We've been insulated by Vet Pro Options

[utmost]

...and I need to add that I've got no problem seeing myself as an expert BMX racer now as well. I chimed in on the constant pop-up thread that comes up every so often like clips/flats, carbon/aluminum/cr-mo, and the like. I just found it interesting that while the 'older Vets going to expert and cruiser issue' is a relatively new one, the same complaints are being lodged that I brought forth from the perspective of being an aging Vet Pro and how I thought there could be a cool solution that really fit both perspectives.

The reality of BMX racing is simply that it is so small in comparison to other mainstream sports (salaries, television, endorsements) that the opinion of 'Once a Pro BMXer, always a Pro BMXer' is way too unrealistic of keeping as many people involved as possible. Sorry Utmost, but that reasoning is flawed when everyone that participates in BMX wants to see it grow as big as some of these other sports that have way more salary paid 'professionals'. Nobody wants to see BMX's numbers drop off just to excuse aging pros from participating in competition. Right now, apparently from the sanctions perspective, there is not enough numbers of aging professionals to support a Sr Vet Pro class for 40+ riders AND do Vet Pro AND single A AND AA.
That being the case, riders like me who still love to race BMX races have no other choice and belong in expert or cruiser as that is all that is offered. I still think the scenario I proposed would work and provide a solution that helps both sides of the perspectives on it (the Sr Vet Open at select nats plus the Grands, backed up close to the older expert motos), but obviously, the sanctions don't.

I wonder what the magic number would have to be? 10 guys? 20 guys? 50? Even at 50 guys old enough to do a 40+ Sr Vet class, do you not see how small that is compared to golf? Baseball? Football? Soccer? Especially when you think of a 'National BMX Racing Series'.

BS, I see your point. Utmost, I understand what you are saying, but the participation just isn't there.

-Madden

BS, i agree with what you said upthread (i get it now, sometimes i'm slow on the uptake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Bill @ this point in time you are probably right about the numbers and participation. But one day, you wait and see. I remember when people thought there would never be a 28+ class, now we have 41 and over. i guess i'll just have to wait for my geritol days for the sanctions to catch up and on. Utmost out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BS]

In hockey, I don't want to play against Wayne Gretzky
In basketball, I don't want to play against Micheal Jordan
In football, I don't want to play against Jerry Rice
In BMX, I don't want to race Maris(in many many years)

It sure would be fun to play a pick-up game once in awhile or race a pro-am but at any time these superstars can turn it on and make us all look like pre-schoolers in a real game or race with something on the line.

So keep protecting us from this happening and have a vet pro class etc.

Why not? If you grew up with Jordan and played high school basketball you might've had to play him. If you were Maris' age you probably would've had to race him at the Worlds when you were 16x or whatever (hypothetically).

What's the definition of "expert"? Maybe in 36 to 40 Expert the definition is Greg Romero, Dale Holmes and John Purse. Maybe the rest of us should all be in Intermediate. All I'm really saying is that Vet Pro was a game changer for sure. It was a paradigm shift. Because Vet Pro exists it has given all us BMX-ing grown-ups a certain sense of entitlement. I can squawk about Todd Parry coming into the class now. Maybe TP is an "expert" and I'm just...not. (I know, it hurts me too!)

[BS]

Here's this: I posit that in 16x the variation in talent is 10 times as wide as it is in 41x. (From the lowest level expert to the highest level expert.) In the grown-up classes the talent gradation is "thinner". It shouldn't be so thin. We should have 50 dudes in there and, by God, some of SHOULD BE moto-fill. In the old-guy classes if we get knocked out of the main we think we should re-class or that they should make another class. Everybody gets to be in a main and if we're not it's NOT FAIR!!! All I'm saying is...maybe it is fair.

What if, the ABA is giving us these classes and letting us stroke our egos just so they can take our money from us! (Conspiracy theory) They sure as heck are!

And to them I say thank you. I got to live a dream for awhile.

[BS]

What if we here on Vintage thought about the rulebook from the perspective of a 16x instead of a 41x?

I had to race Terry Tennette locally as a kid. I had to race Billy Griggs and Darwin Griffin at nationals and now I get to complain because I have to race Todd Parry?

Don't get me wrong, I argued for the 41 & Over classes on here just a few years ago and I'm thankful they exist. I just had to step back and think about what I was saying.

[MaddenBMX]

Well, all I know for sure that if anyone thinks of me in the same way as Gretzky. Jordan. or Rice......then I missed all the money I should've earned! Heck, even if I am somehow equated with Maris, I would be humbly honored.

In all reality though, I'm an aging die hard BMX racer who raced at levels of competition that challenged me constantly. I was a player and a contender in Vet, and now I am a player and a contender in 41 ex. Too many birthdays! It is what it is and time catches EVERYBODY!!!! Even turns them into 'pros' and back to 'ams' as well...........interesting thing, that 'time' aspect, huh?

-Madden

[Weaver]

Great thread. I hate hearing all the whining in the older classes. Bunch of grown men wanting to bag and not race people that are their age for whatever reason.... Lame!

Elvis thinks it should be age group only at nationals

[woodybmx86]

The one flaw I see in your logic thre, BS, is that at 16 or so... the difference between riders isnt the same as it is once they are AA and you stay expert. I raced Jeff Dein as an excpert, he beat me. I beat him. he beat me more than I beat him. but once he went A pro worked his way up and then went AA, he could kill me. Then he quits for several years, comes back as Masters, we race again. I beat him. he beat me more than I beat him, but not even close to the huge difference there was when he was AA and I was expert. BUT, stille a much bigger diffference than when we were both expert.

My bro Brian (sorry gmo) raced MP3. they were top experts together. Mattt beat brian more than brian beat matt, but he did beat him here and there. matt went A pro, Brian stayed AM till he got a national #1, then went A, but Matt by then had gone AA. For years they weren't even close... Brian an A pro, Matt a AA. Brian ended up going Masters, now MP3 is donw in it... guarntee he will kill Brian. compared to when they were both expert... no comparison.

[bystickel]

Combine 'em all and let folks battle it out. Have a consolation main, if the rider count demands it. After a while, it'll be cool to say you can in 14th, because you were 18th the year before.

Eventually, everybody will carry cheap, tiny GPS data aquisition units (today's transponders are cheap) and we can use these for BMX bracket racing. Qualify going all-out. If you sandbag and break out (go too fast by a big margin) in the motos or main, you're DQed. If you're consistently running as fast as the class above, you're upgraded.

[camel]

Right on, BS.

So should 19-27 Ex be made to race A Pro? Now that would be a class to watch. It would be a true weed-out class.

You and I are the same age. When we were 16 expert, you could fill a gate with future AAs or people who beat the future AAs. That is why it was a very big deal if I even made a national main.

What is an expert? I think there is a set of skills and abilities that you could loosely define as expertise in BMX racing. If Malcolm Gladwell got it right, then you'd need 10,000 total hours of intensive BMX practice/training to acquire true expertise. Hmmm. I think anyone who can stay motivated enough to keep training to improve can eventually find themselves in the main with whomever reclasses to expert.

[azaussie]

Combine 'em all and let folks battle it out. Have a consolation main, if the rider count demands it. After a while, it'll be cool to say you can in 14th, because you were 18th the year before.

Eventually, everybody will carry cheap, tiny GPS data aquisition units (today's transponders are cheap) and we can use these for BMX bracket racing. Qualify going all-out. If you sandbag and break out (go too fast by a big margin) in the motos or main, you're DQed. If you're consistently running as fast as the class above, you're upgraded.

We kinda did this back in the day without the technology. Our local track had about 150 riders on race day and at the start of the session we let everyone race in age groups but we gave the age groups a letter (e.g. (17 and over were group A, etc) . If you won your group you raced up in the next higher group the next week (or whenever you raced next) and if ya come in last you drop down a group the next week. This motivated the older guys not to be beaten by the younger guys and it motivated the younger guys to beat the older guys. After about 4 weeks the racing was awesome - skills improved and it seemed like everyone got faster.

Some parents were very upset that their little sandbagger could no longer win every weekend but our club produced several State champions that year and a couple national champs...

This post has been edited by azaussie: Dec 9 2010, 09:20 PM