racing, we don't have a full rack of them. We certainly don't have 4N, 4I, and 4X, so the 4 year olds are mostly a moot point.
This question began as a lookback to the 80's as the golden era for bmx racing. Back then, it was everywhere and easy to get into. Today, the tracks are a bit more complicated, and if you truly want to compete, you must clip in. So there, hard tracks and clips ruined the sport. I forgot, do we still hate aluminam frames and carbon forks?
Cash Matthews
BMX Anthropologist
[ December 25, 2005, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Cash Matthews ]
"OOOhhhh...if they would just make the tracks the way they used to be."
"Ha! It's not that the tracks are too hard. It's because you won't let it snow in Southtown, you hotdog!"
[ December 26, 2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: John_N ]
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