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Click here to view this topic in its original format _ Freestyle BMX _ I've been collecting for a bit more than 5 years now, but check this out

Posted by: twintoptuber Apr 30 2007, 07:02 PM

Ebay sent me a "birthday" card wishing me a Happy 5 year anniversary to Ebay, woohoo! I was thinking back to when I first started in the hobby and here are a few things for those who remember and to those now who may laugh at this:

- We were still trying to figure out the colors of RL20-II's and how they were built.

- Ditto on Haro's..... forget 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation Master, we barely knew '84 from '85.

- Nobody was reproducing decals

- All the exotic framesets were basically 'undiscovered'

- We would shop here and pay these crazy expensive prices:

- If 5 of us were on the boards, it was crazy. 10 people meant 5 were tired with bmx and came over to read/laugh/mock/taunt/color tires, lol.

- Axlepeg was the man with his pics..... and still is.

- If you told the bmx guys a pink bike would win best of show at Rockford, there would be an 8 page thread full of "LOL! LMAO! Hahahaha, just threw one out, color tires!, etc..." Bob O said it best a year ago at the banquet table

- And most importantly, there were more threads about "Just built this....check it out"

Posted by: DansHaros Apr 30 2007, 07:36 PM

There should be more "just built this....check it out" threads! Nice post James.

Posted by: Keep_It_Warm Apr 30 2007, 07:53 PM

Yes, that WAS a cool post James.

(I'm scared in here! I'm heading back to the safety of the BMX Forum)

Posted by: DansHaros Apr 30 2007, 08:14 PM

Its OK Tom, we understand!

Posted by: lou Apr 30 2007, 08:30 PM

5 of us were on the boards
Half of them isn`t around anymore. The collecting was different, the builds were different, the people were different, and the bashing became more. lol.

Posted by: 2FRESH May 1 2007, 03:37 AM

Believe it or not, some of us still shop at alan's.. cause it's actually cheaper.

Posted by: twintoptuber May 1 2007, 06:05 AM

Always like Alans and when I found his old site links, it inspired this post. Look at the prices from 4-5 years ago, shoulda woulda coulda comes to mind.

Posted by: Pauly May 1 2007, 10:59 AM

I've been around it for 3.5 years now. I always remember looking at Alan's, Skatepool, Vert-ego etc. and thinking they were way too expensive... now they are pretty much the only source for some parts.

Who else was around who remembers the origin of Hutch Lake? Do you have that aerospeed auction archived James? lol.

Posted by: pituk May 1 2007, 11:12 AM

How were prices pre-ebay ? I'm sure many people use ebay as a reference for value now , but they did not have that back then.

Posted by: Pauly May 1 2007, 11:24 AM

pre-ebay? That would go back to 1996 or 97. I don't think any of the stuff we collect now was considered "vintage" quite yet. The mid-90s would have been the ideal time to clean up at old shops and such... I'm sure they would have been glad to be rid of all the obsolete NOS garbage parts... LOL.

Posted by: xclr8ted May 1 2007, 11:30 AM

For me pre-ebay was just cleaning up whatever bikes/parts I had leftover from the 80's........It was until i discovered thsi site and ebay when I started buying used/NOS stuff. Great post!

Posted by: BridgeCityBikes May 1 2007, 11:38 AM

AOL was just taking hold in late 94, early 95. ebay was in full swing by late 95. no picture listings or feedback system. folks were real honest and cool.
my vintage bikes were still viable daily riders. doh.

Posted by: Smokin Endo May 1 2007, 11:42 AM

been 3 years for me and boy have I seen things change ! Prices Personalities Sites Bikes Events ! You name it ! Cool thread James ! Happy Anniversary

Posted by: MJ May 1 2007, 02:00 PM

Some of us go WAY back to the DansComp board days.
Early on, on eBay many sales were finalized via phone calls and overnighted payments.
I remember when you could get major scores on ebay from items listed incorrectly. Those of us "in the know" would include "old school bmx" in every auction title so that the other collectors could find it. Back then if you had a page or two of auctions to look at you were lucky.

Posted by: jay47 May 1 2007, 04:48 PM

Great thread ,oh the memories, when i started collecting ,must have been late 99/2000 ,bought my first bike (haro sport) through a magazine ad ,no computor....all done over the phone .Your dead right James ,1st,2nd ,3rd gen?????,i remember getting the sport and wondering why the hell it had Bob Haro on the chainstays ,just couldn't understand it ,what happened to Mike dominguez??.I didn't join VBMX till late on ,but was always there hanging around Graeme's house checking out this site and looking on ebay till early hours in the morning.Its amazing what i have learn't through this site and reading and studying magazines over and over again,I know more about BMX now ,than i did when i was a kid.I'm just glad i started collecting early ,i couldn't afford to buy the bikes i have now if i was starting up.Anyway ,Happy 5th Birthday and may it go on for many more............

Posted by: twintoptuber May 1 2007, 06:55 PM

LOL, that Hutch Lake auction was a riot!!! I remember the bidding went over $1.2 million dollars with 5 days remaining, lmao.

Another part of why I started this thread was from a few conversations I've had with people over the last few months and my personal perspective as well. For example, somebody posts a picture of a Kuwahara Exhibitionist and I know most people think "cool", but we've seen it before. Then I start to think of it globally as it may be only the 20th known frameset to exist out of....500/1000 made? I had to step back and think of all the bikes posted here in any given month and what does it average? 15 bikes, max? So, out of the millions of people who know about Ebay, Craigslist, bmx sites, etc.... we all can barely account for less than 1%-2% of all vintage freestyle?

What I'm trying to say is yes, in 5 years I've seen just about every example of vintage freestyle (that CW stem Sac owns is just killer) BUT it took 5 years of research, reading, gatherings, friends, collectors, etc.... to provide it. Wow, it took all of us collectively a half a decade to dig out 3 years ('84-'86) of world wide manufacturing from 20 years ago. Small small numbers from such a large grouping of people........ so I have a new appreciation of this CW build, that purple Pro Performer, his '86 blue Haro Master.

This may sound cheesy to a few people and if the bottom falls out tonight with value/pricing, who cares, as I really believe we're all a part of something special. Doesn't matter what the Olympics may do, ESPN showcases, how the tricks evolve or what we may still own in the year 2024, we love and collect the roots of it all.

To another 5 years!

Posted by: lou May 1 2007, 07:00 PM

VBMX will be on ESPN right after the poker games.

Posted by: hutchhound May 1 2007, 08:10 PM


Posted by: 2FRESH May 2 2007, 04:28 AM

Does anybody else besides me care for the years '88-89? I often get the feeling that those are the years everyone wants to forget/could care less about.
I think there was plenty of cool stuff still happening in bikes, parts, magazines, videos and especially the tricks that really started to happen compared to the earlier styles.

For us that didn't catch on until '88, the late 80's era means everything but at times it sounds like the '84-86 collecting majority wants to forget all about the late 80's. Why? Well, i know "why" but all i'm trying to say is that there was life after the three golden years for some of us.

I am always very interested in the stuff/stories of the early days of the 80's although i didn't ride yet back then and in that sense can't directly relate to it. But, i have the appreciation for it.

It's been 3½ yars of collecting for me, i've learned alot and now know much more than i ever thought i would. It's been rewarding but also very frustrating at times.


Posted by: twintoptuber May 2 2007, 07:37 AM


What you may be finding is this site as well as others are geared to a certain era of design. The late '80s, from a design perspective, were not as 'exciting', new, or ground breaking as the early mid '80s. The tricks and complexity of such really exploded, but the perceived bike design of most imploded.

[ May 02, 2007, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: twintoptuber ]

Posted by: TravisW May 2 2007, 07:49 AM

I think from about '86 until the early 90's, a lot of the design went in different directions. From 82-86 came the initial burst of new freestyle-specific frame designs. Most of the big advances in the bikes from 87-90 seem to have been in the realm of components (no less important than frames, mind you, but a lot less obvious).

Posted by: Smokin Endo May 2 2007, 08:09 AM

jay... Funny you bring Graeme's name up, I remember very early on (for me) seeing pics from his collection as well as James's (TTT) and thinking "YEAH OK" I'm never going to have a fraction of that stuff. I was totally mesmerized and intrigued, I remember thinking "Where can I find more BMX without using eBay ? which lead me to other means of collecting IE:Sales adverts in local news papers, bike shops, swap meets, second hand stores, word of mouth..... which in turn gave me a better understanding as to how earlier collecting was like without eBay. I must say that I did WAY better collecting that way but just like anything else, supplies run short , shops close up, you find what's mostly in your area and your finished... then you find yourself back on eBay LOL

I can't image this hobby without the internet. Although I do know how to resource bikes and parts without eBay I find it to be a helpful resource at times and a double edged blade at others.

James... I must say that I totally agree with you on this one. I think it's funny that we all think certain things are rare and will spend a bundle on them but when it comes to some real rarities we sometimes dodge the bullet. For example a Black NOS Tuff Neck out of the bag in mint shape, this is a part that will fetch up to about $250 ? NO ? On a weird occasion you might even see it shot up over $300 and YES we have even seen it happen... A $500 Tuff Neck but this is a part that was manufactured for almost 10 years without a change in the over all design so just how rare is it ? Then the same week someone will run a Kuwahara Exhibitionist with an $800 reserve and it will go off with out the reserve being meet. I think this is funny cause the Tuff Neck sold new for $14.99 and now pulls down 10 20 sometimes over 30 times it's original selling price and they made THOUSANDS of them but then the Kuwi that was only made for 1 year can barely pull down 4 times it's original selling value of around $200. And just how many Kuwi's were made ? I bet they made more Tuff necks that year alone in BLACK

Anyway I also agree with you on the bottom falling out of it ! I could TOTALLY CARE LESS ! I love these bikes and so do the members of my family and not to sound like a hoarder but I have over 30 bikes and the end is NO WHERE in site for me. I'm pathetic, I keep saying I'm going to take a brake and concentrate on a few other hobbies I have things to finish up in but I constantly find my self right back here ! I LOVE THIS $H!T for myself and the feeling I get when I'm behind those handle bars and until that feeling changes my bikes and there value will always remain the same ! PRICELESS ! (To me anyway)

Lastly on my morning rant LOL Timo... I love 87 88 89, they are all monumental years in Freestyle ! WOW when the 990's came in so did all the rolling tricks and the AIR's AHWWWWW the AIRS ! Dominguez never aired like he did on a DB... and there were so many new bikes to choose from. I am the first guy to voice his opinion when the conversation arises about "What's OLD SCHOOL ?" In 1989 they were still making FULL WRAP FLIGHTs and $600 Profile Box cranks so how can you disregard or discredit those years from what we are doing here by saying that it was over in 86 ? I love the later stuff and have a decent amount of it in my collection. I just think that for some the closer you get to the end, well... the closer you are to the end and they don't want to associate themselves with the era that was to become know of as the End of a Lifestyle


Posted by: Pauly May 2 2007, 08:35 AM

Timo, for me 87 was a peak year both for bike design and my interest in riding.

1987 is my favorite year for bicycle design. All the right geometries were perfected IMO and most of the worthless standing platforms and other gimmicks were finally called out and mostly eliminated. I rode quite a bit in 88 but I never got around to renewing my magazine subscriptions after 87.

1987 is also when I got my drivers license. I bought a 1978 Pontiac Bonneville with a very spacious trunk. My bike was always kept in the trunk. Unfortunately my riding seriously slowed down after that point. In 1989 I rode it every day, but just to my job and back. After that it hung in the garage until 2003. I think that's the story for many of us.

Cars killed the BMX star....

Posted by: twintoptuber May 2 2007, 09:34 AM

It's tough pulling up to a girl's house on your Ozone and telling her to hop on the back pegs.

[ May 02, 2007, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: twintoptuber ]

Posted by: Bedlam Bikes May 2 2007, 09:36 AM

Pretty much the entire sport collapsed in late 1988. MOST bikes from that time were almost as bad as "department store junk" and it was being manufactured by our favorite companies in an effort to be competitive with eachother. There were only a select few high end complete bikes being produced at that time. The Haro Master was one of them and in my area (southern New England) literally 90% of all good riders were on Haro Masters. There were no complete Hutches worth mentioning, the Diamond Backs were pretty cheesy, the second gen GT's were ok, but a lot of people seemed turned off by the design, etc...
Sure there were a few good bikes around (Ozone comes to mind!) but the pickings were slim and the cheap componets being produced seemed to discredit the quality of some of the orginal companies. Add in the fact that tons of people were getting out of the sport at that time and the end result is less interest in those bikes today. I got out in early 1989 and I dont have a huge interest for Ozones and later frames like the Hoffmans, etc...

The whole "birth" of the sport is what gets the most attention today as far as collectability is concerned. For instance, I dont think the stuff from the mid 90's will ever be as collectable as the early 80's stuff... MOST of the people who got into riding and rode the mid 90's stuff as their first bikes just aren't as passionate about the sport due to the fact they weren't into it during its birth. There is something special about be involved with a sport from DAY ONE that will always hold a special place in our hearts.

Another thing worth mentioning is in the mid 1990's riding was more about..well the riding... and nearly NO attention was given to the look of the bike, showmanship, etc... Grundge was "in" and the bikes had a certain homeless, colorless, grundge look to them as well. The 1980's was about neon, flash and often form over function. That's what makes a special show bike today.

Posted by: Axlepeg May 2 2007, 11:39 AM

Ha! Good thread.
Happy eBirthday, Twin.
I definately feel the change of atmosphere here on the board.
The threads that drew me in were where the topic was a question and the next several pages where just a bunch of guys sharing personal experiences to get to the answer...piecing together a puzzle of sorts. Now, a newbie asks the same question and it can usually be answered in a kurt, one or two response thread - sans nostalgia.
I still very much like visiting here, however, and hope to still be doing so in five years (where will the hobby be then, I wonder?).


Posted by: rockabillyjay May 2 2007, 07:28 PM

..TIMO, you're not alone...87 is my fave year too..the early stuff is cool and I would love to collect it all, I started freestylin in about 83/4 but 87-90 is where I came into my own as a rider and my fave years by far...till the K made tricks to hard ! JK!

Posted by: humidity saC May 3 2007, 01:23 AM

Wow! Great Thread guys! This is cool to see we old schoolers have a lot in common when it comes to our passion in collecting...or as I prefer to call it, PRESERVING Vintage BMX/Freestyle bikes.

There is something special about being involved with a sport from DAY ONE that will always hold a special place in our hearts.
Bedlam, you are so right man! I think the reason we are willing to pay the crazy prices for some of the parts is because it is more intimate to us - it was part of us from the beginning.

We remember the rush we got when we got the complimentary first issue of Freestylin' just because we had a BMXA subscription. Man, the next three years Freestyle just exploded. All the new products, all the newly sponsored riders. The contests. I had more heros of freestyle riders than BMX racers, yet I had raced more than I was freestyling. It just isn't the same for me with 87-89 bikes. Yes, I still dig them, but I won't bid as high as I will on 83-86 stuff.

There was a certain "fun" about freestyling that I couldn't get from my race bike. In High School, I rode with my friends as much as possible!! In fact, a really cool thing is that now, 20+ years later, most of these guys I rode with are members of Vintage BMX: STRIKE, KingofPipeline, Ditchweed, and a few others. I now live 1000 miles away from them, but we still email about bikes all the time and I see them on here all the time. It's almost like we never stopped riding/talking about the bikes.

We did trick shows, traveled to competitions, we went wherever Haro, Dyno, GT, CW, Hutch Tour shows were. WE did it all. We lived, ate, and slept Freestyle.

And now, ummmm I am getting nuts with my collecting. My wife doesn't understand it. My first bike I got as a "collector" was my '81 JMC Long. Back in '88 I was working at a bike shop during college and this dude came in and wanted to trade it in for a mtn bike. We didn't take trades, but I HAD to have that bike. He barely rode it. We made a deal and that baby was mine! I haven't touched (other that polishing the chrome) that bike since I have owned it in '88. It is going to the Rock this year in full Survivor form.

From 88 to about 2004, I would just pick up a bike if I happen to run by it. Now, I spend a lot of time on ebay and I have hit almost every bike shop in Colorado for parts and/or referrals. Needless to say, I have a LOT more bikes!!! Half of my basement is my "Preservation of BMX." The other half is my workshop to preserve them. I love all of it.
I love finding the NOS score at a bike shop, or getting the old school junker score for $20 that has one good part on it that you can use on another bike. It still feels good. Yeah, sometimes the ebay buy costs too much and we have to wonder, WHY did I pay that?
To sum that up, James says it best: we are just a few collectors out there and we all own a slice of BMX History. That cannot be replaced, nor can I put a value on it. Some of the stuff is now SO rare. That 1984 1st gen Master that Dan posted last week almost made me cry. I had one of those BITD and had NO IDEA of how few of them were built. Of course, I sold mine in '85 to buy the new design. Now it looks as though in all the members on here, only two '84 1st gen Masters are known to still exist. Dan, you own a VERY RARE piece of freestyle history! Here I'm thinking I'll run by one someday. Now I know better. So Dan, if you ever get tired of admiring that bike, send me a PM! LOL.

Endo, funny you mention the Kuwie and how it wouldn't even sell on ebay, yet a simple black Tuff Neck fetches $300. How aggravating is that? And to see Trick Stars going for $500-700 all beat up??? Granted, the TS is one of the all-time cool Freestlye bikes, but "rare" it was not.

The last point I wanted to talk about is Rockford. Last year was the first year I went and I was just blown away by the rare and quality builds. The bikes were awesome, but best part was meeting a lot of the members. It's like we have this brotherhood we don't even know about. We all share this love and passion for preserving BMX. It is vital that we have a venue to meet and share our slice of BMX history with each other. It pushes us. It fires us up. We get motivated to complete that "other bike" we've been meaning to finish. Or we find someone that has that last part you've been looking for! A lot of us put in a ton of blood, sweat, tears, and of course, $$$$$ into this, but it is all worth it in the end. And to be able to share our stories and show our bikes at Rockford is a real treat.


[ May 03, 2007, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: humidity saC ]

Posted by: bmxmom May 3 2007, 05:30 AM

great thread but ixnay the hyping of 89 would ya? i hope to acquire a bike from that year at some point and the fact that it does not seem to be one of the hot years makes me think it might be possible. once i get a bike you can go for it but hold off for now k?

Posted by: akcuda May 3 2007, 11:40 AM

Yeah, you're not kidding. There was very little activity on this side of the site 5 years ago.

I'm another one who prefers the older FS bikes. It's like Jeff said--we remember these bikes when they were the newest big thing. Many were made in the USA earlier on which is a big plus IMO. I can only think of a few 87's I'm into although I do like a lot of midschool race bikes.

The rarity vs. price thing can be explained by supply and demand as usual. A lot more people out there are hunting for a black Tuf Neck compared to those seeking an Exhibitionist. Prices on those seem to have jumped up recently to where they deserve to be (one of the top 10 FS designs IMO).

I'm sure I'll still be checkin' out this site every day for many years to come. There's way too much good stuff to miss out on!

Posted by: mikkopeters May 3 2007, 03:15 PM

Congrats James!
In the stone age of the freestyle forum, there really were just a handful of people posting. There were a couple MN guys- STRIKE and WDS178 and a few others. He11, even Elvis would drop in to say hello. I would have never thought that it would get to this level, and I think it's going to get a bigger before it cools down. There are still many guys that rode that are just turning 30. Ha!
Rockford is going to be great for freestyle this year. I can only imagine who is going to show up and I look forward to clinking bottles with all of you.
sAc, meeting you was a highlight last year!!! All you southern MN guys are cool.
TIMO, you gotta come over one of these years!
I hope to meet even more of you at the Rock this year, it's going to be rad!
Viva VBMX and the freestyle forum!

Posted by: mnewxcv May 8 2007, 06:58 PM

oh you guys! ok ok , come here

Posted by: humidity saC May 8 2007, 10:54 PM

Mikko, you KNOW I'll be ready to hang with ya! You still want a DVD of the first KOV contest from Le Seur, MN?

Posted by: redline j May 8 2007, 10:57 PM

Good to see your passion is still there Twin. You were one of the original "big spenders" who dropped some house payments to get that little piece of freestyle history. Keep spending brother!

Posted by: Hudson May 8 2007, 11:18 PM

Sup going to rosevill this weekend?

Posted by: STRIKE May 9 2007, 03:21 AM

Great thread guys!

Posted by: twintoptuber May 9 2007, 05:17 AM

Yes! A little retrospective thread pulls Jack out of the vintage freestyle collector's mothball box Good seeing you on the boards again and let's start up the vintage freestyle machine again. Lots of new guys, freestyle oriented guest speakers at shows, new personal websites celebrating vintage, etc... Every new build, new discovery, ..... nostalgia thread, .... help a new guy ID this, .... help this, etc. increases our community.

Hoping we can encourage all the new members to start building/posting their bikes.

Posted by: redline j May 9 2007, 10:51 PM

Isn't it interesting how even a hobby like ours has changed in just a short period of time? Pretty soon the 2000 model year bikes will be "vintage", LOL...
Someone else in this thread said in best in my opinion. He said that the reason us 30-40 year old freestylers/collectors are more nostalgic is because we were involved when the sport was just emerging. We were idolizing (and trying to imitate) guys like Bob Haro, RL, Eddie Fiola, Martin Aparijo, Woody, Dominguez, etc... The list could go on forever. Every new trick was iconic. Everything was new and original. And, you couldn't help but love the neon colors.
Anyway, I agree. Let's break out the big checkbooks and get back to our early days of collecting. It's time to drop a few grand on a rare NOS freestyle frame, and get started again! Unfortunately the supply of any real rare stuff seems to be drying up.
Nice to hear from you again, and don't worry. I still have a few projects in the hopper. I still have boxes of bike parts just waiting to be built.