So, since it is winter here in some parts of the country, and we have nothing better to do but TALK about Old School Tracks...

Explain to me why a few of you seem to think I/We could not get an ABA sanction for an 80's style track?

I would like to lay out a plan this winter, If we decide that we want to get the old 80's track here back up and running...

I don't see why they wouldn't sanction a track that was built and sanctioned in the early 80's, if it was spruced up and nice....
T

Hey Ted, Here's an idea, if each of us OS guys infiltrated our existing local programs, we could slowly convert all of those tracks back to 80's style tracks! Who knows, maybe the mags would come out and start covering the races again - from cover to cover!

[ December 19, 2005, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Jim Stinson ]

Clearly it is an evolution that takes place. BMX Was, and still is, a common denominator in Motocross, Supercross, Snow Cross, and The X-games...

I think the crazyness motif is long from over. But there are far fewer people that can actually go to the X games level in any of the above.

I know that there are kids from dawn to dusk riding at the old unsanctioned track near me. They love it. Add some bigger berms and clean up the track, and why wouldn't it go crazy with kids?

The new tracks have Steel fences next to the jumps, and light poles, and concrete, and even asphalt. Why wouldn't the ABA santion something saner and safer?

I dont think the existing tracks would go for it. But I think the key would be the numbers of kids participating. If more people are willing to ride a track, and bring their kid to the track to ride on, then the popularity grows again. And if people start saying that track X is their favorite track, and it has an VBMX motif, then it will shift that direction.

That Red Bull stuff is WICKED and I love it. But it leaves most kids far behind, and out in the cold. So how can it maintain or grow?

I still wouldnt build a VBMX track for myself to race. Because for me, it is all about the next generation now....But anyone considering building a VBMX track layout should be commended and encouraged. I think variety is good, and strength in large numbers is good. I see a lack of variety, and a lack of large numbers now, so how could it hurt to try???

ted carl, you still got an old track there that was never torn down? cool, we need pics!! here is why i was told the aba would not sanction it, by a local track operator. i want a wood gate with no ram, they said they would not go for that. i want no berms. i want small jumps. i want two jumps on the whole track. basically i want no electricity out in a field . this track operator who has lights and a new fangled track and all, tells me the aba would not go for it because it's not compatible, and people want to travel from track to track and expect similar emenities wherever they go. in other words, they would show up at my joke of a track and get mad and leave and never return. you know what i say to them... GO, take a hike! but he says you got to meet certain requirements before the aba awards you a sanction. i wish the aba would confirm this, i may write to B.A. or get Shannon or Bill C. on here. You see, i have a big field in mind , two of them actually, and electricity is just no where around there. now that's old school!! way the heck out in the country with no electricity or water. one field has a country store across the street, so there's the concessions!! oh yeah, and he says you have to have announcing also.

It is not an easy track to photograph the whole thing. Especially with a camera phone. My son (the smaller dude) is on the first straight, first jump, and on the second straight. The other kid is on the third straight....







Quick drawing, and you have to roatate it 90 degrees CC for it to make sense....But I think it might be pretty fun to salvage it, and sanction it!...Kids can ride it all day, any day as it sits now...Built in 83??? Shawn?

T

[ December 20, 2005, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Ted Carl ]

that is so cool. why did it never get bulldozed???

was it ever a sanctioned track or always a practice track? that's what i'm talking bout. but they say nobody would ride a lame track like that, but look at all those kids out there having a good time, proof that you do not have to have 6 foot tall doubles to have fun.

Didn't a lot of old school tracks occaisionally run generators or god forbid, a bullhorn. Ted, are you still fleshing out ideas for Maple Plain? Since it's still standing, that might be a good point to bring up before a sanctioning body. If SS still has the keys after all these years, that's another good point. I'd love to see you become a TO and follow in the footsteps of your dad. Maple Plain was the most modern of the ABA tracks we had back then. Or maybe it was just that it was the newest. Do you have to have a computer for lane selections in the motos, or is drawing cards OK? I really don't see why a sanctioning body would not want to see some variety in tracks. I've read about the mechanized gates with their lights and their audio. And how easy it is to memorize the cadence of it. All in all I've always hated the idea of cookie cutters, and it sounds like thst's how the BMX racing sport has evolved. If you look at the Tour de France, they change the course every year. Yes, I know every track is different. I don't think it would hurt the sport to have a few OS tracks mixed in. Heck, I was never a great racer, but I raced and had fun. I couldn't afford to race every weekend, so I picked the tracks to race at that I liked the best. At that time, there were essentially 4 ABA tracks to race at. Brooklyn Park, Eden Prarrie, Shorewood, and Richfield. Owatonna did Wednesday night races, but it was too far out and mostly good for nothing but the points chasers. As far as I remember, those tracks never competed against each other and it worked out well enough that you could race every weekend if you wanted to. Oh Carp, Now I'm rambling about entire systems when it's just one track that needs to be considered. (In each area, of course.)

BTW, I have never raced or rode a New School track with asphalt berms, starting hills and jump parts. I'm just being opionated and think that it's just wrong to incorporate that into a track, unless it was part of the land formation before the track was built.

I'm going to shut up and think of the next Frostbite 500!

Well that is Maple Plain pictured here. The fire department is next door, and we could clear out a couple of trucks for a VBMX gathering for starters. In case of Rain to protect the goods. A good place to ride....

And I agree. I NEVER "Watched The Lights". I timed it. Nothing wrong with "Pedals Set". And a bull horn for that matter!

And for a new track here....

Where do you pedal again? I forget....Oh yeah, only in the berms...But that is when you are supposed to have your foot hanging over the tires....I fogot, you are cliped in now and you never need to take a foot off....lol

It is different, that much is for sure!....

HJAR! I ranted long enough that I didn't see your pics. I'm pretty sure it was built in '83. Y'know what I really like? The trees between the track sections. Call me a tree hugger, but I like it. There's no need to take out all the trees on the lot. The jumps seemed a lot bigger when i was 15.

Actually, I think I'm more likely to spend my $ on the Southdale YMCA's skatepark than racing. It's only 25 miles closer to home. Aye, there's the rub and what ultimately led to my not racing anymore. It was all so far away. I lived in Golden Valley, so all the tracks were more or less equidistant from home. 20 miles was 2 hours with Big Gulp breaks included in that. Then we met some dirt jumpers/freesylers in St. Louis Park and skaters with tiny halfpipes in SoMpls.

Besides, if I showed up to a race, would I be laughed outta the starting gate for riding a '97 Gary Fisher Lush Rush? I'd like to see a 29" SS class on a BMX track. Or if wheel size is not restricted 29 vs. 26. vs 24. The world of bikes has exploded. There's so many things that can be done. Vintage MTB races are held with over 20 year old bikes as a class. Tinker Juarez, skatepark pioneer, is a multiple 24 hour MTB race champion. Aye, the rub again. They don't really make 20" road bikes unless they're recumbents.

I think the sport is at a crossroads again. Supercross BMX is in the olympics, that's good for exposure, but where does that leave the older folks and their offspring. How can we introduce our offspring to the sport if the tracks are too technical ( ) for us to ride? Of course, compared to the early '80s, there's great Racers, Street riders, Dirt Jumpers, Ramp Riders and Flatlanders That have rarely experienced the other disciples of BMX. Call me what you will, but everything I've ever learned on a BMX bike has turned me into an old guy with a lot of bikes. The more people I can get riding a bike regularly, the better.

[/where the hell did that come from] OK, i know, but I'll just make something up. Having more "'80s tracks" would get more old guys and their offspring racing. Maybe more fun races; father and offspring sidehack with daddy as the monkey. Gimmicks, I know, but it's all about the fun. I think that's what bummed me out about racing... The chasing of points. .... I was happy racing my firends, and whoever was best on the track that day had braggin' rights.

So I don't necessarily think that an OS track needs to be sanctioned. That's coming from a rider with # 642 mn-1. I'm sure being sanctioned gives you an insurance break. That's a big thing. Hmmm. there is some sort of loophole in Hennipen County's laws. If I remember right.

Maybe I should look in my own backyard and see wh at looks good. Bloomington has a lot of land. It might work.

just watched jox jag dvd of richfield mn taft park kind of looked like that a little. delong and heath out of iowa were tearing it up.

ok, i answered my own question about the gate. this is from the aba website, pdf file on getting a track started. out of 25 or so pages, there were very few requiremnts. only general suggestions or genral outlines. here is the gate requirement, from the aba : "An 8 man gate is a requirement for sanctioning in the ABA. This gate can range from a simple, hand operated wooden gate, to a completely electronic, pneumatic up and down affair with starting lights." I'm guessing this paragraph was written in the 1980's and never changed. good!

Nice photo's Ted... That big track above is in St. Michael, MN where I live. Its really fast and very busy (as you can see). The ABA actually built that track Summer of 2002 after they close the other National track just to the right of that photo. Anyone here for the 2003 National? Can anyone tell me why they don't have it there anymore? its a perfect track.. I don't get it!

The other track is a perfect example of one of the only existing old school tracks around. I practice and goof around there quite a bit as the St. michael track is fenced off... We have snow mobiles here in Minne and Ted would be there 24/7 if it wasn't fenced off.. right Ted? LOL!!!!

Steef, I noticed you said you've never really raced at a new school track. If you get bored this Winter, run out to the Lino Lake indoor dirt track. Its pretty cool. Its really fast for the first to turns and the last straight is a coaster over the 10 thousand woops.. ohh and if you fall its like F'n concrete. Its really compacted. I usually race in January -March before the auto x season gets underway.

I am a TO and see no reason why ABA would not grant you sanctioning. The ABA requirements are very liberal, and mostly in place for safety. Nothing says you have to have berms, or tall jumps, or any certain amount of jumps. I too do not like the cookie cutter tracks. I am opening a new track next year and plan to have split sections. But instead of having a pro/am split. I am going to try a old school/new school split. What do you guys think of that? I even got some input from Mighty Stu. I think tracks should fulfil the needs of the local racers, if it is best to be simple with less jumps then thats fine. If you have many chasing NAG points and trying to compete on the national level then your track needs to be more like what you will find at the nationals. But do what is best for the riders in your area.

Changstar

changstar, the new school old school idea is indeed a good one. riders in my area: very fast and clipped in. let's just say we have fast riders that make the terrible ten, the top nag ten, district number one, roc one, grands champs, so on. that's why we figured they would hate my ideas. but, they have other tracks they can go to. mine would be for old fat dudes and new squirrels.

I think a tunnel would be cool, then have it cross over it like a bridge. cool huh? Like the Thomas the Train figure eight set . LOL!

Pat ,
Why no berms?
The track that i often raced at in the '70s had berms.
It just didn't have them on all of the turns.
If you want to get it sancioned, you will need to have a good starting gate.
Otherwise it's just a good old-fashioned dirt trail/practice track.

Seems like the bmx industry has changed with the Supercross track designs...mainly beefier and heavier 40+ pound bikes are needed to handle it. I wonder if a 25-30 pound vintage bike would still have the lighter weight advantage on an old track design built with speed jumps and table tops..could you smoke a new school bike on the same gate...food for thought.

I'm not sure where you are getting 40+ pound bikes. Our new school race bikes are in the low 20 pound range. Are you looking at the dirt jumping bikes or something?

no berms, that's just a rule. { because I don't want to get all that dirt, wood jumps, too.} i raced on plenty of tracks with no berms. { it's a rule so that it encourages no clips} no berms, wood jumps, wood gate, hand operated. just a trail is correct, sir.

just a wide trail, though, so multiple people can enter a turn with room to put a foot down

There are so many things in this thread that are just plain laughable.

Among the most amusing must be:

"today's tracks are slower"

No kids, today's tracks are certainly not slower.

True, there are no Corona, Saddleback, etc., gnarly downhill tracks for AMs to race (as there are the Dew Sports gnarly downhill tracks for the AA Pros) these days.

Today's tracks are faster, smoother, and require a decent balance of bike handling skill, speed, talent and balls. The majority of the guys that have been commenting on this thread haven't picked up a race bike in 15 years and they sure as hell haven't been gating up with any of us. (Pat, I don't count you in with these guys as I know you gate up with us on a regular basis)

I'll be 40 in a few weeks. I was fast as a kid with my share of decent national finishes but I guarantee that the 2005-2006 version of me can kick the crap out of the 1982 version of me. Hell, show up at some of these nationals and watch the 9x class. These guys have tons of talent and speed and they are just nine.

Most modern day national caliber 12 Experts could hang with the 1979 Pro class.

We always say, "the older you get, the faster you were as a kid." The fact is, it isn't really as you remember it. It never really was. Sure, at 15 you thought you were flying on that one-jump-per-straightaway track. But when you look at old footage of us racing at 15, we really weren't going that fast.

My suggestion for those of you that want to "take over our current local tracks and turn them back into fun tracks." How about get your asses off of the armchair and get out there anyway. If you are so worried about this sport then why are you not out there competing in it? Hell, as kids we would make fun of the 26 & Over Cruiser class. Now there are five classes (yes, five full cruiser classes) over the 26-30 Class.

Our little sport has evolved for the better. We are not on mild steel Sting Rays anymore. We are not on 40 pound bikes anymore (contrary to some opinions in this thread). We race on state of the art precision machines on well groomed tracks at speeds that the 1970s and 1980s couldn't even comprehend (save for the Corona type tracks).

I have no desire to see Indy 500 drivers go back to racing wooden cars with leather helmets.

I was talking about making an old school type track that is seperate from my local track, not taking over my local track, but i'm sure you guys got that, so that we could have two types of racing, not getting rid of one type or going backwards in time, really. The question here is would the aba sanction a lame outdated primitive track

I think todays BMXers would gain alot of value out of racing on a tracks that had a good mix of Old School and New School attributes and were not all cookie cutter copies (maybe one of the reasons for the low moto counts). Variety is the spice of life....and definately do away with those clips.....

and Ken there is no way a 12x could keep up with OS pros... They didn't call him Stompin Stu for nothin..

The 12 X is better nowadays because he has a precision bike from the start and rides on cookie cutter tracks that are very similar (less skills to master), that keep up the speed so that power doesn't mean didley....

with that said; I will return to racing BMX in 2006 after a 25 year layoff.....after I do that I will give my other 2 cents...

Actually, I was refering to "Intentional Coasting Races", or "No Pedal Races". Similar to the old "Sit down" race you agreed to with your buddies before the gate drops....

My point being, It would be imposible to "not pedal" and make it around an old school track. Now they do it all the time for kicks.

As I said, we were "Pedal Racers", not "Pumping" racers. A track that you could not pump your way around would be refreshing to watch, but would it be to the kids, or to us old guys in the older classes to actually race again.....That is the question.

Lead,

Once you have mastered a verticle turn...the next one is the same....you don't have to worry about slipping, sliding, putting a foot down, off camber, flat or slow.....= less skills to master or maybe a better thing say is less obstacles

Same thing goes for starts. Starts are virtually the same also....similar starting gates, hills and cadances....

[ December 21, 2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Florida Vaughn ]

Damn it!!! Bring back rubber band starts or else I am taking a hostage!!!

Starts and turns are the easiest part of the sport. Its what you do between them that matters.

I don't know how you can not worry about slipping, sliding or putting a foot down. Just because a corner is banked up to verticle, it doesn't make it super easy. I have the scars to prove it.

Our local track has a flat last corner and there is a ABA Pro national there this year. We have more accidents on the banked corners than we do in the flat.

Also, I hear all this "there is no racing in corners" stuff. With the asphalt/concrete corners you can race harder into the corners and pedal through them. Our first corner at the local is the length of some tracks straight aways and you can pedal the whole thing. We get people 4 wide in there at times. You carry all your speed through the corner and into the doubles for some good air. Nothing slow about this track.

I still ride and race and have seen how things have changed over the years. I think a blend of old and new would be great. It comes down to todays riders are very well skilled, but, todays skills are different than years ago, and also our old skills are good for old style tracks. There for some of us have progressed and can ride todays tracks. But many old skills have died because it is not needed. Ask a young kid to do a bunny hop without being clipped in, or a full speed power slide. How cool would it be if a rider needed those old skills plus todays. We all wanted a jump filled track in the old days, now thats how it is. We wanted to go faster so now berms are paved and the whole track is so smooth. I for my self would like a blend of both and have some old school sections, like full speed into a flat hairpin that you have to lock up the back wheel and pitch a slide. Everyone talks about how a track flows, does it have to? It has been asked before "What is BMX?" My .02 is a bicycle race on a dirt track and obstcles made of dirt. Now fill in the blanks. I say we make gates for 10 riders, that in itself will change things up and more fun to race and more fun to watch.

Changstar

ok, i finally just called the aba, they were fairly positive i could get the thing sanctioned. i heard way more yes than no.

here it is, the piece of land i had in mind. it's between that near fence line and those houses in the background. way the heck out in the country, but it is park land. talked to the head of the park deal, he said i may be able to talk in front of city council meeting mid january.

lead- ore those freakin concrete turns? holy skinned knees batman!

OMG! I had no idea concrete berms existed, thats insane. Wouldn't wanna fall thats forsure.

I've raced new school and old school tracks (of course) and despite what some may think, todays tracks aren't as technical because the same speeds aren't reached as old school tracks. There is alot more coasting for some... I will agree with Ted the berms/corners don't require as much technical riding.... I'm not saying there is no skill, because there is. The key is to keep your momentum so you don't have to take your feet off the pedals... Sorry, can't get past the clips.. I'll take my Vans thank you...

I will say this though, I think old school riders are faster than todays... Just my opinion, but I've seen both. This is probably because of the tracks/obsticals... Any dis- believers? buy those Jox Jag videos.....

There is a flip side to all this though to new school riders because this is the way they've adapted to race

brad it's a different style of racing then compared to now, it would be hard to tell who was faster unless we put bubba and kyle bennet back in time on a time machine and put them on a gate with stu and patterson and davidow. let's ask leary or hill or rupe, who are all three still around and have seen old and new, which is faster, i think they would tell you it's comparing apples and oranges.

Serious question...So do you use Stadium tires, or pool tires, for the concrete berms? I would think Knobbies would kill you on those bad boys!

...Motocross is supposed to have ruts to fight your way through!.....We, as racers, dreamed of having smoother berms, but nobody was supposed to actually give it to them! lol (Except in the winter, on the concrete...lol)

If we replace "Faster", with "More Velocity", I think Brad would be correct. I think radar gun type speeds were much higher bitd, because there was room to run. But that is not a dis to the athletes now. They could all kick my arse now. Apples and Oranges to compare the term "Fast". ...They carry less velocity, generally, with less room to spin the cranks out. They are too busy pumping to travel at high speeds....

I want to leave a couple of tracks here uncovered for about a month, to be rained on. Then I want to see the kids have to race the ruts, and find the hot lines! None of this sissy stuff...lol and watch the kids crying, and whining....There's ruts on the track! (I am kidding, go easy, well sort of! lol)

In all serousness, I think a split track OS/NS would be totally cool, and well received by the kids and us old guys. Change up the track from week to week....Kind of like opening up the infield at Daytona for different types of racing.

I like Jase's comments.

...and of course Reilley's...lmao.

Yep, Concrete with steps and doubles jumping into them. It hurts when you fall on them. The track is wide open and fast. I have spun out a 45/16 on the track and could have gone faster with more gear. Big starting hill and big jumps with some room inbetween them.

This picture is taken half way down the starting hill. Thats me in the middle from when I first started back racing.




This track is about as close to old school as I have seen.

The layout is:

First straight is down hill, table, roller, step to large 180 degree left hand turn.

Second straight is 3 sets of doubles (six pack) to very tight 180 degree right hand turn.

Third straight is small triple, 5 rollers, table, 3 rollers to a 90 degree right hand big & flat turn. The turn does have a berm but it is way outside and useless.

Last straight has a table and then a flat run to the finishline.


While you pedal the whole track and I am more tired here than at any other track, it slows you down when you get to the more technical tracks on the National circuit. The track is easy and fast, but doesn't improve your techincal skills when you race it. Everything is easy to clear without much effort.

There are going to be some changes done before the national next year.

Here is some video from October of 2004 that is still on the track website. You have to let them sit to download into the browser.

http://www.bluediamondpark.com/bmx/movies/3135CRM1page.htm


http://www.bluediamondpark.com/bmx/movies/...31-35CRpage.htm

That track looks very fast and very fun. But I think we have lost a bit of scaryness. And those turns look awesome to me as a racer but as a track operator it takes out the element of unpredictability. A dirt turn has imperfections that make the rider have to deal with. You don't get slide outs on paved turns as much. More guys can go for it and take many more lines but who can't go fast through a perfect turn with total traction. I think it is a lost skill taking turns that are unpredictable. BITD we used to watch and say "wow did you see how fast he took that turn and didn't slide out". Now everyone go's fast in turns. Paved turns take out one less factor to deal with and thats why some think it is easier. But you still need to know your lines and keep momentum, but again it is smooth and full traction so one less thing to worry about

I remember the old days when we used to race in three feet of snow at Rancho and Corona. We were so poor, we could not afford knobby tires so we had to use discarded barbwire and wrap it around our bald tires for traction. We usually took the paper plate off the bike and took it home and used it a real dish. Hillage and Geezer were not real poodleheads, they just could not afford shampoo back in the day. Only the rich kids like Spike and Johnny Johnson could afford mullets too!

Scot was considered the OM because nobody made it past the age of 17 back in the day cause the tracks were so tough

Only reason we had hack races was for body heat. We were so poor, when Cash and Carey Matthews and Matt Raymer showed up from Oklahoma, THEY were considered upscale.

I could go on but I have to go back to work but when I come back I will tell you about BUMS....

[ December 21, 2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: reilley1 ]

LOL, if you make it to the nat here in 06 you will have to check out the second corner. It is usually full of black marks as you are carrying so much speed into a super tight corner. Usually the back end breaks loose and you slid a bit. But it is banked enough that the rear end does not get away from you, usually.